US Federal Government Shutdown | Shutdown Shutdown, Debt Ceiling Raised

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From an interview with the chairman of World Fuel Services, Paul Stebbins:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-brought-the-debt-limit-mess-onto-themselves/

LD: But wait, was there ever really a happy time when everything worked smoothly in Washington?

PS: When I worked in Congress, for a guy named Tim Wirth, back then, if you were a young freshman Congressman, and you picked up the sword and argued with the Speaker of the House, your parking space would be in Anacostia, you'll be on the dog catcher committee, you'd you would get no money from the party, so you better sit down, shut up, and listen, because you don't know anything, you're low on the totem pole. Now today, John Boehner, if he tries to punish one of these firebrands coming out of the conservative wing of his caucus, they wear it as a badge of honor. Look, I had the chairman of the Energy and Commerce committee, Fred Upton, tell me that he got into an argument with one of these young guys on his committee about the defunding of Affordable Care Act. Well the argument was 'look, Energy and Commerce had 50 hearings on that bill. Like it or not, it passed. The president signed it. The Supreme Court upheld it. So you don't get to pick a bill you don't like and link it to the entire financial well being of the United States.' Well the response is, 'I didn't come here to govern.' Well what did you come here for? What did you come here for? To burn it to the ground?
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Bamelin said:
Should the executive branch circumvent the House via illegal means, it will justify (to them and their power base) everything they have been saying about Obama. It could also lead to very ugly civil strife.

Again I think the Republican Tea Party Members are in full idiot mode. With that said, you can't take a chunk of your government and brand them traitors due to ideological differences .... no matter if those ideologies are paralysing the government. Not unless you enjoy the road to an authoritative state where rights and rule of law mean nothing.
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What the Republican Tea Party ideologues are doing meets the legal definition of sedition. It's not the same thing as treason.
 
FlashFlooder said:
While it may not do anything to resolve the debt you've already accrued, it is the ONLY way to ensure that you (the compulsive spender) will not get yourself into the same predicament just as soon as you've handled the current crisis.
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Well, it's more akin to cutting up the credit cards AND the bills when you get them and pretending they don't exist.

So it just destroys your credit rating so that you can only borrow from that PayDay Lender down the street at 25%. And he'll break your damn legs if you can't pay him back.

Oh, and those credit cards you cut up? Your significant other FORCED you to get them and they are now the ones forcing you to cut them up. And you still need to borrow money next year, and the year after. So all you're really doing is self-destructing your credit to spite your financial situation.

What I'm saying is this, we really need to be concerned for Republican noses.
 
FlashFlooder said:
While it may not do anything to resolve the debt you've already accrued, it is the ONLY way to ensure that you (the compulsive spender) will not get yourself into the same predicament just as soon as you've handled the current crisis.
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Oh boy.

I don't know where to start, so here's the simplest question: what would happen if you refused to pay your credit card bill? Just rang up the company and said you won't pay?
 
FlashFlooder said:
While it may not do anything to resolve the debt you've already accrued, it is the ONLY way to ensure that you (the compulsive spender) will not get yourself into the same predicament just as soon as you've handled the current crisis.
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You don't have a money-printing machine in your basement that you can use to pay your debt on a whim (or to deflate or inflate the debt).

Stop using household comparisons, they don't work when you have monetary sovereignty.

If I have a credit card debt of $10,000, and I have a money printing machine, I can print $10,000 any time I want to pay it off. I can print $10,000,000,000,000, not pay my debt, and use the $10,000,000,000,000 for other purposes, thus deflating the value of the nominal $10,000 debt I have to such an extent that it's meaningless. I can destroy the money printing machine and discontinue the dollar and suddenly I've made all debts accumulated in that currency meaningless.
 
Maybe some movement coming from Obama:
A White House official says President Barack Obama has invited congressional leaders to the White House Wednesday for a meeting on the government shutdown.

The official says Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, House Speaker John Boehner, and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi have been invited to the meeting. The official says Obama will urge the House to pass a spending bill to allow the government to reopen.

Boehner spokesman Brendan Buck: “We’re pleased the president finally recognizes that his refusal to negotiate is indefensible. It’s unclear why we’d be having this meeting if it’s not meant to be a start to serious talks between the two parties.”
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I don't why he's optimistic. The president is not going to gut or delay Obamacare, unless the GOP is so desperate at this point, they'll settle for the medical device tax.
 
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
Maybe some movement coming from Obama:
A White House official says President Barack Obama has invited congressional leaders to the White House Wednesday for a meeting on the government shutdown.

The official says Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, House Speaker John Boehner, and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi have been invited to the meeting. The official says Obama will urge the House to pass a spending bill to allow the government to reopen.
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From my understanding the meeting will be to confirm his unwillingness to negotiate with the debt ceiling and goverment shutdown over his head. Pass the CR, raise the debt limit and he'll agree to discuss business through normal legeslative avenues.
 
This is like that episode of South Park where Canada went on strike and the kids begged the UN to give them something so they could save face.
 
Fenderputty said:
From my understanding the meeting will be to confirm his unwillingness to negotiate with the debt ceiling and goverment shutdown over his head. Pass the CR, raise the debt limit and he'll agree to discuss business through normal legeslative avenues.
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Where did you get that understanding?
 
BertramCooper said:
I think it has to do more with the mainstream media defaulting to their middle-of-the-road-at-all-times style of journalism even though Republicans have driven off the road and into a fucking gorge.

That Al Jazeera America editorial from yesterday nailed it.
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I'm on my phone so I can't search in the thread but does anyone have a link handy to that editorial? I'd really like to read it and see if it would be a good summary to send to some friends who are a little confused.
 
Fenderputty said:
From my understanding the meeting will be to confirm his unwillingness to negotiate with the debt ceiling and goverment shutdown over his head. Pass the CR, raise the debt limit and he'll agree to discuss business through normal legeslative avenues.
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Most likely. No way in hell Obama is going to cave already. But he's talking now at least.
 
Veitsev said:
Its not optimism. Its posturing. He knows Obama is not going to negotiate.
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Oh I know, he's saying this publicly while packing his wallet extra full so that Obama's spanking doesn't hurt too bad.

And when he comes out of the meeting there will be more ridiculous posturing.
 
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
Most likely. No way in hell Obama is going to cave already. But he's talking now at least.
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I'd like to know what there is to talk about? Unless it's to try to reiterate he's not budging on this and hoping that it gets through the thick skulls of the GOP leadership. If Obama goes and surrenders he'll be the biggest political joke in decades.
 
Veitsev said:
Its not optimism. Its posturing. He knows Obama is not going to negotiate.
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While this definitely seems to be the case why hold the meeting at all, when you know the post-meeting spin is guaranteed to be "Obama wasted our time since he's still not willing to get both parties to come together amicably", yadda, yadda, yadda. I mean, whats Obama's plan here? Besides not to give these assholes an inch?
 
Boehner spokesman Brendan Buck: “We’re pleased the president finally recognizes that his refusal to negotiate is indefensible. It’s unclear why we’d be having this meeting if it’s not meant to be a start to serious talks between the two parties.”
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Can I punch Brendan Buck in the face?
 
slit said:
Good, I hope that's true. The Dems cannot cave at this point.
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I would literally throw up if they caved.

The precedent being set if they were to allow any concession is basically so disgusting that it makes me sick.

Time is all it will take for the public at large to see through the crap. It's a simple narrative. Republicans are using extortion tactics by way of withholding the passage of legislation to keep the government operating in order to ransom changes to legislation they don't like but don't have the democratic majority needed to do so constitutionally.
 
NullPointer said:
While this definitely seems to be the case why hold the meeting at all, when you know the post-meeting spin is guaranteed to be "Obama wasted our time since he's still not willing to get both parties to come together amicably", yadda, yadda, yadda. I mean, whats Obama's plan here? Besides not to give these assholes an inch?
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Making it clear what his position is so that this charade comes to an end as quickly as possible. Refusing to meet with Republicans entirely is the worse move. Republicans are already using that spin.
 
slit said:
I'd like to know what there is to talk about? Unless it's to try to reiterate he's not budging on this and hoping that it gets through the thick skulls of the GOP leadership. If Obama goes and surrenders he'll be the biggest political joke in decades.
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The weather is always a good start. And then go from there.
 
NullPointer said:
While this definitely seems to be the case why hold the meeting at all, when you know the post-meeting spin is guaranteed to be "Obama wasted our time since he's still not willing to get both parties to come together amicably", yadda, yadda, yadda. I mean, whats Obama's plan here? Besides not to give these assholes an inch?
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He's flexing his muscles.

He doesn't want to be seen as useless in the process, so he's showing that he can call all these guys who are at each other throats into a tiny room for a closed door meeting because he's the President.
 
Obama can't compromise. It's an awful precedent that will haunt him and all his successors if he does. This is political blackmail, nothing more.
 
marrec said:
He's flexing his muscles.
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I like this answer even if it still comes across as a useless but feel-good measure.

The same with responding to Republican spin about not talking. They'll spin it however they want afterwards. Hell, these are Republicans. They can spin it as Obama not wanting to meet mere moments after walking out of a meeting if they wanted to.

Making it crystal clear to the American people and the House that there will be zero negotiations whatsoever until the government is funded seems like the way to go.
 
NullPointer said:
While this definitely seems to be the case why hold the meeting at all, when you know the post-meeting spin is guaranteed to be "Obama wasted our time since he's still not willing to get both parties to come together amicably", yadda, yadda, yadda. I mean, whats Obama's plan here? Besides not to give these assholes an inch?
Click to expand...

To try to bring some reason to the situation by meeting in person and discussing things face to face? It does have an effect.

Even if you know you're being a spiteful dick, sometimes, simply meeting with someone and being told face to face can make a difference.

"Look, if you pass a clean, continuing resolution, I will personally see to it that the medical device tax/mandate/obamacare repeals are brought to a vote. I can not tell you that those votes will go your way, nor that I would not repeal such a bill were it to pass, but I can tell you that you'll get to offer up your changes, and to do it cleanly, properly, and without red tape.

We have disputes on legislative and budgetary matters. Deal with the budgetary matters without using procedural exploits to push a legislative agenda, and your legislative agenda will be brought up without procdurally being impeded"

Committee leaders, majority leaders, the president pro tempore, and the speaker of the house have a lot of procedural power, and frankly, it muddies the waters. Agree to do things the clean and fair way, appeal to reason, and you might convince people.

Shouldn't need to be brought up, but we wouldn't be in a predicament in the first place if that were the case.
 
BertramCooper said:
Obama has no reason to and is in no position to compromise. He has the votes to pass the clean CR in the House. All he needs is Boehner to finally cave and bring it to the floor for a vote.
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It's pretty obvious he's doing this as an almost cynical response to the criticism that he is not involved in the process and not speaking to anyone. You're probably right. He's just going to say what he's always said. No negotiation.

pigeon said:
You know that's not really the problem. If there's one thing you and I can agree on, it's that Obama loves to talk.
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Yes, he does. But, I'm not so sure he likes to listen. Other than listening to our phone calls, he doesn't strike me as the listening type. That's one thing Bush was good at. Listening.
To Dick Cheney
 
If Obama and Reid cave on this, it will be the end of our democracy as we know it because of the precedent it sets. Our government will become less useful than the goddamn UN Security Council. At this point, I am having an honestly difficult time distinguishing the actions of Republicans from terrorism and crimes against democracy.
 
Shake Appeal said:
Oh boy.

I don't know where to start, so here's the simplest question: what would happen if you refused to pay your credit card bill? Just rang up the company and said you won't pay?
Click to expand...

The entire point of my response (and I feel I was pretty clear about it) is this:

While you are correct that the 'cutting the credit card' approach will do nothing to solve the current crisis, it (or something like it) is a necessary step if we are ever going to get back to the days of responsible spending by our government. This whole "they can print money, therefore have a blank check" mentality is only going to dig us deeper and deeper into a hole.

So again, "cutting the card" won't help us avoid this crisis but it will help us avoid this same crisis next year, and the next...

So, to answer your simple question. I guess the credit card company would send me to collections after a while, and then I'd declare bankruptcy and my debt would be forgiven. Where does that leave us?


What does that have to do with cutting up your BILL?

You need to pay the bill.
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I never said anything about cutting up the bill. Please read what I actually wrote.

Well, it's more akin to cutting up the credit cards AND the bills when you get them and pretending they don't exist.

So it just destroys your credit rating so that you can only borrow from that PayDay Lender down the street at 25%. And he'll break your damn legs if you can't pay him back.

Oh, and those credit cards you cut up? Your significant other FORCED you to get them and they are now the ones forcing you to cut them up. And you still need to borrow money next year, and the year after. So all you're really doing is self-destructing your credit to spite your financial situation.

What I'm saying is this, we really need to be concerned for Republican noses.
Click to expand...

OK, now that I've (hopefully) made it clear that I'm not suggesting we discard the bill. Do you think the government is more likely to make tough choices re: cuts when they're borrowing the money from a. themselves at 0% or b. the payday lender who will break his legs?
 
FlashFlooder said:
I never said anything about cutting up the bill. Please read what I actually wrote.
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You replied to this: "To use their own insane household budget metaphors, Republicans think you save money when you cut up your credit card bill and hide it under the couch."

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84336937&postcount=1259

FlashFlooder said:
Shake Appeal said:
To use their own insane household budget metaphors, Republicans think you save money when you cut up your credit card bill and hide it under the couch.
Click to expand...

While it may not do anything to resolve the debt you've already accrued, it is the ONLY way to ensure that you (the compulsive spender) will not get yourself into the same predicament just as soon as you've handled the current crisis.
Click to expand...
 
FlashFlooder said:
The entire point of my response (and I feel I was pretty clear about it) is this:

While you are correct that the 'cutting the credit card' approach will do nothing to solve the current crisis, it (or something like it) is a necessary step if we are ever going to get back to the days of responsible spending by our government. This whole "they can print money, therefore have a blank check" mentality is only going to dig us deeper and deeper into a hole.
Click to expand...

Responsible spending by our government at this time would be more spending. We have low inflation and still high unemployment. Please tell me where it would be more responsible to raise that unemployment rate?
 
tranciful said:
You replied to this: "To use their own insane household budget metaphors, Republicans think you save money when you cut up your credit card bill and hide it under the couch."

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84336937&postcount=1259
Click to expand...

oops, my mistake. I skipped over the word bill, no wonder everyone is jumping on me.

Sorry folks, carry on!


Responsible spending by our government at this time would be more spending. We have low inflation and still high unemployment. Please tell me where it would be more responsible to raise that unemployment rate?
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Just "more spending"? Doesn't matter what it's spent on, or if it's spent efficiently? It's really that simple?
 
slit said:
I'd like to know what there is to talk about? Unless it's to try to reiterate he's not budging on this and hoping that it gets through the thick skulls of the GOP leadership. If Obama goes and surrenders he'll be the biggest political joke in decades.
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what is talked about behind closed doors is totally different from what we read bi would assume Obama will basically offer a method of which to put a clean cr on the table allowing Boehner yo save face.
 
animlboogy said:
If you want to be taken at all seriously, especially as you try to defend some fairly reprehensible actions that are harming millions of people, you might want to pay some basic attention to the posts you reply to. ESPECIALLY if you're going to "call out" people like this. Go back and check yourself before assuming I'm just an idiot who can't read.
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I already apologied for my mistake, and I will now apologize for hurting your feelings. Sorry!

I think maybe you're being a little melodramatic about my reply though.
 
FlashFlooder said:
Just "more spending"? Doesn't matter what it's spent on, or if it's spent efficiently? It's really that simple?
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Sure, spend it on jobs like infrastructure.

But yes it's that simple that spending more money on fucking anything right now would be better than not raising the debt ceiling.
 
FlashFlooder said:
This whole "they can print money, therefore have a blank check" mentality is only going to dig us deeper and deeper into a hole.
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What hole?!

Where?

What's at the bottom of this hypothetical hole? What are the repercussions of digging this insane imaginary hole?! Are we building a BBQ pit? Installing a pool?

WHAT HOLE?!
 
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