based on what information?
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US Federal Government Shutdown | Shutdown Shutdown, Debt Ceiling Raised
- Thread starter Jarmel
- Start date
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based on what information?
Hah, now that's true.
Good idea, but wouldn't congress have to approve this? How the hell can we legally get these turkeys punished?
You're right, the majority of voters knew squat about what Obamacare actually is. The majority of voters received an uninformative negative slant on Obamacare from mainstream media and conservative advertising. And they still voted to keep it around.
ZedIndyLil
Member
Salaries are rather unimportant to most of these people, partially because most of them are already rich, and partly because their primary concern is to keep their base happy, a base who will be paying them MUCH higher salaries through speaking fees/think tanks/foundations/lobbying firms/etc. once they leave office.
ElectricBlue187
Member
Q: Do you feel that you personally do or do not have the information you need to understand what changes will occur as the new health care law takes effect?
DO HAVE THE INFORMATION 35%
DO NOT HAVE THE INFORMATION 62%
http://www.washingtonpost.com/page/.../20/National-Politics/Polling/release_263.xml
and that's probably pretty generous
there's a ringing endorsement if I've ever heard one.
SteveWinwood
Member
Based on the well known fact that the general public at large is dumb as a box of rocks.
Fenderputty
Banned
You need a poll to confirm this?
Escape Goat
Member
Reid has taken the kid gloves off. Hes pissed.
Well yeah, thats my understanding, but a number of stupid rocks wanted health care. And other morons were protesting the rocks for wanting hand-outs/free healthcare from the Government(while keeping their medicare).
**Its definitely confusing, and I don't think that even Obama & Co are on top of it. But people were supporting Obama, with dreams of healthcare in mind, as nebulous as it was/is. Alls im saying.
Brian Griffin
Member
It's a nice idea but people aren't smart enough to pick up on this and you're right, anyone who is paying attention already sees through the GOP's tactics. The Dems need to not play into this game at all and stand strong by the message that what the GOP is doing is simply not ok. It's undemocratic, unamerican, childish and wrong.
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
I'm embarrassed for all level headed republicans
This is beyond stupidity
This is beyond stupidity
Schattenjäger;84581113 said:
There are none. People I've known for years that are moderate Republicans are still defending this bullshit.
We'll be lucky if we get anywhere by the end of this month...
I think if nothing happens before 10/17 when the debt ceiling limit comes up, that's the latest it will happen. Already a bunch of GOP members in the House openly saying they would vote for a clean CR if given the chance, Boehner isn't allowing a majority vote because of the lunatic stranglehold on his position.
j_k_redtail
Member
Block their pay? no, DOCK their pay. Send them a bill
It really doesn't seem fair that a single man can hold the country hostage like this. Isn't there some kind of revolt that members of congress could do? Nothing too violent, maybe just lock him in a broom closet for a day while they fix things...
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Sorry, but that was a joke right? If not, have you even set foot on a military base?
I might have missed it, but I'm surprised no one has brought up this Lincoln letter:
It's just amazing to me where we are right now. It's like we've learned all the wrong lessons... We went through this in 2011. At that point, although Obamacare had a role, the issue was debt. Those events in and of themselves were counterproductive, and from them we got an unjustifiable sequestration policy. But suddenly, the government has actually been shut down, and this time the issue wasn't even debt. Instead, Republicans decided to take aim at Obamacare ... even though between 2011 and 2013, the Supreme Court upheld it, and the side who passed it then proceeded to roundly defeat them in a presidential election.
It's quite something. For one, I love how the debt is no longer what's being emphasized here. Since 2011, we have heard almost nothing but positive news about debt related issues. To the extent it was a problem then, it's much less of a problem now - at least in the short term. Perhaps that's beginning to actually sink in? Another reason is probably the GOP's effort to repeal Obamacare rapidly running out of time.
But I think the core reason lies elsewhere. Something else has happened since 2011: the gerrymandering of 2010 had a chance to play out in practice, and this (combined with other things) only resulted in a more extreme GOP overall; and besides that, getting ridiculously close to, say, defaulting didn't actually result in some sort of new love for good governance, but only made it even easier to step toward that ledge. Both things, but especially the latter, shine a horrible light on our entire political system.
In any case, it's incredible Republicans have decided to go to this extreme over an issue they were never going to get their way on. It seems they've pushed Obama to the same place Lincoln was at when he wrote that letter. Obama seems strongly invested in the idea caving in to their demands would set (or reinforce) a horrible precedent, badly distort the political system, and ultimately weaken the country. How he maneuvers through this will have huge ramifications.
It's just amazing to me where we are right now. It's like we've learned all the wrong lessons... We went through this in 2011. At that point, although Obamacare had a role, the issue was debt. Those events in and of themselves were counterproductive, and from them we got an unjustifiable sequestration policy. But suddenly, the government has actually been shut down, and this time the issue wasn't even debt. Instead, Republicans decided to take aim at Obamacare ... even though between 2011 and 2013, the Supreme Court upheld it, and the side who passed it then proceeded to roundly defeat them in a presidential election.
It's quite something. For one, I love how the debt is no longer what's being emphasized here. Since 2011, we have heard almost nothing but positive news about debt related issues. To the extent it was a problem then, it's much less of a problem now - at least in the short term. Perhaps that's beginning to actually sink in? Another reason is probably the GOP's effort to repeal Obamacare rapidly running out of time.
But I think the core reason lies elsewhere. Something else has happened since 2011: the gerrymandering of 2010 had a chance to play out in practice, and this (combined with other things) only resulted in a more extreme GOP overall; and besides that, getting ridiculously close to, say, defaulting didn't actually result in some sort of new love for good governance, but only made it even easier to step toward that ledge. Both things, but especially the latter, shine a horrible light on our entire political system.
In any case, it's incredible Republicans have decided to go to this extreme over an issue they were never going to get their way on. It seems they've pushed Obama to the same place Lincoln was at when he wrote that letter. Obama seems strongly invested in the idea caving in to their demands would set (or reinforce) a horrible precedent, badly distort the political system, and ultimately weaken the country. How he maneuvers through this will have huge ramifications.
User 100115
Banned
I have a brother who is pretty smart, a wonderful person...
He's been suffering from a broken shoulder for YEARS. And I mean years. He could never afford to get it fixed. His shoulder is literally only hanging there, his arm barely works...
And he still believes that Obamacare is the devil and will ruin everyone. Because of how he was raised and where he gets his news from. It's so upsetting.
He's been suffering from a broken shoulder for YEARS. And I mean years. He could never afford to get it fixed. His shoulder is literally only hanging there, his arm barely works...
And he still believes that Obamacare is the devil and will ruin everyone. Because of how he was raised and where he gets his news from. It's so upsetting.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
If they close for a week it's meaningless to them.
Dang, this sounds like Civil War Part II is about to come. I'm ready to join the Union.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Oh wow, looking at that letter now...
Fenderputty
Banned
There are level headed republicans. Just not in congress. The simple fact that he's admitting their stupidity now shows this.
It actually sounds like they ARE in congress, just not with the influence (or just the spine) necessary to negate the 20-40 crazies.
I know, right? I've been immersed in Ancient Rome stuff lately, and it's made me think about this situation in rather dramatic terms. I don't see us actually defaulting on our debt, but if we were to do so, I don't think our country would ever be the same again. On the other hand, even if we manage to avoid going over that ledge, something has to change.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Could someone explain exactly what that park ranger thing was? Did that rep actually plan that weird shaming as a photo op? It just seems like the most out of touch thing you could do, if that's the case.
There was a similar photo op thing yesterday, where a few House GOP members kicked up a fuss over veterans wanting to visit memorials that were closed. Not sure if this is from the same event, or just a copycat.
But yes, it was certainly planned.
Zoramon089
Banned
Fillabustering for a paycheck
Poltergust
Member
To be honest, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that Obama's stance/decision on this matter is probably the most important of his presidential career. For better or worse, I do not think that this country will be the same after this thing is over.
Which is why I'm hoping that he remains resolute in his convictions on this one and encourages the rest of Congress to do the same. Giving into the GOP's demands will set a horrible precedent for the future and would ruin the integrity of the democratic process, and hopefully he understands this.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
I know I'll be met with jokes, but why would the guy actively put any blame at all on that park worker? Is there a layer I'm missing here? They had less than zero to do with what's happening.
JetBlackPanda
Member
Liberty4all
Banned
If the Republicans refuse to budge on this or raising the debt ceiling what's the end result?
Economic ruin?
Civil unrest?
Arrest of Congress members and forcing through the legislation?
14th Amendment?
Civil war?
I'm just trying to get a grasp on how this will shake out if worse comes to worse and they really are willing to take us to the brink of disaster.
Economic ruin?
Civil unrest?
Arrest of Congress members and forcing through the legislation?
14th Amendment?
Civil war?
I'm just trying to get a grasp on how this will shake out if worse comes to worse and they really are willing to take us to the brink of disaster.
Fenderputty
Banned
If they're a part of this mess, they're not level headed.
I just read this
Basically, it'll be horrible and probably worse than the 2008 recession. What would suck is that this is completely avoidable.
I hope so.....I don't know if you're being serious or silly, but I hope you're serious
Nothing, nor should they. This has to come to a head one way or the other. The gov't can't continue down this road. You don't allow a small faction of congress to over rule everyone else. In the end, the Dems might give up the medical device tax but I don't think much else and even then I think that would be the wrong move.
User 100115
Banned
I think it's really, really shitty that these guys on the floor of congress are whining about national parks like that's the real problem here, not the families going without paychecks or the aid that keeps their kids from starving.
is this subtle mockery
ElectricBlue187
Member
No WWII vets coming to visit them I guess they don't count.
If Obama's unwilling to use the 14th amendment or any other tricks (and he's messaging very, very aggressively that he is unwilling to do so), then the end result is economic calamity of an unforeseen but definitely terrible level.
The United States dollar is the currency of last resort because US bonds are considered as good as cash -- the assumption is that they have about a 0% chance of defaulting. If they default, it's actually pretty difficult to say what would happen. People would probably sell all their US bonds and buy some other kind of currency or bonds -- China's a popular suggestion, although their current economic situation might give some pause. This would potentially cause a significant loss in value for the US dollar and everything that pegs to it, is tied to it, or is a derivative of it (or a derivative of any of THOSE, etc.).
In terms of America, we would be permanently impoverished as a nation from the collapse of the dollar, the loss of our status as currency of last resort, and our necessarily increased borrowing costs.
Personally, I think that Obama's messaging so aggressively about not being willing to use the 14th amendment that he might be covering up a willingness to use it. This might be wishful thinking, but frankly, I think you'd have to be an idiot to trust the House to handle this at this point.
The cost of using the 14th amendment is that they try to impeach Obama (which fails), tying up the rest of his term. There would probably be political costs as well. On the other hand, the argument would be that Obama overstepped his authority by SAVING THE WORLD, so I'm not sure how effective it would be.
Zero Hero
Member
Keeping funding at sequestration levels that the House originally offered.
Byakuya769
Member
I'm getting bombarded with meme's about WWII vets valiantly breaking into the memorial that Democrats shut down. So, I would guess at least mildly effective.
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