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[Kanyewesting]

I hope to get the Xbox One but I'm no fanboy of the Xbox although I lean towards MS(I own an iPhone tho) because I love how they work to improve the lives of folks around the world through Gates.

But it may be difficult to stick with Xbox, love them but I think I may need to wait a month. I think overall Xbox is the better console but if they're truly this behind in graphics that's bad..very bad.

 

[SniperHunter]

You are talking utter bullshit.
Xbone NEEDS to reserve 10% as they want you to be able to watch TV while gaming, ITS IN ALL THE ADVERTS, they can't have the game slow down so you need a GPU ceiling for what you expect the side-apps to use as to not interfere with the gameOS.

PS3 has absolutely no similar functionality. Like PS3 if you hit home to bring up the gameOS then the game pauses, the share button kicks in the secondary capture chip.

I've been watching your posts all day and I'm finding them increasingly.....shillish.

Well said. Ps4 handles game like Vita. If you want to use fhe os, it pauses the game and sends it to the background...

 

[nib95]

I hope to get the Xbox One but I'm no fanboy of the Xbox although I lean towards MS(I own an iPhone tho) because I love how they work to improve the lives of folks around the world through Gates.

But it may be difficult to stick with Xbox, love them but I think I may need to wait a month. I think overall Xbox is the better console but if they're truly this behind in graphics that's bad..very bad.

The Gates foundation should not be soiled by being lumbered with Microsoft or put in the same light, especially when Microsoft was the first to hand out peoples personal and private information at whim, and attempt the DRM debacle, while the other organisation is purely philanthropical and a completely different entity altogether.

 

[viveks86]

Note: 1.84 vs 1.31 is closer to a 40% increase, not 50%. The real world performance gap devs are saying is 'obvious' to see, however (which negates this) indicates a 50% gap. Therefore there's no denying that the 10% reduction is playing a role. I know you want to ignore it, but it just doesn't prove to be sound given everything we know. Again: the examples given by devs are more important then even the raw specs and that is a large gap. But please keep coming up with explanations as to why we should ignore the known facts about os usage.

It's simple, known facts need to be available on both sides. As I said, I am deliberately ignoring the known fact for the XBOX OS, because I don't know what it is for PS4. When that is known, I would include that factor as well. What about this sounds unreasonable?

I will concede that 50% that I mentioned was an incorrect number. I had mistakenly used the percentage number prior to the up clock.

 

[ElTorro]

What I'm proposing is to ignore both, since a valid comparison needs both. How will it be subject to Occam's razor if it is removed off the table until further evidence?

Huh? You are confusing facts/assumptions with features. We must ignore assumptions but we must not ignore established features.

First fact: XBO needs GPU time for Snap and Kinect.
Second fact: We are not aware of any comparable feature on the PS4.

We are not "leveling" any set of assumptions when we assume that XBO/PS4 have a "leveled" feature set for the sake of comparison. On the contrary: "leveling" the feature set in either direction actually adds an assumption on top of those facts. Either (a) the assumption that the first fact is incorrect (which has a very low probability) or (b) the assumption that the PS4 has some unknown feature that needs GPU time (which by definition cannot have an epistomological probability higher than 50%).

 

[ChosenPredator]

I hope to get the Xbox One but I'm no fanboy of the Xbox although I lean towards MS(I own an iPhone tho) because I love how they work to improve the lives of folks around the world through Gates.

But it may be difficult to stick with Xbox, love them but I think I may need to wait a month. I think overall Xbox is the better console but if they're truly this behind in graphics that's bad..very bad.

their first party games should look pretty , i know the console isnt a powerhouse but i dont give a hoot about that kind of stuff they both have stellar games so thats why i said fuck it and got both..their both to vood to pass on lol

 

[Whiteshirt]

It's simple, known facts need to be available on both sides. As I said, I am deliberately ignoring the known fact for the XBOX OS, because I don't know what it is for PS4. When that is known, I would include that factor as well. What about this sounds unreasonable?

Because you can deduce why one needs a 10% reservation and the other doesn't. If there is a reservation, it will be an extremely tiny amount that it isn't worth talking about.

The PS4 suspends the game and kicks itself out of it into the OS like the Vita does. It does need to run "intensive" hardware accelerated apps alongside a video game so it does not need any reservation to maintain good performance.

Sony would reserve an amount but logically there is no reason to do so, unlike the Xbox One.

 

[BigJoeGrizzly]

I don't think you've defended your statement at all. You've just asserted it once again.

You could at least list some items that make up this huge gap instead of speaking in generalities that can't be analyzed.

Says who? I mean this is entirely conjecture. And not even conjecture based on what they've shown so far.

Speaking for myself (who also agrees that I've enjoyed the Live ecosystem more than PSN), most of these would be my current experiences with the 360 compared to PS3 (which I've owned a couple times):

-Faster downloads
-Faster connectivity
-Smoother interface
-Better transitions from app to app
-Less downtime for maintenance
-Less server issues (crashes, digital download issues - looking at you PS3 GTA 5)
-More robust server-side support
-More transparency about service for Xbone (300k initial servers, Cloud service descriptions)
-More 3rd party early access to DLC
-Greater variety of apps and overall services (with UI unique to Xbox)
-More streamlined, lively, social connectivity (friends list setup, party chat, messaging)
-The majority of my friends are on Xbox Live (I know, I'm reaching on that one)

 

[Tabular]

It's simple, known facts need to be available on both sides. As I said, I am deliberately ignoring the known fact for the XBOX OS, because I don't know what it is for PS4. When that is known, I would include that factor as well. What about this sounds unreasonable?

I will concede that 50% that I mentioned was an incorrect number. I had mistakenly used the percentage number prior to the up clock.

But by deliberately ignoring os usage your ignoring the blatant fact that the gpu resources Xbone is using for snap and Kinect don't exist on the ps4! That's just dillusional. Your saying your avoiding being in error one way, then you commit to being hugely in error the other way. You obviously just love xbox too much to think clearly.

 

[Kanyewesting]

The Gates foundation should not be soiled by being lumbered with Microsoft or put in the same light, especially when Microsoft was the first to hand out peoples personal and private information at whim, and attempt the DRM debacle, while the other organisation is purely philanthropical and a completely different entity altogether.

Disagree, MS has a great track record of philanthropy & they've done work to create permanent solutions to 3rd world issues.

Idk whether MS was the first but every big corporation including has to do this & they ALSO were 1 of the first to file a lawsuit to release NSA info to consumers..so just stop it.

DRM was awesome..they may have not implemented it that well. But the idea of playing without discs & renting digital games was incredible.

 

[viveks86]

Huh? You are confusing facts/assumptions with features. We must ignore assumptions but we must not ignore established features.

First fact: XBO needs GPU time for Snap and Kinect.
Second fact: We are not aware of any comparable feature on the PS4.

We are not "leveling" any set of assumptions when we assume that XBO/PS4 have a "leveled" feature set for the sake of comparison. On the contrary: "leveling" the feature set in either direction actually adds an assumption on top of those facts. Either (a) the assumption that the first fact is incorrect (which has a very low probability) or (b) the assumption that the PS4 has some unknown feature that needs GPU time (which by definition cannot have an epistomological probability higher than 50%).

Fair enough. Was a good debate. I learnt a lot from some of your comments. Thanks for responding in a cogent manner instead of resorting to insults!

 

[ElTorro]

Idk whether MS was the first but every big corporation including has to do this & they ALSO were 1 of the first to file a lawsuit to release NSA info to consumers..so just stop it.

Not the best argument, IMO.

 

[Metfanant]

Well said. Ps4 handles game like Vita. If you want to use fhe os, it pauses the game and sends it to the background...

which is exactly how i WANT it to be

 

[viveks86]

But by deliberately ignoring os usage your ignoring the blatant fact that the gpu resources Xbone is using for snap and Kinect don't exist on the ps4! That's just dillusional. Your saying your avoiding being in error one way, then you commit to being hugely in error the other way. You obviously just love xbox too much to think clearly.

Cut out the insults will ya? I'm not even buying an xbox until I'm convinced of it's value proposition. I'm getting a PS4 at launch. Doesn't mean I shouldn't try and propose an alternate way to continue the debate until we know more, because it seemed fair to me when I started the argument.

 

[SniperHunter]

Speaking for myself (who also agrees that I've enjoyed the Live ecosystem more than PSN), most of these would be my current experiences with the 360 compared to PS3 (which I've owned a couple times):

-Faster downloads
-Faster connectivity
-Smoother interface
-Better transitions from app to app
-Less downtime for maintenance
-Less server issues (crashes, digital download issues - looking at you PS3 GTA 5)
-More robust server-side support
-More transparency about service for Xbone (300k initial servers, Cloud service descriptions)
-More 3rd party early access to DLC
-Greater variety of apps and overall services (with UI unique to Xbox)
-More streamlined, lively, social connectivity (friends list setup, party chat, messaging)
-The majority of my friends are on Xbox Live (I know, I'm reaching on that one)

Complete bull shit list. I have been using psn since 2011 and never had any issues except for the hacking incident. And this is offtopic anyway

 

[Tabular]

Cut out the insults will ya? I'm not even buying an xbox until I'm convinced of it's value proposition. I'm getting a PS4 at launch. Doesn't mean I shouldn't try and propose an alternate way to continue the debate, because it seemed fair to me when I started the argument.

It just seems strange that you've been going on about this for so long.

 

[spatenfloot]

Disagree, MS has a great track record of philanthropy & they've done work to create permanent solutions to 3rd world issues.

Idk whether MS was the first but every big corporation including has to do this & they ALSO were 1 of the first to file a lawsuit to release NSA info to consumers..so just stop it.

DRM was awesome..they may have not implemented it that well. But the idea of playing without discs & renting digital games was incredible.

Whatever Microsoft may or may not have done socially, has nothing to do with the power gap between consoles.
Also, DRM is never awesome. It is a necessary evil for digital products. Playing games and digital rentals are perfectly possible without the measures Microsoft tried to impose.

 

[vcc]

Complete bull shit list. I have been using psn since 2011 and never had any issues except for the hacking incident. And this is offtopic anyway

Service may vary by region. He could legitimate see that because he's closer to the Ms data center versus than the Sony one. But he should probably realize the reverse can be true. the story on PSN is clunky though.

 

[viveks86]

It just seems strange that you've been going on about this for so long.

Was a worth while debate, is all. I needed to understand what the best approach to build a fair hypothesis is, when there is a slight offset in what we know on one platform versus another. So I challenged many of you. That's kind of the point of a forum right? To put ourselves out there and see what others have to say about our opinions?

 

[GribbleGrunger]

We know that on paper the PS4 is approximately 40% more powerful but many developers are saying 50% more powerful. That could be to do with them also including the 10% put to one side for 'snap' mode and Kinect, but it could also be to do with the PS4 having performance increases from other chip features we aren't entirely privy to. I'm in the camp of believing it's more likely the 10% set aside for 'snap mode' and Kinect, but viveks86 approach of 'let's just wait and see' is equally valid and doesn't in any way appear shillish. He appears to be acknowledging that the PS4 is more powerful so I don't really know why so many people are getting bent out of shape with his comments.

 

[spatenfloot]

Cut out the insults will ya? I'm not even buying an xbox until I'm convinced of it's value proposition. I'm getting a PS4 at launch. Doesn't mean I shouldn't try and propose an alternate way to continue the debate until we know more, because it seemed fair to me when I started the argument.

The problem arises when you try to ignore a known issue with the Xbone by claiming you need an equivalent issue for the PS4 when there is no indication that it exists. Deal with the facts only when presenting your arguments.

 

[BigJoeGrizzly]

Complete bull shit list. I have been using psn since 2011 and never had any issues except for the hacking incident. And this is offtopic anyway

Two members (benny_a and Y2Kev) responded to a previous member's post wanting hard specifics on what the member felt was better about Live over PSN. I stepped in and gave a concrete list of things I felt made Live more enjoyable than PSN (in my opinion). I get called out for bullshit. Even when a member gives the info that people demand, it still isn't enough?

 

[Sword Of Doom]

The Gates foundation should not be soiled by being lumbered with Microsoft or put in the same light, especially when Microsoft was the first to hand out peoples personal and private information at whim, and attempt the DRM debacle, while the other organisation is purely philanthropical and a completely different entity altogether.

Not to mention MS was found guilty of violating anti trust laws by congress

 

[viveks86]

The problem arises when you try to ignore a known issue with the Xbone by claiming you need an equivalent issue for the PS4 when there is no indication that it exists. Deal with the facts only when presenting your arguments.

I didn't claim an equivalent issue. I was admittedly ignoring it to see if it made a more balanced argument. It doesn't make the argument better and so I get your point.

 

[SniperHunter]

Ps4'a gpu at the moment is 56% better than xbones gpu
PS4 has a better architecture (huma/bandwidth/unified ram setup etc)
Xbones cpu is slightly better than ps4s cpu
Xbone reserves more hardware for os features (3gb ram, 10% of the gpu and two cpu cores)

PS4 is the better gaming machine (going by all the dicusions)

 

[endresults]

I didn't claim an equivalent issue. I was admittedly ignoring it to see if it made a more balanced argument. It doesn't make the argument better and so I get your point.

Someone said the secret word!

 

[GribbleGrunger]

The problem arises when you try to ignore a known issue with the Xbone by claiming you need an equivalent issue for the PS4 when there is no indication that it exists. Deal with the facts only when presenting your arguments.

Fella, he's already said he's buying a PS4 and I know for a fact that he acknowledges the power difference. I totally agree with you that there is NO indication that the same 'problem' (arguably the wrong word depending on how you look at it) appears on the PS4. I believe personally that it hasn't got the same problem because it doesn't need resources for the PS Camera or 'snap mode' (I THINK, but I can't be certain yet), but lets not turn this into a pointless argument between two guys from the camp because they have different approaches to logical thinking.

 

[Manmademan]

Two members (benny_a and Y2Kev) responded to a previous member's post wanting hard specifics on what the member felt was better about Live over PSN. I stepped in and gave a concrete list of things I felt made Live more enjoyable than PSN (in my opinion). I get called out for bullshit. Even when a member gives the info that people demand, it still isn't enough?

Someone said the list was bullshit- while I wouldn't go quite THAT far, many of the things you prefer about live over PSN are a result of PSN not being integrated into the PS3 from day 1. Overall smoothness of apps, better transitions, lack of party chat etc all are a result of RAM limitations.

These things aren't valid complaints anymore, as shown by how PSN works on the vita. It's many, many, MANY times faster, and party chat has existed from day 1.

edit: from earlier in the thread

neither the PS3 nor 360 can really switch from games to apps this fast. Why? integration with the OS.

3rd party access to DLC depends on the install base of the console. If the Xbone sells less than the PS4 does, support will be worse, and vice versa. that's not a PSN vs. Live issue.

and as for transparency, MS has been LESS transparent, not more. You know there aren't 300k ACTUAL servers, right?

 

[PureGone]

Halo 4 would like a word with you son.

Not even close

 

[nib95]

Disagree, MS has a great track record of philanthropy & they've done work to create permanent solutions to 3rd world issues.

Idk whether MS was the first but every big corporation including has to do this & they ALSO were 1 of the first to file a lawsuit to release NSA info to consumers..so just stop it.

DRM was awesome..they may have not implemented it that well. But the idea of playing without discs & renting digital games was incredible.

Renting digital games instead of being able to freely lend, sell, borrow? No. It was anti consumer and anti value proposition, just like so much Microsoft has released of late.

And no, every corporation doesn't. They could have at least challenged it consistently like Google did for example. Stop defending disgusting antics and anti consumer moves by obfuscating or glossing over.

 

[viveks86]

We know that on paper the PS4 is approximately 40% more powerful but many developers are saying 50% more powerful. That could be to do with them also including the 10% put to one side for 'snap' mode and Kinect, but it could also be to do with the PS4 having performance increases from other chip features we aren't entirely privy to. I'm in the camp of believing it's more likely the 10% set aside for 'snap mode' and Kinect, but viveks86 approach of 'let's just wait and see' is equally valid and doesn't in any way appear shillish. He appears to be acknowledging that the PS4 is more powerful so I don't really know why so many people are getting bent out of shape with his comments.

Thank Gribble. 'let's just wait and see' was the crux of every argument I tried to make. I typically never get involved in power debates, until I get all the facts on both sides. I was trying to prove that there are still gaps in our knowledge that need to be filled before we can make definitive statements on power differences and played the devil's advocate to present my case to those willing to read. Unsurprisingly, it got a few people riled up. And that's fine! Appreciate the ones that stayed civil and made thoughtful comments.

 

[Famassu]

Speaking for myself (who also agrees that I've enjoyed the Live ecosystem more than PSN), most of these would be my current experiences with the 360 compared to PS3 (which I've owned a couple times):

-Faster downloads
-Faster connectivity
-Smoother interface
-Better transitions from app to app
-Less downtime for maintenance
-Less server issues (crashes, digital download issues - looking at you PS3 GTA 5)
-More robust server-side support
-More transparency about service for Xbone (300k initial servers, Cloud service descriptions)
-More 3rd party early access to DLC
-Greater variety of apps and overall services (with UI unique to Xbox)
-More streamlined, lively, social connectivity (friends list setup, party chat, messaging)
-The majority of my friends are on Xbox Live (I know, I'm reaching on that one)

Even the little we've seen from PS4's UI/OS pretty much negates all or most of those complaints. It's fast, it has way more features than Xbox 360 did (so if you're happy with what Xbox 360 offered, PS4 should be just fine), PS+ is way better value for your money than Live has ever been and so far they have announced dedicated servers for their own games. The only thing PS4 loses at is not having some pointless shit like a dedicated NFL app that only works in one region of the world.

 

[satam55]

Speaking for myself (who also agrees that I've enjoyed the Live ecosystem more than PSN), most of these would be my current experiences with the 360 compared to PS3 (which I've owned a couple times):

-Faster downloads
-Faster connectivity
-Smoother interface
-Better transitions from app to app
-Less downtime for maintenance
-Less server issues (crashes, digital download issues - looking at you PS3 GTA 5)
-More robust server-side support
-More transparency about service for Xbone (300k initial servers, Cloud service descriptions)
-More 3rd party early access to DLC
-Greater variety of apps and overall services (with UI unique to Xbox)
-More streamlined, lively, social connectivity (friends list setup, party chat, messaging)
-The majority of my friends are on Xbox Live (I know, I'm reaching on that one)

Two members (benny_a and Y2Kev) responded to a previous member's post wanting hard specifics on what the member felt was better about Live over PSN. I stepped in and gave a concrete list of things I felt made Live more enjoyable than PSN (in my opinion). I get called out for bullshit. Even when a member gives the info that people demand, it still isn't enough?

Yes it's bullshit because like I said earlier in this thread, The issues with PSN on PS3 are PS3 hardware issues (limited system RAM & outdated Wi-Fi chip). None of those issues are factors for the PS Vita & the PS4. Also, Sony is moving PSN from Amazon Web Services to Rackspace's Openstack. So, PSN will be running on a new cloud service.

 

[Kanyewesting]

Renting digital games instead of being able to freely lend, sell, borrow? No. It was anti consumer and anti value proposition, just like so much Microsoft has released of late.

And no, every corporation doesn't. They could have at least challenged it consistently like Google did for example. Stop defending disgusting antics and anti consumer moves by obfuscating or glossing over.

Lol you can say that but it's not true so it doesn't matter.

Selling, buying, etc for digital games as well but I personally would've been more excited for digital renting much like Netflix if you will.

Every major corporation does dude, saying that just proves you're not knowledgeable. Every corporation HAS to, it's not a matter of choice you need to comply with the NSA.

MS is a good corporation with it's shortcomings, every corporation has them. Ultimately they have great potential, had a great guy in Ballmer(splendid person who as u may have seen cried about leaving). Have they messed up along the way? Yeah. I may just get a PS4 but MS will to me always be a pretty good company.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Cut out the insults will ya? I'm not even buying an xbox until I'm convinced of it's value proposition. I'm getting a PS4 at launch. Doesn't mean I shouldn't try and propose an alternate way to continue the debate until we know more, because it seemed fair to me when I started the argument.

Viveks is legit and I can see where he's coming from cause at first I thought it wasn't fair to include the 10% GPU overhead for MS and nothing for PS4 but after careful consideration I realized my mistake. So I see where he's coming from and there's no reason for the name calling

 

[viveks86]

Someone said the secret word!

LOL. Was trying to avoid it as much as I can. Couldn't help it!

 

[Wishmaster92]

Ps4'a gpu at the moment is 56% better than xbones gpu
PS4 has a better architecture (huma/bandwidth/unified ram setup etc)
Xbones cpu is slightly better than ps4s cpu
Xbone reserves more hardware for os features (3gb ram, 10% of the gpu and two cpu cores)

PS4 is the better gaming machine (going by all the dicusions)

Sums it up quite nicely. Though I thought the xbox one had an implementation of huma?

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Sums it up quite nicely. Though I thought the xbox one had an implementation of huma?

If I'm not mistaking Xbox doesn't have hUMA for the entire 8gb like the PS4. Only the 32mb eSRAM

 

[viveks86]

Viveks is legit and I can see where he's coming from cause at first I thought it wasn't fair to include the 10% GPU overhead for MS and nothing for PS4 but after careful consideration I realized my mistake. So I see where he's coming from and there's no reason for the name calling

Thanks!

 

[coldfoot]

Xbones cpu is slightly better than ps4s cpu

Has the PS4 CPU frequency been confirmed at 1.6 GHz?

 

[viveks86]

Sums it up quite nicely. Though I thought the xbox one had an implementation of huma?

As far as i know, it doesn't. They seem to have implemented work arounds for cache coherent DDR3 reads between CPU and GPU. But that alone doesn't necessarily make it huma compliant. The ESRAM needs to be cache coherent as well. I think only the GPU has access to ESRAM. Can someone confirm?

 

[Prelude.]

Has the PS4 CPU frequency been confirmed at 1.6 GHz?

No.

 

[nib95]

Lol you can say that but it's not true so it doesn't matter.

Selling, buying, etc for digital games as well but I personally would've been more excited for digital renting much like Netflix if you will.

Digital renting (or game sharing) as Microsoft had it was basically an hours worth of game time before being asked to pony up the full retail price. That's awful.

 

[viveks86]

If I'm not mistaking Xbox doesn't have hUMA for the entire 8gb like the PS4. Only the 32mb eSRAM

It's the other way around. Cache coherent access is available for DDR3, not ESRAM, at least according to this chart:

Either way, that invalidates huma compliance.

 

[miDnIghtEr20C]

Does anyone remember when you guys talked about my insider on my site... and he was right about the rumble on the trigger buttons... and some other right stuff.... yet also some wrong stuff too... but my point..

Does anyone remember quoting my story about the 2 scaler chips and it being BC, but also remember he said himself that Sony was more powerful. Anyone remember that? Meh.. I do. I think it's funny that he (a guy that works at ms) even said that Sony would be more powerful.

Crazy.

 

[Wishmaster92]

Has the PS4 CPU frequency been confirmed at 1.6 GHz?

Nothing has been confirmed but the latest guerilla pdf files from february states that the cpu is 1.6ghz, so that is the number we have to go by until it is revealed in another pdf/announcement.

 

[FuturusX]

Does anyone remember when you guys talked about my insider on my site... and he was right about the rumble on the trigger buttons... and some other right stuff.... yet also some wrong stuff too... but my point..

Does anyone remember quoting my story about the 2 scaler chips and it being BC, but also remember he said himself that Sony was more powerful. Anyone remember that? Meh.. I do. I think it's funny that he (a guy that works at ms) even said that Sony would be more powerful.

Crazy.

Nope.

 

[lord pie]

According to this, it's just not possible.

The plume of smoke uses more processing power than what could be achieved on 360 altogether. A full 360's worth of processing power.

http://youtu.be/0kd3xGAOf2U?t=31m46s

Looks like a looped texture animation to me

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Digital renting (or game sharing) as Microsoft had it was basically an hours worth of game time before being asked to pony up the full retail price. That's awful.

They led everyone to believe "family share" was the greatest thing since sliced bread when in reality it was a 1hr demo. To think that was the highlight of their entire DRM bullshit.

 

[viveks86]

I disagree with the premise.

If the screen size stays the same, the 720p pixels are bigger. Let's just be generous and not mathematically correct and say they get twice the size.

That means a 20% difference at 720p is equivalent to a 40% difference at 1080p.

But pixel size and density are part of the same equation right? If we have already considered 20% density difference, the pixel size is implied for a given screen size. If we multiply that by 2 again, is that not double counting?

Anybody else wants to pitch in here?