DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
ahhh, yeah. totally agree with that then.
I thought we had another one of those weird. "how will people know what the difference is to a series s and series x" again.
WTF is the difference between the next “Xbox Console” and “Xbox PC”?!
ahhh, yeah. totally agree with that then.
I thought we had another one of those weird. "how will people know what the difference is to a series s and series x" again.
Baemono
Gold Member
But it is true that when the Series S launched (and was the only one available), I saw it in a store next to a white One S, at the same price, it was definitly confusing.
PendekarRajawali
Member
Loxus
Member
I would believe the Xbox BC is handled by the SoC "Mangnus", which the Xbox PC wouldn't use.
Xbox Console = Magnus + AT2 (Chiplet)
Xbox PC = Medusa (CPU) + AT2 (dGPU)
Core architecture: Morpheus → internal codename for the Zen 6 cores.
Desktop (client): Medusa → Ryzen 10000-series desktop CPUs.
Mobile (high-end APU): Medusa Point → up to ~22 hybrid cores with RDNA graphics.
Mobile (mainstream APU): Medusa BB (Medusa Baby) → up to ~10 hybrid cores.
Mobile (enthusiast/gaming CPU): Gator Range → high-performance mobile CPUs with strong NPUs.
Server (EPYC): Venice → up to 256 cores, aimed at datacenter and AI workloads.
Reizo Ryuu
Gold Member
just a brand thing, instead of saying "on windows via the windows store or the xbox app on pc", you just say "xbox pc"; the xbox app was literally just called xboxpcapp.exe, so it's always been there.
It also makes it easier to sell "xbox branded" pcs.
It also makes it easier to sell "xbox branded" pcs.
StereoVsn
Gold Member
I wonder if MS will make GamePass Core mandatory on Xbox "console" for buying/playing games from Steam, Epic and other storefronts.
That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Otherwise they lose a lot of revenue.
And even further, could they mandate "Games Anywhere" or whatever that is called so if someone buys on Xbox store it's also on Windows Store.
Xbox PC will clearly be OEM PCs with Xbox sticker and perhaps the new "Game Mode" version front and center (still can drop to regular Windows interface of course).
That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Otherwise they lose a lot of revenue.
And even further, could they mandate "Games Anywhere" or whatever that is called so if someone buys on Xbox store it's also on Windows Store.
Xbox PC will clearly be OEM PCs with Xbox sticker and perhaps the new "Game Mode" version front and center (still can drop to regular Windows interface of course).
twilo99
Member
It depends on what kind of "Xbox" chips AMD puts out for PC builders
OLED_Gamer
Member
Exactly how I see it. Xbox and PC game access, PC scaling options, but console- level ease of use and reliability?
Massive W for me.
MisterXDTV
Member
They have no idea what they are doing and you are asking us?
Topher
Identifies as young
I think that could be an appealing option for many. Incorporating PC stores into a console doesn't really make much sense to me from a business standpoint, but that maybe enough to shake things up in the console space (which really needs shaking up). Elephant in the room, as always, is price.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
I really value the insiders here and feel like we've been pretty well informed on everything coming up for a year and a half. But the only thing that hasn't made a ton of sense is the insistence on what is a console, and what is a PC. I'm not going to worry about it because I suspect it's mostly going to come down to semantics.
If you want to get a box that plays Xbox BC games, and has access to all the PC stores, you will be able to. If you're into Xbox currently it's going to be a massive W on every single level but the hardware price up front. You'll get what you have now, plus every other game in existence for the most part through GoG and Steam. EPIC free games. Gamepass access, all of it. Just pricy hardware.
I think every game for either the Xbox "console" or the Xbox PC store will just be a PC version, period. Again, semantics. No one is expecting these systems to sell a lot. No developers are going to go out of their way to make specialized versions for Xbox "console." Every game comes to PC now, and that's what we'll get. MS may have a quality control process for checking updates or whatever, but it will likely be on them.
As for the debate about Xbox BC stuff on PC, the AMD video is pretty clear. Unusually clear. Unprecedented BC, and coming to a range of devices. So if insiders are not seeing that now, I would expect that eventually we could see laptops, handhelds, and PCs that might incorporate a chip for BC. I guess we'll see. If not, get the "console" which is going to be a PC anyway.
If you want to get a box that plays Xbox BC games, and has access to all the PC stores, you will be able to. If you're into Xbox currently it's going to be a massive W on every single level but the hardware price up front. You'll get what you have now, plus every other game in existence for the most part through GoG and Steam. EPIC free games. Gamepass access, all of it. Just pricy hardware.
I think every game for either the Xbox "console" or the Xbox PC store will just be a PC version, period. Again, semantics. No one is expecting these systems to sell a lot. No developers are going to go out of their way to make specialized versions for Xbox "console." Every game comes to PC now, and that's what we'll get. MS may have a quality control process for checking updates or whatever, but it will likely be on them.
As for the debate about Xbox BC stuff on PC, the AMD video is pretty clear. Unusually clear. Unprecedented BC, and coming to a range of devices. So if insiders are not seeing that now, I would expect that eventually we could see laptops, handhelds, and PCs that might incorporate a chip for BC. I guess we'll see. If not, get the "console" which is going to be a PC anyway.
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OLED_Gamer
Member
I don't think everything releases on the Xbox PC App (could be wrong). Steam's library is massive, so its the easiest way to launch a new "console" with a massive library that also includes Sony's portfolio of games.
I'm wondering if they will do anything with their AI upscaler on the console. Either way, some games don't come to PC (NHL), so this could be my "do-it-all" box that is also kid friendly with the UI.
memoryman3
Member
We have this job listing that suggests Microsoft is working on comprehensive Xbox BC with Windows devices, using emulation.
jobs.careers.microsoft.com
Search Jobs | Microsoft Careers
jobs.careers.microsoft.com
viveks86
Member
Also true. Just trying to give this the most charitable read until there is official clarification
viveks86
Member
So you believe Kepler is wrong on this?
I would believe the Xbox BC is handled by the SoC "Mangnus", which the Xbox PC wouldn't use.
hinch7
Member
People who want a powerful small form factor PC designed for gaming? OS included. I'm assuming this will have Windows optimized for gaming like on the Xbox ROG Ally/X.
Zen 6+RDNA 5 and a big pool of shared RAM might be good for LLM's and Ai work as well.
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Loxus
Member
At first Magnus was the whole thing.
Now MLiD is saying it just the SoS that's named Magnus, so i don't know what to tell you.
I haven't read through this thread, what are your thoughts on how BC would work and not work on PC without modders hacking BC to work on PC.
rm082e
Gold Member
This strategy of two different machines being described makes zero business sense. If Xbox wants to make another traditional console, okay that part makes sense. But the idea of an "Xbox PC" that doesn't have backwards compatibility with player's existing digital libraries does not.
Xbox has virtually no market share in the PC gaming ecosystem. If that machine won't have BC, then they'll be asking people to buy what amounts to a gaming laptop in set top box form, that defaults to a PC storefront that almost no one uses. This seems like a DOA idea.
I feel like there has got to be more to this story. I feel like they've got to have a solution for BC on the PC device, or else they will just give up on that idea like they did with their own in-house hand held.
Xbox has virtually no market share in the PC gaming ecosystem. If that machine won't have BC, then they'll be asking people to buy what amounts to a gaming laptop in set top box form, that defaults to a PC storefront that almost no one uses. This seems like a DOA idea.
I feel like there has got to be more to this story. I feel like they've got to have a solution for BC on the PC device, or else they will just give up on that idea like they did with their own in-house hand held.
Bry0
Member
It just sounds like nothing is really changing that much, I thought initially from those videos there was an implication windows machines using these chips would be able to do Xbox BC. But yeah for various reasons sounds like that's not happening. instead what we have is AMD and MS saving money on using the same chiplets across devices, and a mess of confusing branding.
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Gameplay Gods Bless
Member
Clearly the old business isn't working for MS, they're getting rid of a lot of that. But that means he will need to be more expensive. Obviously the Xbox app still gets a cut of games there just isn't a PS+/Live barrier to multiplayer because PC gamers already laughed that out of the room with Games for windows live.
MS future is being everywhere, and the closed walled garden console strategy is the antithesis of that.
viveks86
Member
I don't want to rely on MLiD as his speculation is all over the place, even if the underlying leaks seems to be legit. Going by Kepler's comments, it looks to me that BC will NOT work on PC at all without modding/hacking/3rd party emulation. At least not right away.
Also appears that MS is working on implementing BC via official emulation. See job listing quoted below. Has a lot of interesting details on their goals. This can fly if they get active publishers to play ball going forward (and retroactively allow emulation on PC). I would guess that would be an expansion of the "Play Anywhere" program, to get BC to work on PC via emulation.
We have this job listing that suggests Microsoft is working on comprehensive Xbox BC with Windows devices, using emulation.
Search Jobs | Microsoft Careers
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I don't believe in jacks of all trades (neither should you), and he's certainly speculating about licensing hurdles making this impossible.
Educated speculation, but speculation nonetheless.
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viveks86
Member
That's fair. All of this should be taken with grains of salt until we have something official.
What user experience would that be like? Are you expecting a full PC game UI with PC settings on the "console"?
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Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
I'm expecting developers to do nothing extra for Xbox.
yurinka
Member
I assume the next generation of Xbox will be consolized PCs using Windows and their Xbox app, but using a Steam Big Picture like UI, following some minimum specs, which would include using the AMD stuff agreed with AMD.
Several 3rd party manufacturers would build them as the Xbox edition of their devices (see Asus Rog Ally or Meta Quest cases), but one shaped as home console -not as portable- will be the mostly marketed one as reference hardware for "Series X"/high end Xbox of that generation.
So MS may have agreed some tweaks with AMD, and may codesign a console with some 3rd party manufacturer (let's say Asus, Lenovo, etc) and will market it, but that 3rd party manufacturer would be the one making it. That device would count marketing wise for them as 'xbox console' while the rest of consolized pcs, which would count as 'xbox pc'.
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Loxus
Member
You should full well know the PC community would have that broken into within a month.
Sorcerer
Member
This is interesting. Could Steam and other Storefronts block themselves from Microsoft's console if Microsoft puts them behind a general paywall? Would they even care? Would they get a cut?
I'm kind of understanding the OEM thing now. If other storefronts are allowed on the next Xbox then OEM is the only way to go. Eventually games are going to come out that exceed the specs of the console. Now 7–9-year console releases are off the table. OEM's can just release newer more powerful systems at will, much like they do in the PC world. Your Xbox may be good for Xbox games made by Microsoft, but no guarantees on games on other storefronts. If you buy the console for other storefronts, you may need to upgrade every 3-4 years to keep up. Obviously the storefronts have no responsibility for this, it's just there as a part of Microsofts operating system. I doubt they will cater to the console crowd specifically, same with dev's of course.
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bitbydeath
Gold Member
There was supposed to be two handhelds at one point as well. A PC one and a console one.
Could be going down the same path where one eventually wins out and the other gets cut.
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viveks86
Member
That's the big question. Just seems like a way to leverage channels and rollout MS' version of Steam Machines. Nothing more, nothing less. And we all know how that went for Valve. So yeah, the strategy is befuddling to me as well, if all this is true. Just sell a console and a handheld, instead. If the console is playing PC games anyway, then all bases are already covered. The "Xbox PC" just seems to dilute the brand.
Unless there is a whole other angle to this that hasn't been revealed yet.
Broken into the console, you mean? The console games would not be downloadable elsewhere. And if BC isn't running natively on Windows anyway (see job listing), then that's no different than breaking into a series X and copying files directly from the SSD. Not much that can happen easily after that. PC having native BC would have been the riskier proposition from a hacking standpoint.
Dude, I understand how cracking or hacking works. Half my job history is ethical hacking to troubleshoot high end equipment or run diagnostics. The speculation here is that hacking alone may not suffice. Emulation may still be required for BC. And that's a whole different domain.
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Fess
Member
Isn't this at most mid level laptop power?
Building your own SFF PC with common PC parts must be a better alternative. No idea about cost differences though.
Loxus
Member
Clearly you have never downloaded a cracked game or program before.That's the big question. Just seems like a way to leverage channels and rollout MS version of Steam Machines. Nothing more, nothing less. And we all know how that went for Valve. So yeah, the strategy is befuddling to me as well, if all this is true. Just sell a console and a handheld, instead. If the console is playing PC games anyway, then all bases are already covered. The "Xbox PC" just seems to dilute the brand.
Unless there is a whole other angle to this that hasn't been revealed yet.
Broken into the console, you mean? The console games would not be downloadable elsewhere. And if BC isn't running natively on Windows anyway (see job listing), then that's no different than breaking into a series X and copying files directly from the SSD. Not much that can happen easily after that. PC having native BC would have been the riskier proposition from a hacking standpoint.
rm082e
Gold Member
The idea is that running an emulator in Windows that would play games from all previous Xbox generations would violate licensing agreements with developers/publishers who signed contracts for an "Xbox version" of the game. There is a legally binding definition of what the "Xbox version" means - running on dedicated Xbox console hardware. That definition does not include the game running on a PC which is considered a different platform.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Xbox PC = corporate cope.
memoryman3
Member
Would this even be able to be challenged legally if MS are doing some sort of emulation/virtualisation and not changing the game binaries at all, ala Proton and Steam Deck?
The game just would be behaving as if it were on an Xbox Series console, and not a Windows PC. I understand that Microsoft packed in recompiled code for 360 games, which is why there were legal complications there. Then again, not all games are authorised for XCloud.
The game just would be behaving as if it were on an Xbox Series console, and not a Windows PC. I understand that Microsoft packed in recompiled code for 360 games, which is why there were legal complications there. Then again, not all games are authorised for XCloud.
Topher
Identifies as young
The licensing is the issue rather than the tech that makes it possible. Otherwise, Microsoft could just make every game Play Anywhere, but they can't.
Proton is a translation layer rather than emulation/virtualization, btw.
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viveks86
Member
But if they renegotiate with active publishers... all of that can change. Not for a 100% of games (as many devs/pubs are probably inactive or even dead), but whoever is willing to play ball. It would be an extension of "Play Anywhere". There could be no other explanation for MS to open up this job description. See all the bolded highlights. The future of BC is an emulation endeavor through and through.
https://jobs.careers.microsoft.com/global/en/job/1822108/Principal-Software-Engineer
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They haven't even managed to break Denuvo yet
It might be argued that designating that particular chip as an 'Xbox' SoC, including using it in the actual next gen console could circumvent that.
Likely this wouldn't be a solution for any random HP desktop or whatever PC, but for PCs made with custom chips.
viveks86
Member
Which is exactly the direction I thought this might be going. I had actually created the comparison table with that in mind a few weeks ago. Still based on Magnus, but the PC designated as a console because of a custom SoC. Did not fly with me, legally speaking, but I'm no lawyer so I accepted it. And then we got the new confirmation. Now it's a question of who to believe. And we may lean either way
Pedro Motta
Gold Member
Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One, Xbox Series X/S, Xbox Rog Ally X...
Of course they had to come up with even more confusing shit to alienate even more their fanbase (what's left of it).
Of course they had to come up with even more confusing shit to alienate even more their fanbase (what's left of it).
GermanZepp
Gold Member
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memoryman3
Member
The Xbox and Windows versions aren't the same games technically. The emulated/translated versions would be.
Topher
Identifies as young
They are both DirectX 12. What needs to be emulated or translated? Either way, it doesn't matter. My guess is the licensing and all the legalese prevents MS from doing what you are proposing.