Girl throws a 21st birthday party with an African theme to it. The KKK showed(G/A/F)

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F

fanboi

Banned
J said:
Because there truly is no theme here. It's people dressing up as what they percieve to be "African". I wonder How a real African would have felt at that party. Would he/she have felt closer to home. Maybe admired the respect and attention the partiers paid to his or her culture.
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J said:
It' supposedly an "African Costume" party. There are plenty of non blacks in africa. and plenty of costumes that don't involve skin.
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You are looking to hard to see racism where there is none. If they came as an white African, would there be racism that they DON'T dress like the "norm" and be black?

Would your reaction be the same if, let us say, I threw a "Asian party" and my girl friend came dressed as a Geisha? Or if I came and made my eyes look like a normal Japanese man (not sure what you call it in English)?
 
S

saunderez

Member
J said:
Because there truly is no theme here. It's people dressing up as what they percieve to be "African". I wonder How a real African would have felt at that party. Would he/she have felt closer to home. Maybe admired the respect and attention the partiers paid to his or her culture.
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You still haven't explained where the mockery is coming from so I am disengaging with you. I went to a Hawaiian party the other week, I guess I was mocking native Hawaiians with my stupid stereotypical dress.
 
M

masud

Banned
Oh come one people racist? Obviously the people partying and taking pictures with the guy dressed like a klansman were going for the non racist kind of blackface...
 
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Sho_Nuff82

Member
strata8 said:
I recently attended a German-themed party. We played German music, drank German beer, and ate German food. This was all based upon our own perceptions of German culture.

That was racist in your eyes, yeah?
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You're comparing this to Oktoberfest?

fanboi said:
You are looking to hard to see racism where there is none. If they came as an white African, would there be racism that they DON'T dress like the "norm" and be black?

Would your reaction be the same if, let us say, I threw a "Asian party" and my girl friend came dressed as a Geisha? Or if I came and made my eyes look like a normal Japanese man (not sure what you call it in English)?
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Jesus christ man, yes, that is racist.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Irminsul said:
So that's the point of a themed party? To portray the topic of choice with sensitivity and a respect for the things that it represents? I never knew.
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Another option is to have a good time with the cultural representations. To make people have fun... to make fun. You have a choice then when you decide (stupidly) that you're going to participate in this theme.
 
D

Dead Man

Member
J said:
Because there truly is no theme here. It's people dressing up as what they percieve to be "African". I wonder How a real African would have felt at that party. Would he/she have felt closer to home. Maybe admired the respect and attention the partiers paid to his or her culture.
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So African would be the theme, regardless of whether you like it or not, or think they did it well or appropriately, it was the theme. So it had a theme. ANd the people that went dressed as that theme. Elephants, shitty tribal costumes, and one fuckwit in a KKK outfit.

Sho_Nuff82 said:
Easy litmus test.

Is the subject of your mockery invited to your party?

If they were, would they join in on the fun?

If not, it's probably racist.

As I said in the Asian UCSD "Compton Cookout Party" thread, you obviously don't invite the football team to your chicken and watermelon party, because you know better.
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Here's a test for you. Is mockery the point of the costume?
 
M

marrec

Banned
fanboi said:
Would your reaction be the same if, let us say, I threw a "Asian party" and my girl friend came dressed as a Geisha? Or if I came and made my eyes look like a normal Japanese man (not sure what you call it in English)?
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YES BECAUSE THAT'S RACIST.

*rubs eyes*
 
M

Mondy

Banned
racist1.gif


Get it through your heads, Americans: Australia doesn't give a shit about your guilt over pre-civil rights movement racism. We have never had a problem with African blacks like you do. We have our own problems with aboriginals, but we've never intentionally lampooned them with blackface like you did. it means nothing over here and anyone who wants to suggest that it should is shit stirring.
 
B

Bishop89

Member
J said:
It' supposedly an "African Costume" party. There are plenty of non blacks in africa. and plenty of costumes that don't involve skin.
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Lets be reasonable here, the first thing the average joe thinks of when they think Africa, is a black african or the wild life (elephants, lions and all that shit). Its the safest option when picking a 'costume' for a party, thinking of the first thing that comes to your mind.

Im sure if you really wanted to put an effort in you could have come up with something which didnt even have to do with 'race' but im sure most of the ppl at the party were too busy thinking about how drunk they were gonna get and which chicks/guys they can get to third base with behind the shed.

The only stupid thing about this whole party was the KKK guy...thats just stupid.
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
That odd few paragraphs at the bottom of the article was a bit weird. It points out how Africa is more than just jungles, tribes and animals but... it's an African themed birthday party. Going as a member of the KKK (which makes no sense anyway) or in blackface is obviously in dubious taste to say the least, but she seems to be attacking people for going in tribal garb as opposed to a businessman from Kinshasa. That's a bit holier-than-thou.
 
I

Irminsul

Member
marrec said:
Another option is to have a good time with the cultural representations. To make people have fun... to make fun. You have a choice then when you decide (stupidly) that you're going to participate in this theme.
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My point is: A themed party (or carnival, really) with costumes isn't about the actual topic, but a silly stereotyped version of the topic. That's normal, independent of the topic itself. Case in point: Pirate-themed parties, the aforementioned "Viking" parties, German ones, etc.

Would you expect to get an accurate depiction of pirates at a pirate-themed party? I certainly wouldn't, and thus I also don't expect it if it's about Africa.

If you want that, look at history re-enactments or LARPers, they're probably closer to the facts.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
J said:
Blackface is Blackface. Blackface is racist. No matter who does it no matter where it's done. That's all I want people to understand.
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"Blackface" is usually just white or other non-black people playing black characters. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's not racist in itself. In many parts of the world, there simply are no black people to play black characters. Most of the world doesn't know or give a fuck about what it means in the context of North American history, and they shouldn't have to. You say it's offensive, I say you trying to tell the rest of the world what's what is what's actually offensive.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Irminsul said:
Would you expect to get an accurate depiction of pirates at a pirate-themed party? I certainly wouldn't, and thus I also don't expect it if it's about Africa.
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I'll answer your question with one of my own:

Would you be okay with participating in Talk Like An African Day?
 
P

Perkel

Banned
Irminsul said:
My point is: A themed party (or carnival, really) with costumes isn't about the actual topic, but a silly stereotyped version of the topic. That's normal, independent of the topic itself. Case in point: Pirate-themed parties, the aforementioned "Viking" parties, German ones, etc.

Would you expect to get an accurate depiction of pirates at a pirate-themed party? I certainly wouldn't, and thus I also don't expect it if it's about Africa.

If you want that, look at history re-enactments or LARPers, they're probably closer to the facts.
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Let's have Viking party true to source material !
RAPE AND PILLAGE for everybody !
 
F

Featheredkitten

Banned
Irminsul said:
My point is: A themed party (or carnival, really) with costumes isn't about the actual topic, but a silly stereotyped version of the topic. That's normal, independent of the topic itself. Case in point: Pirate-themed parties, the aforementioned "Viking" parties, German ones, etc.

Would you expect to get an accurate depiction of pirates at a pirate-themed party? I certainly wouldn't, and thus I also don't expect it if it's about Africa.

If you want that, look at history re-enactments or LARPers, they're probably closer to the facts.
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You do realize there's a difference between historically murderous thugs and a whole group of people who have been historically subjugated, and who still deal with racism and stereotypes right?

More simply, there's a difference between a pirate and dressing up as a stereotypical black person. You realize this right?

...right?
 
I

Irminsul

Member
marrec said:
Would you be okay with participating in Talk Like An African Day?
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Never heard of that, but probably not. I mean, I also wouldn't go to costume parties because I think they're pretty dumb, but I also don't think they should depict their topic truthfully.
 
A

Alucrid

Banned
Greaver said:
This thread and that stupid jezebel piece is basically people who aren't Australian putting their own racial ideas on these kids for dressing up in 'african theme' for a party - no malice would have been intended (not even from the muppet dressed in kkk) so I fail to see the big deal.

The black face paint is a horrid racist thing to do in your country? Great well it ain't in Australia so keep your condemnation to yourselves.

Do people seriously have nothing better to do?
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I love this argument because of how stupid it is.
 
D

Dastardly Jerks

Banned
Mondy said:
racist1.gif


Get it through your heads, Americans: Australia doesn't give a shit about your guilt over pre-civil rights movement racism. We have never had a problem with African blacks like you do. We have our own problems with aboriginals, but we've never intentionally lampooned them with blackface like you did. it means nothing over here and anyone who wants to suggest that it should is shit stirring.
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Even without looking at your avatar, it's obvious you're from Queensland.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Irminsul said:
Never heard of that, but probably not. I mean, I also wouldn't go to costume parties because I think they're pretty dumb, but I also don't think they should depict their topic truthfully.
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You've never heard of that because it doesn't exist. Whereas Talk Like a Pirate Day does exist. Because the popular representation of 'Pirates' is a caricature of a group from 400 years ago and that caricature does not and did not ever exist. Maybe if Captain Blackbeard was still sailing the seven seas he would find offense in Talk Like a Pirate Day but fortunately for shipments of gold doubloons he is long dead.

Comparatively, African tribal culture is still alive and well in Africa and should not be subject to mockery, intentional or otherwise.

To be fair, I also think people who represent all Australians based on Crocodile Dundee offensive. Maybe you're cool with that too though.
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
marrec said:
To be fair, I also think people who represent all Australians based on Crocodile Dundee offensive. Maybe you're cool with that too though.
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I certainly don't find this or any of the other Australian stereotypes (well maybe besides us all being racists) offensive at all really.
 
I

Irminsul

Member
Perkel said:
Let's have Viking party true to source material !
RAPE AND PILLAGE for everybody !
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See, that wouldn't be actually true to source material for the most part.

Featheredkitten said:
You do realize there's a difference between historically murderous thugs and a whole group of people who have been historically subjugated, and who still deal with racism and stereotypes right?

More simply, there's a difference between a pirate and dressing up as a stereotypical black person. You realize this right?
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I didn't ask who historically were the bad guys and who were oppressed, because it doesn't matter for my question.

I just asked if you should expect an accurate depiction of the topic at a costume party, to which the answer simply is "no". Furthermore, you should expect stereotypes, because that is the whole fucking point of a costume party.

You didn't get my point why I mentioned pirates: It's exactly because they weren't nice, free people sailing over the seas drinking rum, but mostly – as you said – murderous thugs. Everyone knowing a bit about pirates should know that. So why is it, then, that everyone assumes depicting "Africa" on that party is anything else? Because of history? That probably isn't even a big topic in Australia.

marrec said:
To be fair, I also think people who represent all Australians based on Crocodile Dundee offensive. Maybe you're cool with that too though.
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Well, I'm German myself, but I never was offended by people thinking we're all Bavarians running around in lederhosen all day drinking beer. Or Nazis. Or both at the same time.

It's either boring (because it's overdone), stupid, or hilarious, depending on whether the person mentioning that is serious or not.
 
J

jorma

is now taking requests
AdventureRacing said:
I certainly don't find this or any of the other Australian stereotypes (well maybe besides us all being racists) offensive at all really.
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The dude in the KKK outfit is obviously an exchange student who misheard and thought it was an Australian themed party :p
 
D

Dead Man

Member
marrec said:
You've never heard of that because it doesn't exist. Whereas Talk Like a Pirate Day does exist. Because the popular representation of 'Pirates' is a caricature of a group from 400 years ago and that caricature does not and did not ever exist. Maybe if Captain Blackbeard was still sailing the seven seas he would find offense in Talk Like a Pirate Day but fortunately for shipments of gold doubloons he is long dead.

Comparatively, African tribal culture is still alive and well in Africa and should not be subject to mockery, intentional or otherwise.

To be fair, I also think people who represent all Australians based on Crocodile Dundee offensive. Maybe you're cool with that too though.
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1. Again with assuming mockery was the intention, or even the result of this. We should ask some Africans, and if they are offended then it would be wise to apologise. I think quite a few probably would be offended by it. But if the offence was not intended, it is quite silly to be calling people out for it other than to point it out.

2 Can we get a list of America approved things that can be mocked? Can we mock overly serious Americans who struggle with cultural relativism? Can we mock ourselves with a Crocodile Dundee impersionation? Is the Simpsons now in the shit for the Australia episode?

3. Mick Dundee is fine as a stereotype. It gets a bit old sometimes, but nobody worries about it. If you actually think Crocodile Dundee is something to worry about I can then see why you are worrying so much about the costumes of some kids at a costume party on the other side of the world.
 
T

Tim the Wiz

Banned
Apart from the KKK outfit, I'd class the party attire on display as 'just' moronic, not racist; the kind of ignorant embrace of stereotypes that's fostered within insular groups. The blackface stuff is in poor taste though and the cultural relativism defence is wearing thin given how connected the world is today.
 
D

Dead Man

Member
Tim the Wiz said:
Apart from the KKK outfit, I'd class the party attire on display as 'just' moronic; the kind of ignorance that's fostered within insular groups. The blackface stuff is in poor taste though and the cultural relativism defence is wearing thin given how connected the world is today.
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In some ways it is, in others it is still important to note that even when US culture is known, it is not known in its entirety, nor does it replace other customs by default.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Dead Man said:
1. Again with assuming mockery was the intention, or even the result of this. We should ask some Africans, and if they are offended then it would be wise to apologise. I think quite a few probably would be offended by it. But if the offence was not intended, it is quite silly to be calling people out for it other than to point it out.
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Intention does not matter in this case, as I indicated above.

2 Can we get a list of America approved things that can be mocked? Can we mock overly serious Americans who struggle with cultural relativism? Can we mock ourselves with a Crocodile Dundee impersionation? Is the Simpsons now in the shit for the Australia episode?
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I'll submit a list by the end of the day. Here's a preview:

Anything pre-Season 9 of the Simpsons is off limits and considered pure art. Post season 9 is offensive whether racially or otherwise.

3. Mick Dundee is fine as a stereotype. It gets a bit old sometimes, but nobody worries about it. If you actually think Crocodile Dundee is something to worry about I can then see why you are worrying so much about the costumes of some kids at a costume party on the other side of the world.
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Today I learned that one Australian dude isn't offended by an obvious stereotype and that his non-offense should not be indicative of their entire culture. Since I tend not to base my perspective on a tiny vertical slice.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Sho_Nuff82 said:
Newsflash: comedians get away with a lot of shit average people don't, because comedians are funny. The difference between Eddie Murphy, Seth McFarlane, or Trey Parker making a racist joke to break down barriers with their multicultural audience, and some frat kid having an all-white laugh-at-the-Africans party is pretty large.
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Your point about comedians has merit, but I love how the last part of your last sentence reveals how much you're projecting your own culture and experiences and how little you actually know abut Australia.

I'd wager that the people who coloured their skin were at least aware of Blackface and its history (it does have a history in Australia too) but yes it's a very different thing in Australia compared to the US. I think painting your skin to dress up as a generic tribesperson is stupid and somewhat offensive, but it's not capital B Blackface. I want to thank the guy who insisted that because these people didn't put whatever the hell they were colouring their skin with near their eyes they were obviously imitating minstrel shows, you gave me a good laugh before going to bed.

Was glad to see the KFC ad posted as well. No point in going to the effort of learning anything about a country (lord knows there's enough truly awful racism in Australia's past and present actually worth discussing) or researching context when you're just going to use a clip you saw on the internet to un-ironically generalise millions of people.
 
D

Dead Man

Member
marrec said:
Intention does not matter in this case, as I indicated above.
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Intention always matters. If someone does something out of ignorance it is vastly different than doing it out of malice.
I'll submit a list by the end of the day. Here's a preview:

Anything pre-Season 9 of the Simpsons is off limits and considered pure art. Post season 9 is offensive whether racially or otherwise.
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Fair enough. Can't argue with that.
Today I learned that one Australian dude isn't offended by an obvious stereotype and that his non-offense should not be indicative of their entire culture. Since I tend not to base my perspective on a tiny vertical slice.
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Or, you learned one Australian/American said something about his understanding of Australian culture that he is familiar with and you are choosing to ignore for the sake of your argument and in the face of a lack of others saying otherwise. If a bunch of people yell out that it is offensive, I will happily say I was wrong. And be disappointed in my countrymen.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Dead Man said:
Intention always matters. If someone does something out of ignorance it is vastly different than doing it out of malice.
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You are correct that intentional mockery is more maleficent but the offense is not lessened because the offenders were ignorant. You can be racially insensitive without being racist.

Or, you learned one Australian/American said something about his understanding of Australian culture that he is familiar with and you are choosing to ignore for the sake of your argument and in the face of a lack of others saying otherwise. If a bunch of people yell out that it is offensive, I will happily say I was wrong. And be disappointed in my countrymen.
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Being ignorant of the vast majority of Australian media, I was to understand that at the time of release, Crocodile Dundee was considered the height of American Hollywood offense toward Australia. It's possible I am incorrect in this.
 
I

iamaustrian

Member
Millions of people from different cultures all over the world dress up as blacks, asians, whites etc etc for costume parties. I would never ever consider that racist.
Hell, i was dressed as native american at least a dozens of times in my life.

Whites tend to love suntans and southeast asians buy whitening cremes.
Racists ,right?

Overreacting much
 
D

Dead Man

Member
marrec said:
You are correct that intentional mockery is more maleficent but the offense is not lessened because the offenders were ignorant. You can be racially insensitive without being racist.



Being ignorant of the vast majority of Australian media, I was to understand that at the time of release, Crocodile Dundee was considered the height of American Hollywood offense toward Australia. It's possible I am incorrect in this.
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Of course the offence is lessened. How can it not be? One is a mistake, the other an intentional attempt to cause harm.

And you realise Crocodile Dundee was an Australian film, yeah? It was aimed at Americans, but made by Australians. The lasting American idea of it being representative of Australia is funny and mocked, but I have never heard of anyone actually being offended, more just bored and thinking less of the person for using old material.
 
J

jorma

is now taking requests
Tim the Wiz said:
cultural relativism defence is wearing thin given how connected the world is today.
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If i caught you doing something in your own back yard, and i told you that this thing was considered really fucking offensive in Sweden, would you stop doing it? No matter what?
 
F

fanboi

Banned
jorma said:
If i caught you doing something in your own back yard, and i told you that this thing was considered really fucking offensive in Sweden, would you stop doing it? No matter what?
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Ha! This is ridicules since you wouldn't say anything since you are a Swede.

You would talk ill about said person to your friends and neighbors though and deny everything if they confront you about it!

Damn swedes.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Dead Man said:
Of course the offence is lessened. How can it not be? One is a mistake, the other an intentional attempt to cause harm.
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I mean to say that there is still offense. Yes, the impact is lessened to an extent.

Dead Man said:
And you realise Crocodile Dundee was an Australian film, yeah? It was aimed at Americans, but made by Australians. The lasting American idea of it being representative of Australia is funny and mocked, but I have never heard of anyone actually being offended, more just bored and thinking less of the person for using old material.
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This may be a case where neither of us know exactly as we didn't experience it first-hand. At least, I'm assuming you weren't living in Australia when the movies were originally released.
 
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