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[Tim the Wiz]

If i caught you doing something in your own back yard, and i told you that this thing was considered really fucking offensive in Sweden, would you stop doing it? No matter what?

If knowledge of doing X activity being really fucking offensive to Swedes had been widely circulated in global culture for the past several decades, I probably wouldn't do it at an event likely to be broadcast to the world. And unless you're totally naive, that definitely includes Facebook these days.

 

[Yoshiya]

Get it through your heads, Americans: Australia doesn't give a shit about your guilt over pre-civil rights movement racism. We have never had a problem with African blacks like you do. We have our own problems with aboriginals, but we've never intentionally lampooned them with blackface like you did. it means nothing over here and anyone who wants to suggest that it should is shit stirring.

plenty of australians were and still are racist pieces of shit. we can't pretend to have handled things well. the only thing australia doesn't have a comparable history of is ethnic plurality.

i assumed this was aus. yes these people are ignorant shits whose actions are informed by their limited and negative perceptions of africans (probably tangentially informed by cultural representations of black americans). this is ignorant and embarrassing and gross and the australians in this thread saying otherwise just make it worse.

 

[Dead Man]

I mean to say that there is still offense. Yes, the impact is lessened to an extent.

And you realise Crocodile Dundee was an Australian film, yeah? It was aimed at Americans, but made by Australians. The lasting American idea of it being representative of Australia is funny and mocked, but I have never heard of anyone actually being offended, more just bored and thinking less of the person for using old material.

This may be a case where neither of us know exactly as we didn't experience it first-hand. At least, I'm assuming you weren't living in Australia when the movies were originally released.

It's not only the impact that is lessened, the guilt is too. There is no way you can greatly criticise people for acting out of ignorance unless you are not ignorant of anything that may be offensive to someone. You tell them about what they didn't know, and then wait and see what their response is. Even if they think you are wrong, that is still not grounds for condemnation by itself. Motivation is key.

As for the movie, nah, I was here when it was released, it was hugely popular.

http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/ReadingRoom/film/Croc.html

That it is a phenomenon there can be no doubt. Impossibly popular throughout western film markets Crocodile Dundee was the "world-wide hit" of 1986. Doubly exceptional was the enthusiasm with which it was taken up both in Australia and overseas. Rarely in any review of a film is the audience's reaction to it thought to be worthy of comment. But for Crocodile Dundee it was. The then editor of Cinema Papers Nick Roddick wrote at the time of its release:

The audience response was extraordinary: ecstatic, proud, in tune with every nuance of Hogan's performance and the not inconsiderable talents of cinematographer Russell Boyd and director Peter Faiman.(1)

The film entered into the public record in a way that no Australian film or TV series has (Skippy notwithstanding) before or since.

 

[Irminsul]

If knowledge of doing X activity being really fucking offensive to Swedes had been widely circulated in global culture for the past several decades, I probably wouldn't broadcast it to the world. And unless you're totally naive, that definitely includes Facebook these days.

Well, then the question remains whether Blackface has been widely circulated in global culture for the past several decades.

I'd say it certainly hasn't.

 

[jorma]

If knowledge of doing X activity being really fucking offensive to Swedes had been widely circulated in global culture for the past several decades, I probably wouldn't broadcast it to the world.

But how does that matter? You're saying that "we consider painting your face black offensive if you're white, and you should stop doing it".
And now you know this Swedish thing that you're doing is offensive, because i just told you. Do you stop doing it?

Or would you say that "this isn't actually offensive in the US, and i'm in the US. But i'll be sure to never do that if i ever visit Sweden. Thank you for the information."

 

[besada]

In some ways it is, in others it is still important to note that even when US culture is known, it is not known in its entirety, nor does it replace other customs by default.

No, but if you use imagery that Americans find racially offensive, Americans are going to find it racially offensive. I'm not sure why that's so astonishingly difficult to understand. If I smack a picture of Mohammed with a shoe on youtube, I should not be astonished or defensive when folks from middle-eastern countries find that offensive.

You control the image you show to the world. If that image is offensive to millions of people, you can either stop sending those images out, cry about how misunderstood you are to the people you've offended, or simply not care that you've offended millions of people. What you can't do is control the opinion other people take away about you or your culture.

 

[franknbeans]

Yeah I'm not sure why the article is criticizing the host so much, seems like she had no idea a bunch of fools would turn up in blackface and as KKK members.

I see nothing but smiles in the pics. She could have turned them away. Serious question, does the KKK have any history in Australia? I'm surprised Australia would know enough about U.S. racism to know to associate the KKK with black people. I wonder what other countries know about the KKK.

 

[Yoshiya]

Well, then the question remains whether Blackface has been widely circulated in global culture for the past several decades.

I'd say it certainly hasn't.

this sort of stuff is just plainly designed to ridicule though. the last person the guests who'd put stuff on their faces would want to encounter there was an actual african. the very environment is hostile.

I see nothing but smiles in the pics. She could have turned them away. Serious question, does the KKK have any history in Australia? I'm surprised Australia would know enough about U.S. racism to know to associate the KKK with black people. I wonder what other countries know about the KKK.

i'd imagine awareness of the kkk is ubiquitous in the west.

 

[marrec]

It's not only the impact that is lessened, the guilt is too. There is no way you can greatly criticise people for acting out of ignorance unless you are not ignorant of anything that may be offensive to someone. You tell them about what they didn't know, and then wait and see what their response is. Even if they think you are wrong, that is still not grounds for condemnation by itself. Motivation is key.

As for the movie, nah, I was here when it was released, it was hugely popular.

http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/ReadingRoom/film/Croc.html

Well I stand corrected, I was sure that I heard somewhere that Paul Hogan became somewhat of a pariah over his role as Dundee. Well then my point should have contained some other more appropriate Australian stereotype that I'm so-far unaware of.

 

[Dead Man]

No, but if you use imagery that Americans find racially offensive, Americans are going to find it racially offensive. I'm not sure why that's so astonishingly difficult to understand. If I smack a picture of Mohammed with a shoe on youtube, I should not be astonished or defensive when folks from middle-eastern countries find that offensive.

You control the image you show to the world. If that image is offensive to millions of people, you can either stop sending those images out, cry about how misunderstood you are to the people you've offended, or simply not care that you've offended millions of people. What you can't do is control the opinion other people take away about you or your culture.

Of course they are. I am saying that that is not a good enough reason to not do something. If a third party is offended by your portrayal of something, my response would be 'So?'. I would take commentary from Africans much more seriously than anything that any non African will say. It was not a depiction of Americans, therefore I don't really care if Americans are offended. If they think the whole world should conform to their idea of what is offensive they are on a lost cause.

Well I stand corrected, I was sure that I heard somewhere that Paul Hogan became somewhat of a pariah over his role as Dundee. Well then my point should have contained some other more appropriate Australian stereotype that I'm so-far unaware of.

He did, but that was mainly for taking over to much control on the second movie, and making the shit third movie at all.

 

[jorma]

the last person the guests who'd put stuff on their faces would want to encounter there was an actual african. the very environment is hostile.

Mauritius is part of Africa, as far as i know.

 

[Irminsul]

You control the image you show to the world. If that image is offensive to millions of people, you can either stop sending those images out, cry about how misunderstood you are to the people you've offended, or simply not care that you've offended millions of people. What you can't do is control the opinion other people take away about you or your culture.

Well, yes, but people who are offended aren't automatically "right" just because they're offended. So they could as well try to understand why a certain behaviour isn't regarded as offensive in another culture. It goes both ways.

 

[Pastry]

Holy shit at the amount of people defending Blackface in this thread.

J'ceaz said it best:

Blackface is Blackface. Blackface is racist. No matter who does it no matter where it's done. That's all I want people to understand.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

To australians; is there streteotypicals traits associated with the the Aborigines??


For exmaple, I have never been to australia, and I know very little from school about the origins of australia. In our history class we mostly focused on the prison side of things. it was always a footnote, but our history teacher did note that the Aborigines suffered a similiar mate as the native indians in more ways than one.

 

[Mesousa]

I see nothing but smiles in the pics. She could have turned them away. Serious question, does the KKK have any history in Australia? I'm surprised Australia would know enough about U.S. racism to know to associate the KKK with black people. I wonder what other countries know about the KKK.

Why wouldnt Australians know about another English speaking nation's vocal racist past?

 

[A Human Becoming]

People have African themed decor.

It's like an American theme party - the country is diverse as fuck - but you can still have an American themed party.

I need to find pictures of an American themed party in a foreign country. People dressed to look fat, like cowboys, American football and baseball players would be comical.

 

[Dead Man]

To australians; is there streteotypicals traits associated with the the Aborigines??


For exmaple, I have never been to australia, and I know very little from school about the origins of australia. In our history class we mostly focused on the prison side of things. it was always a footnote, but our history teacher did note that the Aborigines suffered a similiar mate as the native indians in more ways than one.

There are a lot of really shitty stereotypes associated with indigenous Australians. Lazy, drunk, dirty, etc etc. Stereotypically (lol) racist shit. Australia has a pretty shameful legacy of the treatment of the indigenous population. Exterminated in Tasmania, for a long time there was a policy of removing kids from indigenous families and raising them in orphanages or with foster care to make them more western in culture. Pretty horrible stuff. Still a few dodgy laws in place too, and a lack of literacy and health care amongst ingigenous groups too.

Holy shit at the amount of people defending Blackface in this thread.

J'ceaz said it best:

Nah. No exceptions? Every time a person paints their face black it is blackface? Every time they are being racist? Bollocks on that.

 

[Jedeye Sniv]

This is obviously a complex issue but IMO, blackface is now funny for a whole different bunch of reasons than it used to be. Certainly the practice comes from a more insensitive and racist age, but I don't think the usage of it is racist in the same way any more.

In many ways, I think a 'modern' usage of blackface can be very funny indeed, informed as it is by decades of awkwardness, of whites not quite knowing the right things to say any more and inadvertently putting feet in mouths. It can mock a racist tradition. It's funny because it's so wrong. It's funny because there is often a joyful sense of innocence and play involved in completely changing your outward appearance.

These are just thoughts on it, showing that it's far more complex than simply "this is racist and wrong".

The KKK outfit is not only stupid, but it's culturally inaccurate. That's the most offensive part. He should have been a white apartheid supporter dressed in Khakis instead.

 

[Arjen]

I need to find pictures of an American themed party in a foreign country. People dressed to look fat, like cowboys, American football and baseball players would be comical.

American party over here means, bring your own drinks.

 

[marrec]

I need to find pictures of an American themed party in a foreign country. People dressed to look fat, like cowboys, American football and baseball players would be comical.

The question is, can you offend a Philly sports fan by acting as offensive as possible?

 

[Tim the Wiz]

But how does that matter? You're saying that "we consider painting your face black offensive if you're white, and you should stop doing it".
And now you know this Swedish thing that you're doing is offensive, because i just told you. Do you stop doing it?

Or would you say that "this isn't actually offensive in the US, and i'm in the US. But i'll be sure to never do that if i ever visit Sweden. Thank you for the information."

I'm not saying you have to stop doing it. You can be as offensive as you like. In fact, I merely remarked that the party attire was moronic and the blackface was in poor taste; the words, 'and you should stop doing it', never entered my posts.

Personally speaking though: If the pain the Swedish activity brought to others was serious enough, and the only reason people I knew were doing it was to revel in infantile cultural stereotypes for pointless shits and giggles, I wouldn't do activity X in a venue that would cause others that pain.

Now, if I was writing a satire of a religion that most of its own adherents fail to critically grapple with (i.e. The Satanic Verses, The Testament of Mary), I would be more comfortable with my reason for causing others pain.

Basically, context goes a long way. Blackface can work in America even, with stuff like Tropic Thunder or the Lethal Weapon episode of It's Always Sunny, because there's a critical reason for its use; nobody pulls up Louie CK on saying nigger because when he does there's no doubt in your mind he's using it to make a very human point. I suspect there wasn't much thinking involved by the people at this party though.

 

[Pastry]

Nah. No exceptions? Every time a person paints their face black it is blackface? Every time they are being racist? Bollocks on that.

Are there exceptions? Yes. RDJ in Tropic Thunder is an exception because it was being used as satire to make a point about blackface.

Is the person painting their face black to represent a person of African heritage with no intention (or audience) for satire? Then yes it is racist.

 

[Dead Man]

Are there exceptions? Yes. RDJ in Tropic Thunder is an exception because it was being used as satire to make a point about blackface.

Is the person painting their face black to represent a person of African heritage with no intention (or audience) for satire? Then yes it is racist.

I'm not sure you can blame someone for the audience reaction, but other than that I broadly agree.

 

[Jackben]

Lots of angry defensive posts in here. Does everyone realize someone with the same skin color as you can do something stupid and you don't have to defend it? It doesn't reflect badly on you as an individual to not be involved with foolishness.

maybe we should just not paint our faces black for a while

you know, semantics aside, just... just don't do it

Get out of here with that reasonable shit. It's every man's duty to self-righteously defend his right to caricature the race of his choice!

 

[FullMetaltech]

Honestly the costumes were fine and looked right for the theme. But the KKK and Blackface wasnt necessary to have a good time. This and the internet will not end up well for her.

 

[Maninthemirror]

The problem with Australia is that among white folks who are not Australian. , its a great country and not even a hint of racism or even a conversation about it but the moment an indian or pakistani or Sri Lankan or someone from Africa lands, their attitude towards them by a number of Australian (not all of them but a hefty minority) is negative. This is from all my school mates and friends and co workers who are not white and have visited Australia. I am visiting next year so I will report on this then

 

[Jburton]

Australia wins!

http://jezebel.com/racist-21st-birthday-party-gleefully-documented-faceboo-1449394880



I say, minorities should throw a European party, and have smelly people dressed in animal skins throw poops at one another. cuz that's how Europe used to be

Why? ........ They're Australian.


You wouldn't be so ignorant to think all Europeans are Caucasian, would ya?

 

[franknbeans]

Why wouldnt Australians know about another English speaking nation's vocal racist past?

I wouldn't expect Australians to know something as specific as the klan. Just racism in general, if even that much about American history.

 

[Yoshiya]

Mauritius is part of Africa, as far as i know.

??

i meant those in blackface, sorry if that was unclear.

 

[Always-honest]

American party over here means, bring your own drinks.

Haha, that's true.

 

[Jburton]

I wouldn't expect Australians to know something as specific as the klan. Just racism in general, if even that much about American history.

Most people know of the klan, they are well known figures.

 

[Goku]

No one has the right to tell those people that "they're racist" for having a costume party. Yes, there are white people in Africa. That doesn't mean they shouldn't paint themselves. I would say that it would be more offensive if the majority didn't paint themselves, and some did. Those who did paint themselve would then stick out.

 

[Arjen]

I wouldn't expect Australians to know something as specific as the klan. Just racism in general, if even that much about American history.

I think more people know about the KKK then what Blackface means.

 

[Red Blaster]

In many ways, I think a 'modern' usage of blackface can be very funny indeed, informed as it is by decades of awkwardness, of whites not quite knowing the right things to say any more and inadvertently putting feet in mouths. It can mock a racist tradition. It's funny because it's so wrong. It's funny because there is often a joyful sense of innocence and play involved in completely changing your outward appearance.

nah, "i know that you know that i know that i'm not racist so this racist thing is funny" is still racist

 

[AkuMifune]

I hope we're focusing on the dipshit racist parents too. Ok, maybe not racist, but certainly ignorant.

Throw a Barbie on the Barbie.

 

[Htown]

literally people defending an "African" themed party with blackface and KKK costumes

this is goddamn hopeless

 

[marrec]

literally people defending an "African" themed party with blackface and KKK costumes

this is goddamn hopeless

No, you see, it's not offensive because they didn't know.

Also if you're offended then you aren't sensitive to the cultural differences present in Australia.

At least, that's what I get from this thread.

 

[Htown]

I can't even be mad any more.

It's just fucking disappointing and depressing.

 

[Joni]

It's just fucking disappointing and depressing.

Indeed, it's disappointing to see Americans think their culture is the only culture in the world. Blackface is something American, most people don't even know about it. That is what we're arguing about here. It is different from painting your face black.

 

[Trey]

Could have shown out way more in an African themed party than coming dressed as animals, black people, and things that are associated with the black race. I wonder how culturally authentic she tried to make it.

 

[poppabk]

If knowledge of doing X activity being really fucking offensive to Swedes had been widely circulated in global culture for the past several decades, I probably wouldn't do it at an event likely to be broadcast to the world. And unless you're totally naive, that definitely includes Facebook these days.

Would you stay at the Aston Paki Maui hotel in Hawaii?

 

[Joni]

Could have shown out way more in an African themed party than coming dressed as animals, black people, and things that are associated with the black race. I wonder how culturally authentic she tried to make it.

Are the animals becoming a problem now?

 

[Red Blaster]

literally people defending an "African" themed party with blackface and KKK costumes

this is goddamn hopeless

to be fair this is australia, a nation whose watershed moment was being featured in a simpsons episode

 

[AkuMifune]

Indeed, it's disappointing to see Americans think their culture is the only culture in the world. Blackface is something American, most people don't even know about it. That is what we're arguing about here. It is different from painting your face black.

Even if you don't know what blackface is, the act of painting ones face to look like another race is inherently ignorant and racist. Like doing the chinese eyes thing in a picture. You're making a caricature of someone else's identity.

 

[Htown]

Indeed, it's disappointing to see Americans think their culture is the only culture in the world. Blackface is something American, most people don't even know about it. That is what we're arguing about here. It is different from painting your face black.

The Ku Klux Klan is entirely American. Are you going to claim that dressing up as a Klansman is something Australians don't know about as well? That the dude in the picture just happened to show up in white sheets and a hood, which means something different in Australia?

Do what you want.

I'm fucking done.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

Indeed, it's disappointing to see Americans think their culture is the only culture in the world. Blackface is something American, most people don't even know about it. That is what we're arguing about here. It is different from painting your face black.

so let's do this another way. is it okay if people do an asia theme party, and everyone shows up with tapes over their eyes to pull back to their eyes?

 

[Joni]

The Ku Klux Klan is entirely American. Are you going to claim that dressing up as a Klansman is something Australians don't know about as well? That the dude in the picture just happened to show up in white sheets and a hood, which means something different in Australia?

The Ku Klux Klan is not only more known internationally and has always been; but they're also active in Australia. Unlike blackface it is part of history courses and shows up in historical movies. Forrest Gump, Bad Boys II, Scary Movie, Django Unchained, ...

so let's do this another way. is it okay if people do an asia theme party, and everyone shows up with tapes over their eyes to pull back to their eyes?

I never claimed it wasn't misguided. But that is also a lot more known to be offensive.

 

[Enzom21]

Indeed, it's disappointing to see Americans think their culture is the only culture in the world. Blackface is something American, most people don't even know about it. That is what we're arguing about here. It is different from painting your face black.

Let's set aside the debate about whether this particular incident is blackface and address blackface in Australia.

Are you saying Australia has no history of using blackface to demean darker skinned people?

 

[Goku]

Could have shown out way more in an African themed party than coming dressed as animals, black people, and things that are associated with the black race. I wonder how culturally authentic she tried to make it.

Obviously they could have. But they didn't. The general image of Africa is that of black people living there. Yes, there are cities in Afrika that are just as modern as EU or US cities. Dressing up as black guy in a suit isn't really a theme I would like for a party.
Those people are having fun in their own way. It's selfish to give them a checklist of guidelines they have to oblidge to in order to 'not offend people'.

 

[foxuzamaki]

maybe we should just not paint our faces black for a while

you know, semantics aside, just... just don't do it

I agree with this