ryutaro's mama
Member
See my post above this.
Julianne Hough (Actress/Singer/Dancer) Blackface Halloween costume
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See my post above this.
blame space
Banned
should people even be allowed to be non-obvious halloween costumes?
Intent doesn't matter as much as many seem to believe here. Ignorance is one thing - but defense of it, an immediate and clear covering of the ears as well, is an issue as well. Many can and want to forgive good intentions all the time. Its easy. It needs to be acknowledged either way though.
And its really irritating having to explain over and over again to every single person that racism is still racism just because it doesn't end in a lynchmob, slavery, a job being denied, or cops being involved. Casual racism that runs on forgivable ignorance doesn't bother me. Someone checks that person/group at the door and says "Hey, just so you know, that's kinda fucked up. Why? Because X" and the person responds with "Geez - that one is on me. Sorry about that. Won't do it again. Didn't mean to rub you the wrong way" and everything is good.
Things go very differently when that second part is replaced by "Actually, there's nothing wrong with this at all. And you need to stop being so dramatic"
ryutaro's mama
Member
Well, I don't watch that show. If i saw her at a party, I'd assume she was in Blackface as a Black convict in a prison jumpsuit.
And that would likely make me pretty angry.
ryutaro's mama
Member
It bothers me.
"You speak so well" is the most irritating casual racism to me that I experience most.
blame space
Banned
are you saying that talking like a white guy is bad?
ryutaro's mama
Member
Uh, I said I've been told I "speak so well".
Where did I say that I "talked like a White guy"?
Define what "sounding White" is, blame space. Hell, what is "sounding Black" for that matter?
I gotta hear this.
Blackface used wigs, Jules skin is dark, I can understand the argument you make, but this about the wig seems to contradict what people have been arguing that makes the painted face stuff offensive when it is part of a costume.
I get that, I don't think I'd jump to think she was a racist because I didn't understand what she was going for with this costume; not that you're making that leap.
I would have just thought she was an idiot who had no one to check her because she walked out the door.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Well, in that case of Pulp Fiction, assuming Moris had straight hair, someone could think he was Vincent (as they wore the same outfits) instead of Jules.
In this unique case, he could be mistaken for another character without the wig.
Now, I wouldn't be cool if someone just threw on a curly wig where it didn't fit at all.
I hope that makes sense.
I'd rather deal with someone who wears a confederate flag for a shirt than have a conversation with someone who is happy to go through mental gymnastics to tell me how I'm not aware of what is and what isn't blackface and how I and others should or should not be offended by something. Its why I stood clear of the Tiny Tina bullshit and why I dodge a majority of the threads here on GAF regarding race these days.
Its easier to deal with a far right wing, "all minorities just want handouts", hardliner. Far easier.
"She wasn't trying to be racist. She's a good person." Gonna be plenty of it. Okay, sure. I like her too. You can do racist shit and not have any pronounced dislike, hate, or contempt for another race. Its more common and likely to happen actually. But to many its not a big deal until we get to dumb shit like this.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Yeah man. Totally agree.
Coreda
Member
Many asians (and some women generally) make their skin lighter with makeup, many caucasians tan their skin to make it darker (often quite dark) - both times with the desire to be more attractive (to varying success). Is this somehow inherently different because it's only for a one-off costume?
Also if we actually look at the end result, the appearance of a person, doesn't this discussion bring into it other aspects such as men taking on feminine appearances, etc?
Just throwing my thoughts around.
Also if we actually look at the end result, the appearance of a person, doesn't this discussion bring into it other aspects such as men taking on feminine appearances, etc?
Just throwing my thoughts around.
blame space
Banned
you would not rather deal with the confederate flag idiots. they're stupid and no one is telling you how to think or what you're aware of.
Ninja Scooter
Member
She didn't get a tan, she painted her skin to make herself look like a black person. I don't think she meant anything malicious by it, but for someone in her position, who has a team of publicists, agents and managers who you would think could tell her "Hey this might not be a great idea...", it's pretty stupid.
ryutaro's mama
Member
You know EXACTLY where those people are coming from and they aren't shy about it. Casual racism is worse because in a lot of cases, people are unwilling to even see how it is bad and/or offensive.
I think youve mistaken all of bs' posts as something they're not
blame space
Banned
and because someone isn't shy about something that makes it better? make no mistake, both cases of racism are casual, one is just much more likely to see how bad or golly gee offensive it might be.
and it isn't the one flying the confederate flag.
and it isn't the one flying the confederate flag.
Coreda
Member
I understand. I know of people who've tanned excessively and are as dark as she painted herself to be, so my post was actually more about appearances in general, and whether there is an inherent difference between someone deciding to look a certain way and a one-off appearance.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I don't wanna derail this thread but I'm talking about real life experience, man.
I have tried to explain to people in the past that telling me "I speak so well" isn't a compliment.
They don't understand it.
I have had Asian friends get the same shit, in a different way. "Wow, you speak with no accent!"
Some (many here) think that labeling someone or something as racist is a lifelong, inescapable scarlet letter when that isn't the case at all. But that's the kind of talk you can expect to have when such a large number of people did the majority of their thinking about racism in elementary or middle school classrooms.
There's a very distinct difference. Its not about being shy either. Its about the thought that they've put into it.
Giolon
Member
I hope I live to see the day when the American public can get past the knee jerk reaction of calling any light skin person who darkens their skin for a costume or artistic performance "blackface." There's no denying that darkening the skin of white people was just one part of blackface and minstrel shows used to demean and ridicule African-Americans, but to say that doing so is eternally off limits for all but satire is beyond asinine. Intent matters.
If you're costuming, altering your skin color should be considered no different than temporarily changing any part of your physical appearance whether that be a wig, contacts, hair cuts, shaving, false beards, prosthetics, falsies, fat suits, corsets, or anything else. It's what you use those tools to create that matters.
As an aside, that Donut ad from Thailand that was deemed racist? I thought it was striking in its beauty, despite possibly actually being blackface. I'm still somewhat conflicted by it.
And I shouldn't have to say this, but bc people will make assumptions if I don't: I say all of this as an African-American (edit: and of course, I should've expected the other snarky response "well you don't speak for all African-Americans!" No, I obviously don't and am not intending to try. See below." This is just my perspective, and a little bit of my background.)
If you're costuming, altering your skin color should be considered no different than temporarily changing any part of your physical appearance whether that be a wig, contacts, hair cuts, shaving, false beards, prosthetics, falsies, fat suits, corsets, or anything else. It's what you use those tools to create that matters.
As an aside, that Donut ad from Thailand that was deemed racist? I thought it was striking in its beauty, despite possibly actually being blackface. I'm still somewhat conflicted by it.
And I shouldn't have to say this, but bc people will make assumptions if I don't: I say all of this as an African-American (edit: and of course, I should've expected the other snarky response "well you don't speak for all African-Americans!" No, I obviously don't and am not intending to try. See below." This is just my perspective, and a little bit of my background.)
And I shouldn't have to say this either, but you don't speak for all African-Americans
Giolon
Member
And nowhere did I say I did. It's just if I didn't, somebody's gonna hop in assuming, probably even posting, "oh look another white guy with no problem." It's just my sincere hope that at some point in time, people can get beyond just a kneekjerk reaction of "THIS IS BAAAAD!" to a simple cosmetic action. Nothing more, nothing less.
ryutaro's mama
Member
The term, "African-American" has always irked me. It feels like it qualifies (and separates) my Americanism.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
Giolon
Member
I've long been conflicted on that too. I remember thinking about it as early as elementary school. I've still come to no great conclusion.
Honestly, the ignorance of someone throwing on blackface (the 'okay' kind) doesn't surprise that much. Even in 2013. What does bother me, and clearly bothers others who've said as much, is that people will casually dismiss it completely and absolutely to the point where they'd even try and dissuade others into believing that its not an issue at all - and that people are wrong to call it for what it is.
I don't think anyone wants the woman's head on a platter or even a public apology. I think many are just irked to the point of fatigue of having to explain this shit over and over as if its our job to do so. Its not like this is the first time a blackface thread has shown up or the first time people have voiced a clear 'dislike' for it and nearly all of its variances. The argument remains the same. A lot of people don't like it for very clear reasons. Many more people basically just don't give a fuck and either cannot or refuse to see those very clear reasons.
There's nothing kneejerk about it.
killertofu
Member
Does everything have to be so blown up? Idk it's not like she was trying to be some random incarcerated black inmate. It's a character from a tv show...
I think that's different than if she were trying to something else, no?
Idk I had a friend (white) who dressed up as Kanye for Halloween. Around the time he interrupted Taylor Swift. He darkened his skin a bit, put on a ridiculous suede shirt but also shaved his head funky like Kanye. I laughed but whatever.
I'm Asian btw. And I wouldn't be offended if someone slanted their eyes to dress up as an Asian person. But whatever. Maybe my tolerance to racism is just different.
I think that's different than if she were trying to something else, no?
Idk I had a friend (white) who dressed up as Kanye for Halloween. Around the time he interrupted Taylor Swift. He darkened his skin a bit, put on a ridiculous suede shirt but also shaved his head funky like Kanye. I laughed but whatever.
I'm Asian btw. And I wouldn't be offended if someone slanted their eyes to dress up as an Asian person. But whatever. Maybe my tolerance to racism is just different.
Didn't some government official recently got fired because he said that both white people and black people are being lazy(hes white, and I forgot the context)). He pretty much got backlash only because of the black comment.
I think society is way too sensitive.
Nightstick11
Banned
I feel like this is cosplaying, not what blackface historically was.
Monocle
Member
That costume was not blackface and obviously she wasn't trying to demean black people, so the uproar about its offensiveness is just PC wank. Some people get their lulz by offense trolling. It's pretty pathetic to stir up a controversy over nothing. These false alarms, for lack of a better term, indirectly harm marginalized groups by making it easier to dismiss real bigotry.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Amazing.
Monocle
Member
Edited to clarify what I mean.
ryutaro's mama
Member
While I wasn't equating what she did to traditional, malicious blackface, I do feel what she did was in poor taste and like Ninja Scooter said, her handlers should have been in her ear.
I would hardly think that being somewhat offended by what she did is pathetic or offensive PC trolling.
I get what you are trying to say (there are more serious themes of bigotry and injustice) but it feels like you saying anyone that was offended by this, shouldn't be and if they are, they are pathetic and trolling.
People don't all think the same way and there are different levels of being offended.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I'm conflicted here. On the one hand, I think pretty much anyone should know this is offensive, but on the other hand, I want Julianne Hough to have all my babies.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I feel like a lot of people look at the most extreme cases of racism and use that to point out injustices and that is the stuff that matters/counts. Everything else should just be ignored and treated as whatevers. "You being too PC or too sensitive..."
This is the same stuff I hear when people of Native American descent complain about the Redskins or the Braves or that racist as fuck (imo) grinning Indian for the Cleveland Indians. People say all the time that people are too PC...stop being so sensitive...I mean, fuck, that group of people isn't allowed to be offended without being shamed for it? Fans do a gotdamn "Tomahawk Chop" and chant. But no, they should suck it up...stop whining.
Again, if people can still tell me that "I speak so well" and honestly have no idea why that isn't a compliment, then it's easy to see why there are those that can't see why someone might be genuinely offended by Ms. Hough's choices.
Monocle
Member
That's reasonable. If it matters, I clicked this thread expecting some obscene caricature, like a traditional blackface costume. What I saw was mediocre cosplay.
That said, I concede that this isn't a clear cut matter of offensive vs inoffensive.
She supposed to be Crazy Eyes? But her hair isn't black and nappy, nor are there spaces between her teeth. Doesn't seem she's really going for authenticity here; makes me really question why she wanted to paint herself brown.
This guy? The context is that he is a proponent of the Voter ID law, which makes it harder for many black people to vote. He admits that much of the motivating factor of the law was to "hurt Democrats." When he says whites, he adds no adjective. They're just white. But he describes college kids and blacks as lazy. So, it wasn't a good look for him.
Also, I dunno. Society is still pretty hardcore from my perspective. Now people can hear you when you say something stupid - and it is immortalized! It's like playing public relations with the difficulty modifiers on.
This guy? The context is that he is a proponent of the Voter ID law, which makes it harder for many black people to vote. He admits that much of the motivating factor of the law was to "hurt Democrats." When he says whites, he adds no adjective. They're just white. But he describes college kids and blacks as lazy. So, it wasn't a good look for him.
Also, I dunno. Society is still pretty hardcore from my perspective. Now people can hear you when you say something stupid - and it is immortalized! It's like playing public relations with the difficulty modifiers on.
Great post.
Also, the folks in this thread who don't know what black face means, here you go
Merriam-Webster dictionary said:
IT'S BLACK FACE
Her intent may not have been racist (I dont personally know her) but the deep rooted nature in our country of white people painting their face is. Shame on her for being insensitive to that.
ThisWreckage
Banned
I don't think it's the least bit noteworthy because her intent doesn't seem the least bit derogatory. But then again I have more important things to do with my time than do debate whether or not a b list celebrity is in the wrong or the right.
I'm also humored that a certain someone got infinitely salty in this thread and bid farewell by signing off with a "retards" barb.
I'm also humored that a certain someone got infinitely salty in this thread and bid farewell by signing off with a "retards" barb.
I agree, and done without bad intent.
Are you guys blind!?
She's wearing an ID badge with the characters name and face on it.
If you're talking about the guy from the daily show, the same dude later came out and said (direct quote), "When a nigger can use the word nigger and it not be considered racist, that’s the utmost racism in the world, and it’s hypocrisy," so you may want to rethink your PC conspiracy backlash theory on this one.
Still doesn't make her making-up like that racist to me, except if the definition of racism is now "considering that skin color is part of a person appearence".
Supermanisdead
Member
uh, yall realize you can be unintentionally insensitive, right? but no.
"people are always so sensitive. pc police, stephen fry, race card. etc. why cant i trivialize an entire race with centuries of history of being oppressed and demeaned with the exact same actions as i'm doing now?? i mean, my neighbour is black and he's okay with it."
"people are always so sensitive. pc police, stephen fry, race card. etc. why cant i trivialize an entire race with centuries of history of being oppressed and demeaned with the exact same actions as i'm doing now?? i mean, my neighbour is black and he's okay with it."
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