SporeCrawler
Member
How about just buying games on retail stores? Are movie critics getting invited into movie premiers all the time before they write their review?
Cinemablend calls out gaming press, accuses them of living in a Doritocracy
- Thread starter zomgbbqftw
- Start date
How about just buying games on retail stores? Are movie critics getting invited into movie premiers all the time before they write their review?
Nervous Sausage
Member
This wasn't a problem in the PS2/Xbox era where games like Half Life 2 and Doom 3 were still made and ported to Xbox, but skipped PS2. I'm sure unlike the PS2, the Xbox One will at least be able to handle anything the PS4 can, just with reduced image quality, whereas on those consoles, the difference in power was so big that some games were just not possible on PS2.
Sorc3r3r
Member
I hope you are right fellow gaffer.
Pretty pointless. Most people read the reviews prior to the games release to determine their purchase. Reviews done several days after the actual game has already been released count for little. They're kind of stuck on that front.
When this happens, oftentimes you see a big divide between what reviewers and players think. Almost all of the poor scores for Sonic Unleashed on HD systems(Sega primarily sent out review copies of the Wii version) involved the site buying the game. Does that perhaps play a role in the game getting scores at the same range as Sonic 2006? I wouldn't be too shocked to believe so.
If they're not handed something, and they have to pay for it themselves, I would easily assume they become more analytical over the product. In fact, I think most people would be like this, not just game enthusiast press. I think it also plays into the growing divide between what the press finds lovely, but the consumer base is in another realm of being (Dragon Age II is a perfect example of this). One isn't shelling out money for a product.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Well, that just about wraps it up for game journalism.
HocusPocus
Member
I hope both sell out at launch and are the two most profitable consoles ever made. I want both to have fantastic games and unique experiences. There is a hate for Xbox one here and any article like this throws chum in the waters. Can't wait to start hearing positive and fun articles about both platforms. It's freaking gaming and it's supposed to be about fun. People really are sad about the venom they are throwing out, including this article.
Tell me about it heh.
plagiarize
Banned
You certainly see movie reviewers push back against a film where they have to pay to go see it themselves and don't get private screenings. Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho actually got lackluster reviews when it came out, even though most critics by the end of that year already recognized it for the classic it was.
Here is one final thought on this whole mess. We keep being told about the people out there who hooked their cable box up with composite and think it looks brilliant. I'm getting tired of this. Yes, such people exist...
but are we pretending that no one who was ever shown the right way to hook something up to an HDTV was impressed by the difference and thankful for being told how to properly connect things?
before the 360 came out, and before the PS3 came out, we had websites running what amounted to consumer advise about 'make sure you use the component cables with your 360! make sure you set the switch to HDTV!' and 'make sure you use an HDMI cable with your PS3 if your TV has HDMI!'.
I'm sure a bunch of people didn't care. I'm sure some of them would even be like 'I prefer it with the other cables'... but I'm also sure that lots of people were really glad, and really impressed by the difference.
'Most people won't notice. Most people won't care.'
Says who? I mean, it might be true, but I don't think claims like that should be made unsourced.
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
Well, that wait will probably be until 2015 or the fall of 2014. By then, perceptions may be cemented enough that uprooting them will be long and difficult even with evidence. Even perceptions such as "x system has no games" has been hard to eliminate for many gaming systems over the generations after they have released a ton of quality titles.
dr_octagon
Banned
@jschreier
People are always treated like blobs but that doesn't mean criticism of the culture is unfounded (regardless of whether everyone is involved). Those who have a job to sell something should not be part of the discussion and their influence is doing a disservice to both journalists and consumers.
How spin gets addressed is very telling. There is an attempt to shape and influence conclusions. Their job is to sell but this isn't useful for everyday people who are after the facts. It should be kept separate from articles but the influence is pervasive. Journalists are meant to cut through all of this and not put the information through a PR prism. Some do it better than others.
People will buy into the brand and not care about all of this. Technical details may not matter to some. Certain games being exclusive may be more important. But this doesn't mean you ignore the facts, however inconvenient. Having all the information to make a decision will mean people can decide. Assuming people don't care or deciding certain information is unimportant is not helpful. We need side by side comparisons and clear answers. Not everyone is privy to insider knowledge and can translate half answers or vague comments. Basic questions are, for some reason, followed up with non answers. How is this useful for people when there is conflicting information or rumours are treated as genuine information? Those tasked with making sense of things have an important role and people get annoyed when they suspect there is some agenda. Certain views or responses to criticism come across as disingenuous.
It's not a case of 'lololol game journalists love dewritos'. It casts a shadow and trust is important. If you are reading things, on various sites, which later turn out to be untrue - you'd be annoyed. The details and learning about whether something is value for money is a practice we see with other devices. It's an investment and you read reviews, watch videos, check the specifications etc. Granted, there aren't as many options with gaming - this is a very important *toaster purchase.
*(Bread not included, fruit based preserve optional)
People are always treated like blobs but that doesn't mean criticism of the culture is unfounded (regardless of whether everyone is involved). Those who have a job to sell something should not be part of the discussion and their influence is doing a disservice to both journalists and consumers.
How spin gets addressed is very telling. There is an attempt to shape and influence conclusions. Their job is to sell but this isn't useful for everyday people who are after the facts. It should be kept separate from articles but the influence is pervasive. Journalists are meant to cut through all of this and not put the information through a PR prism. Some do it better than others.
People will buy into the brand and not care about all of this. Technical details may not matter to some. Certain games being exclusive may be more important. But this doesn't mean you ignore the facts, however inconvenient. Having all the information to make a decision will mean people can decide. Assuming people don't care or deciding certain information is unimportant is not helpful. We need side by side comparisons and clear answers. Not everyone is privy to insider knowledge and can translate half answers or vague comments. Basic questions are, for some reason, followed up with non answers. How is this useful for people when there is conflicting information or rumours are treated as genuine information? Those tasked with making sense of things have an important role and people get annoyed when they suspect there is some agenda. Certain views or responses to criticism come across as disingenuous.
It's not a case of 'lololol game journalists love dewritos'. It casts a shadow and trust is important. If you are reading things, on various sites, which later turn out to be untrue - you'd be annoyed. The details and learning about whether something is value for money is a practice we see with other devices. It's an investment and you read reviews, watch videos, check the specifications etc. Granted, there aren't as many options with gaming - this is a very important *toaster purchase.
*(Bread not included, fruit based preserve optional)
Kun Aguero
Member
In 5 years time when the PS4 is struggling to run a demanding game in 720p what of the XBO version then?
The Cinema Blend article is a poorly written hit piece. This conspiratorial fluff will fuel a fire for a spell, but it will never get you close to the reality of the situation. Microsoft isn't paying off anyone; games press is just doing their job. The people casting press as Illuminati should be using their imaginative talents to write novels instead.
Clockwork
Member
Are you quoting the right guy?
In any case, the XBO version will simply have to be downgraded in some way in order to meet performance expectations or if that cannot be done it simply won't release on that platform. (the latter is less likely)
Fudgepuppy
Banned
So how is it inside of the industry regarding ad pressure? Do Microsoft hint that they need to write something positive or do they straight up say "If you don't write why Xbone is better than PS4, we will cut you and make you bleed".
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
If the press manages to downplay sales, NEOGAF will implode.lol
plagiarize
Banned
oh, there was one other thing I wanted to say.
If game journalism isn't attracting many people who think it's important to help advise consumers, and it's attracting lots of people that think it's all well and good to talk down about people who care about technical differences, then something is wrong somewhere.
even if it isn't outright corruption (and I don't think it is). It's sort of like politics (bare with the analogy). Politics attracts a lot of the wrong kind of people, which suggests that things need to be changed. It doesn't suggest a large conspiracy...
again... unlike cinemablend that wouldn't be my take away from all these articles... but instead of just rushing to shoot down that one explanation for all these articles, it'd be good to see someone in the gaming space trying to find out why the mindset is what it is.
just as it'd be good to see someone in the gaming space trying to make sure people who are uninformed about these technical differences have enough information to help them make an informed choice, instead of using uninformed people as an excuse for not doing so.
people *want* to understand the difference. we've had loads of people asking lots of questions about all this on GAF. I'm sure even being shown the technical differences that people will still bring other factors to the table when choosing their next system. I'm sure plenty of the people who are informed are buying Xbox One, even if more are buying PS4. that doesn't mean that they don't want to know how big the technical difference is to include it in their thinking, and again, I'd point to the threads on these issues here on GAF as plenty of evidence that there are people asking for such information.
but when you have people calling out to be informed, and we basically only have a subsection of one website doing their best job of providing that information (and arguably not doing a very good job of it, although I think digital foundry's stuff on this has been pretty good, it's not really written to an audience who aren't already somewhat versed in the technical details), yeah. I'm going to call it out. The specialist press aren't answering the questions their audience are asking, and if they don't know the answers, they don't seem to be trying to find them.
If game journalism isn't attracting many people who think it's important to help advise consumers, and it's attracting lots of people that think it's all well and good to talk down about people who care about technical differences, then something is wrong somewhere.
even if it isn't outright corruption (and I don't think it is). It's sort of like politics (bare with the analogy). Politics attracts a lot of the wrong kind of people, which suggests that things need to be changed. It doesn't suggest a large conspiracy...
again... unlike cinemablend that wouldn't be my take away from all these articles... but instead of just rushing to shoot down that one explanation for all these articles, it'd be good to see someone in the gaming space trying to find out why the mindset is what it is.
just as it'd be good to see someone in the gaming space trying to make sure people who are uninformed about these technical differences have enough information to help them make an informed choice, instead of using uninformed people as an excuse for not doing so.
people *want* to understand the difference. we've had loads of people asking lots of questions about all this on GAF. I'm sure even being shown the technical differences that people will still bring other factors to the table when choosing their next system. I'm sure plenty of the people who are informed are buying Xbox One, even if more are buying PS4. that doesn't mean that they don't want to know how big the technical difference is to include it in their thinking, and again, I'd point to the threads on these issues here on GAF as plenty of evidence that there are people asking for such information.
but when you have people calling out to be informed, and we basically only have a subsection of one website doing their best job of providing that information (and arguably not doing a very good job of it, although I think digital foundry's stuff on this has been pretty good, it's not really written to an audience who aren't already somewhat versed in the technical details), yeah. I'm going to call it out. The specialist press aren't answering the questions their audience are asking, and if they don't know the answers, they don't seem to be trying to find them.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
I remember seeing that post by a gaffer where Eurogamer said the difference between 600 and 720 (something like that) was massive yet the difference between 1080 and 720 was not noticeable. Gimme a break gaemz journalism. Your a joke and you know it.
The amount of websites that are trying to downplay the 720 and 1080 difference of a mulitplatform game (one of the biggest in our industry) yet throughout this entire generation spoke of how superior 360 ports of several games were in comparison to their ps3 counterparts despite the difference being no where as big as the XB1 and PS4 difference is simply astonishing and illuminating.
The amount of websites that are trying to downplay the 720 and 1080 difference of a mulitplatform game (one of the biggest in our industry) yet throughout this entire generation spoke of how superior 360 ports of several games were in comparison to their ps3 counterparts despite the difference being no where as big as the XB1 and PS4 difference is simply astonishing and illuminating.
Nervous Sausage
Member
Good point. Personally I'd be playing it on PC better than both consoles anyway, just as I went to PC in the second half of this generation when the consoles started showing their age and when PC started getting quality ports.
The death of journalism right there.
Kun Aguero
Member
Yes I was quoting nervous sausage. I can foresee problems for XBO particularly in MP gaming some years down the line.
Clockwork
Member
People that want HD but don't have an HDMI port available? Those heathens!
(I know you meant composite, just poking fun)
stump sock
Member
Quoting this again because, wow, you actually thought this was a good sentence to type.
plagiarize
Banned
thank you for catching this!
Never change prism lol. Seriously though, I don't think you're gloating is gonna go over well with people.
Whether or not some individual writers, and some specific sites are doing a good job isn't especially relevant to whether or not there is a major problem. The fact that traffic seems to be your number one priority isn't exactly encouraging.
I write for a blog - albeit not for a living - and I like to see that what I write gets read by a decent number of people (I'm talking thousands, I'm sure your articles go into the tens, and hundreds of thousands), but readership numbers aren't the first thing I'd bring out if I was trying to defend myself. The response "but we're popular" to this criticism of games journalism is desperately shallow and spectacularly ironic.
I'll tell you why you should be worried: because trust in games journalists is dropping by the minute. That reflects terribly on your profession. If you can't see why that is happening, it's hard to separate you from them.
AtomicShroom
Member
They can't because of competition. One of the most important factors that determine your survival in journalism is your ability to be the first to break out a story. Most newspapers/magazines pride themselves on getting premieres and exclusives: it's what drives the money and keeps them afloat. No one, and I mean no one is going to care for your review if it comes out two weeks after all the other guys who played by the publisher's dirty rules. And you'll see this in any field: when someone uses a method that gives them an unfair head start over others, the others will be quick to follow suit lest they be defeated. This is the reason athletes cheat and take drugs despite the risks: if you don't, you don't stand a chance.
I always wondered if a website could survive without game-related ads, but I suppose the audience makeup has some blame for that.
What can you advertise to gamers that isn't games?
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
SporeCrawler
Member
i would say the most important one is credibility
thats a thing gaming journalist as a whole have lost over the last few years and that also is reflected on how little the scores now matter for buying decisions.
there was a survey that showed that game reviews will only amount to 10% of the factors that decide what games you are going to buy.
maybe journos need to think about that and sacrifice fastness to a bit more credibility?
AtomicShroom
Member
Doritos and Mtn Dew
Plenty of things. After all, gamers have needs beyond games.
Anyway, accusations that the press are just trying to appease advertisers are inherently false. Writers and marketing are almost always separate teams with no overlap. If an advertiser decides to pull their marketing or not send games early, the company can always buy the game day one and put out a review later.
It especially baffles me when Giant Bomb is accused of this. Perhaps people missed the whole ordeal Jeff Gerstmann went through? Giant Bomb is the most trustworthy source ever. They may not get news and impressions out as early, but when they do, you can always guarantee they're being honest.
michaelius
Banned
Doesn't seem to be so important when IGN, Polygon and Kotaku still exist.
Clockwork
Member
I think the difference with that is 720p ends up being the point where things start looking "good enough".
Take for example RDR or GTA IV on PS3. There was noticeable difference in IQ that resulted from only a minor difference in resolution between the two. Now I bought the PS3 versions, but I honestly would have preferred them on 360 due to this (GTA IV filtering issues aside).
Whereas on PS4 and XBOX One I find myself being able to recognize that the PS4 version of the game is visually superior, but at the same time do not find the XBO version unappealing (in the same way I don't find existing 360/PS3 games unappealing).
The difference does assist in determining the best value proposition, which his why I preordered PS4 on day one and at the same time cancelled my XBO day one preorder just a couple weeks ago. However, I would be hard pressed to say I would not enjoy gaming on XBO. I just don't see the need when I can get a superior product (at least in regards to gaming) for less money.
Rami Ismail (one half of Vlambeer) on the resolution controversy:
"So I hear that the Xbox One outputs half the native pixels the PS4 pushes. Cool. Don't care. Which one has the games & services I like? This generation 'console war' isn't about powerful boxes, it's about games, content, usability & services. Console tech should be invisible."
https://twitter.com/tha_rami
I agree with him.
"So I hear that the Xbox One outputs half the native pixels the PS4 pushes. Cool. Don't care. Which one has the games & services I like? This generation 'console war' isn't about powerful boxes, it's about games, content, usability & services. Console tech should be invisible."
https://twitter.com/tha_rami
I agree with him.
lmao, that is the anti-Dennis right there. He manages to get everything completely ass-backwards.
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
This is not the gaming press that we need but the gaming press that we deserve.
If people are unwilling to pay for gaming news that they consume then you can't really complain if you're fed a never ending stream of click-bait headlines and tabloid quality journalism.
Wrestlemania
Banned
I would agree with him if it wasn't for the fact that the vast majority of games I play next gen will be multiplatform and there's looking to be one console which will have a significant advantage over the other.
stump sock
Member
I pay for Giant Bomb. Meanwhile you'd basically have to pay me to read Kotaku or Polygon at this point. Shameful.
Iorv3th
Member
It's that they were so damn condescending while they said it too. Saying that only gaffers would argue about such 'petty' stuff. Nobody else would even notice it. Etc.
The way they act so high and mighty. Shit we are gamers just like them, yet our opinion is somehow worthless and to be laughed at as "this is the internet, lulz". Hell most of the articles these guys end up posting is news that gets broken on GAF, yet at the same time they think they can belittle us in other situations. They know they are shit and are try to act like they aren't.
Glad to hear that.
Totilo was a good hire, as were you. Your site doesn't give scores, and by-in-large you guys are actually fair and balanced. But I'd say that Kotaku isn't the norm, nor are you.
Oh no doubt, but for me the PS4 advantage is much different than the better resolution. It's their generous indie publishing practices, the PS+ service, and the cross-platform play in addition to the Sony exclusives. But if it were 720p, it wouldn't make a difference to me.
And lets not forget Kuchera calling gaf nothing more than a human centipede.
The traffic at this time will be high regardless. I believe this is kotaku's first major console launch? What matters is the traffic afterward when everything goes back to normal. Will it be less than before due to lack of credibility with your core audience?
In all fairness the ps3 versions were criticized for not really working in some instances such as with bayonetta and bethesda games not just for worse performance.
But it is pretty much a guarantee at this point that every multiplatform game will perform worse on xbone which is a huge problem for a console that is $100 more and focuses so heavily on third party games.
I still really think that "casual" gamers care a lot more about resolution than people are giving them credit for.
deputyspade
Member
I imagine the PS4's exclusives will also be superior to xb1's with the great first party studios they have and the extra power.