Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. |OT| Tahiti is a Magical Place (to...Hey guys, I found it!)

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Eppy Thatcher

God's had his chance.
I don't think SHIELD intended for Skye to hack and give the information to Coulson. At all. What I got was that no one at SHIELD really cares much for Coulson getting his own team and doing what he wants, with queen bitch trying to fuck the team over just because.

I dunno .. she had that wry smile on at the end like "Yep. I knew i didn't need to waste a helo on Coulson's people. Back to business..."

SHIELD have never been gun-ho meat shield kind of people in the comics and the idea that they would build up an agent like Coulson over the course of ... fuck... like 5-6 years? and then basically shaft half his hand picked super team for some completely ridiculous op (that would not have even been a blink of an eye in the comics "super weapon eh... can we hit with tak missles before it revs up? Cool. Do it and then sanitize the area."

Im not saying i'm wrong... and they could be setting this up as like a mini shield within shield but ... if they are gonna be the far edge team that does their own thing how in the fuck will they reconcile that entire idea when a BIG ass bad finally comes around? You gonna send Fitz against gravitron??!!

Just feels odd to me at the moment. I did really like Mae's "conversation" with Coulson where she just gave him "Are you fucking serious" eyes over and over again :)
 
Hand definitely doesn't give a fuck about Coulson or his team.

Show should end with Coulson burning SHIELD to the ground and rebuilding it.

Why? Why the fuck not.
 
I dunno .. she had that wry smile on at the end like "Yep. I knew i didn't need to waste a helo on Coulson's people. Back to business..."

SHIELD have never been gun-ho meat shield kind of people in the comics and the idea that they would build up an agent like Coulson over the course of ... fuck... like 5-6 years? and then basically shaft half his hand picked super team for some completely ridiculous op (that would not have even been a blink of an eye in the comics "super weapon eh... can we hit with tak missles before it revs up? Cool. Do it and then sanitize the area."

Im not saying i'm wrong... and they could be setting this up as like a mini shield within shield but ... if they are gonna be the far edge team that does their own thing how in the fuck will they reconcile that entire idea when a BIG ass bad finally comes around? You gonna send Fitz against gravitron??!!

Just feels odd to me at the moment. I did really like Mae's "conversation" with Coulson where she just gave him "Are you fucking serious" eyes over and over again :)

I doubt Fury was even told the details on the mission, so it's not as if SHIELD as an entity was behind the lack of extraction. It was Hand herself. Her OP, her planning/strat.

As for the "mini SHIELD within SHIELD" I think that's the idea but not quite the way you're suggesting. I think Hand will end up heading up/gathering a segment of SHIELD that doesn't exactly work towards the same end that Fury intends. Not quite Double Agents but definitely a more ruthless and morally ambiguous sub section. It won't be anything official necessarily. Just like a network of operatives that she will ultimately command.

Or if they really want to go the full nine, they'll just have her be a plant/double agent who's working for the mystery big bad organization (which seems like it would be AIM).

Hand definitely doesn't give a fuck about Coulson or his team.

Pretty much. At the very least she has no respect for Coulson and his team. At the most, she hates them.
 
For real, I almost feel guilty looking forward to next weeks episode.



Sounds like Avengers 3's villains right there.

We'd probably get that in Captain America 3 or something... the poetry, man. Coulson returning with his ragtag team to destroy Hand after she's wrested control of SHIELD from Fury and Captain America caught in the middle.

I doubt Fury was even told the details on the mission, so it's not as if SHIELD as an entity was behind the lack of extraction. It was Hand herself. Her OP, her planning/strat.

As for the "mini SHIELD within SHIELD" I think that's the idea but not quite the way you're suggesting. I think Hand will end up heading up/gathering a segment of SHIELD that doesn't exactly work towards the same end that Fury intends. Not quite Double Agents but definitely a more ruthless and morally ambiguous sub section. It won't be anything official necessarily. Just like a network of operatives that she will ultimately command.

Or if they really want to go the full nine, they'll just have her be a plant/double agent who's working for the mystery big bad organization (which seems like it would be AIM).



Pretty much. At the very least she has no respect for Coulson and his team. At the most, she hates them.

Definitely. She'll make for an interesting antagonist. She'll be the turning point for Coulson.
 

Veelk

Banned
Honestly, what I don't get about the general negative reaction to the show is how little, technically atleast, it does wrong.

Due to the premise, we have settings and missions that actually vary. We've been in New York, the Amazon Jungle, Paris (I think? Some European city), Hong Kong. The missions vary from straight up assault, to espionage and infiltration, to medical drama, depending on what kind of threat they are dealing with. Frankly, we get a fair amount of variety episode to episode.

Characters-wise, we get a fairly diverse group. I won't argue that they didn't start out as archtypes, but so what? Plenty of characters do, but through development, they grow into more. And I would definitely argue that all the main characters are getting development. Skye is becoming disillusioned from her previous view of shield as this oppressive gov. agency and the danger of her philosophy of entirely free information. Her priorites, as we have seen in the latest episode, are being reorganized. Ward is slowly becoming more and more comfortable with working with his team. FitzSimmons started out as nothing but quirky nerds with the only difference being is that Fitz was somewhat neurotic and Simmons ditzy. But Fitz is developing into an intellectual badass and Simmons is getting a stronger handle on reality by being forced to deal with real, personal situations like when she had to face her death. And Coulson has had increasing self doubts about his death and now is beginning to question shield. May is the only one who has remained somewhat static, but I doubt that will last. The characters are gaining depth at a steady pace.

In terms of pacing, there is clearly an overarching story at play here, but they are taking their time setting up the main cast (and status quo) before they bring in the big villains, which is fine by me. Atleast 3 of the 6 episodes thus far dealt with villains who are obviously going to show up again, which seems perfectly reasonable to counter balance that with isolated episodes that focus on the cast. On a minute to minute basis, the pacing seems decent enough. I can't think of many scenes where I felt that my time was being wasted. Which is not to say it's perfect, but if I were to count the time I felt a scene could be cut or shortened, the total would not add up to more than a few minutes at most.

Acting wise, I'm going to keep this short, since I apparently don't have a good eye as to waht is 'good' or 'bad' acting, but the actions of all the characters makes sense within the universe they are in. Yeah, they're oddballs and somewhat cartoonish, but, fuck, if that's your complaint, have you ever seen a marvel movie before?

I'm sure you guys have your own personal issues with them and of course you're entitled to that...but honestly, have you seen walking dead? Or the last 4 seasons of Dexter? Or RWBY (which I actually liked but will easily admit to it's numerous flaws)? Those have truly bad writing. They meander around with pointless characters and plots and incomprehensible arcs and such poor acting that even I can tell its bad and stupidity, oh god, the stupdity. As far as I know, those haven't shown up much, if at all, in AoS.

Agents of Shield is doing a lot of things right. It doesn't mean you have to like it, but just in terms of the mechanics of what is commonly understood to be good writing, there aren't a lot of criticisms I'm seeing being made besides the general feeling of not liking a character because she's 'annoying' or the danger not 'feeling' real, which are more personal issues rather than errors in writing.
 
I'm sure you guys have your own personal issues with them and of course you're entitled to that...but honestly, have you seen walking dead? Or the last 4 seasons of Dexter? Or RWBY (which I actually liked but will easily admit to it's numerous flaws)? Those have truly bad writing. They meander around with pointless characters and plots and incomprehensible arcs and such poor acting that even I can tell its bad and stupidity, oh god, the stupdity. As far as I know, those haven't shown up much, if at all, in AoS.

Don't remind me.

Please... don't ever remind me again.
 
Good shit veelk.

I've found myself to be more emotionally invested in the show as it progresses, especially the last two eps. Characters are coming along. It's like people want to have developed characters and scenarios with out actually going through the time it takes to develop them.
 

Mariolee

Member
Wait. So those music videos of Chloe Bennet before. Those were actually HER? I thought it was just some look a like. Holy crap.

This changes everything.
 

Dryk

Member
So people that have had a chance to see Thor 2 (;_;) does it look like next week's episode will be safe for me to watch?
 

neoanarch

Member
So people that have had a chance to see Thor 2 (;_;) does it look like next week's episode will be safe for me to watch?

Major Spoiler do not highlight if you haven't seen it

Thor saves the day
it will be safe to watch that is all you need to know.
 

fallengorn

Bitches love smiley faces
So people that have had a chance to see Thor 2 (;_;) does it look like next week's episode will be safe for me to watch?

Judging from the preview yeah.
Seems like it revolves around an Asgardian staff, which Thor 2 had nothing to do with.
There might be some references to events in the movie though, who knows.
 

Patryn

Member
Honestly, what I don't get about the general negative reaction to the show is how little, technically atleast, it does wrong.

Due to the premise, we have settings and missions that actually vary. We've been in New York, the Amazon Jungle, Paris (I think? Some European city), Hong Kong. The missions vary from straight up assault, to espionage and infiltration, to medical drama, depending on what kind of threat they are dealing with. Frankly, we get a fair amount of variety episode to episode.

Characters-wise, we get a fairly diverse group. I won't argue that they didn't start out as archtypes, but so what? Plenty of characters do, but through development, they grow into more. And I would definitely argue that all the main characters are getting development. Skye is becoming disillusioned from her previous view of shield as this oppressive gov. agency and the danger of her philosophy of entirely free information. Her priorites, as we have seen in the latest episode, are being reorganized. Ward is slowly becoming more and more comfortable with working with his team. FitzSimmons started out as nothing but quirky nerds with the only difference being is that Fitz was somewhat neurotic and Simmons ditzy. But Fitz is developing into an intellectual badass and Simmons is getting a stronger handle on reality by being forced to deal with real, personal situations like when she had to face her death. And Coulson has had increasing self doubts about his death and now is beginning to question shield. May is the only one who has remained somewhat static, but I doubt that will last. The characters are gaining depth at a steady pace.

In terms of pacing, there is clearly an overarching story at play here, but they are taking their time setting up the main cast (and status quo) before they bring in the big villains, which is fine by me. Atleast 3 of the 6 episodes thus far dealt with villains who are obviously going to show up again, which seems perfectly reasonable to counter balance that with isolated episodes that focus on the cast. On a minute to minute basis, the pacing seems decent enough. I can't think of many scenes where I felt that my time was being wasted. Which is not to say it's perfect, but if I were to count the time I felt a scene could be cut or shortened, the total would not add up to more than a few minutes at most.

Acting wise, I'm going to keep this short, since I apparently don't have a good eye as to waht is 'good' or 'bad' acting, but the actions of all the characters makes sense within the universe they are in. Yeah, they're oddballs and somewhat cartoonish, but, fuck, if that's your complaint, have you ever seen a marvel movie before?

I'm sure you guys have your own personal issues with them and of course you're entitled to that...but honestly, have you seen walking dead? Or the last 4 seasons of Dexter? Or RWBY (which I actually liked but will easily admit to it's numerous flaws)? Those have truly bad writing. They meander around with pointless characters and plots and incomprehensible arcs and such poor acting that even I can tell its bad and stupidity, oh god, the stupdity. As far as I know, those haven't shown up much, if at all, in AoS.

Agents of Shield is doing a lot of things right. It doesn't mean you have to like it, but just in terms of the mechanics of what is commonly understood to be good writing, there aren't a lot of criticisms I'm seeing being made besides the general feeling of not liking a character because she's 'annoying' or the danger not 'feeling' real, which are more personal issues rather than errors in writing.

Just because it checks all the boxes doesn't make it GOOD. It makes it sound like it feels: That it's a show that was assembled in a factory.

Yes, TWD may have worse writing, but at least it has some passion behind it. SHIELD's problem for me is that it feels sterile and lifeless.

I think going procedural isn't the major mistake others do. I have loved other procedurals. The problem is that the characters aren't really working, IMO. In their desire to add a few serialized elements to the show, they basically cut almost three characters off at the knees by making their backstory all MYSTERIOUS. The writers seem to feel that the mystery of what's up with Skye, Coulson and May should be enough to make us like them, and it's really not.

Honestly, if Coulson didn't have all the good will from the Marvel movies, I have no idea why we'd like him.

The writers need to refocus and look to shows like X-Files, NCIS, Castle and Bones and see why people like them. It's about the characters. You need to make the characters likeable, and make the audience invested in them.

I think they're beginning to get there with Fitz and Simmons, but that's about it.

And they really need to do some major surgery on Skye, because if she's supposed to be the audience's POV character, they're doing a terrible job. She's simply coming off as whiny, and with her mysterious potential loyalties and mysterious background, we don't even have a full idea of who her character is.
 

royalan

Member
Yes, TWD may have worse writing, but at least it has some passion behind it. SHIELD's problem for me is that it feels sterile and lifeless.

And that's not even true.

Don't get me wrong, TWD has its own problems, but the writing/dialogue is one of the things it consistently gets right (if not always the plot surrounding the dialogue). TWD's problem is that too often it loses the balance between drama and action/progression and we get streams of episodes where nothing really happens. But when TWD nails that balance (and they do in at least a handful of episodes every season), it's in another league entirely.

Nothing we've seen so far in S.H.I.E.L.D. has come close to the emotional resonance of Carol and Rick's conversations from just two episodes ago. Or, hell, any of Herchel's lines.

One of the big differences is the writers for TWD write their dialogue to fit the characters, and not just the archetype the characters are supposed to be filling.

So, I agree with your point entirely. Checking all the boxes doesn't make a show good. In fact, thinking that's all it takes to make a show good is exactly S.H.I.E.L.D.'s problem right now. It's one of those unidentifiable things that people will say doesn't really mean anything, but the show has no heart. No conviction.
And no good actors.
 

Veelk

Banned
Just because it checks all the boxes doesn't make it GOOD. It makes it sound like it feels: That it's a show that was assembled in a factory.

Yes, TWD may have worse writing, but at least it has some passion behind it. SHIELD's problem for me is that it feels sterile and lifeless.

I think going procedural isn't the major mistake others do. I have loved other procedurals. The problem is that the characters aren't really working, IMO. In their desire to add a few serialized elements to the show, they basically cut almost three characters off at the knees by making their backstory all MYSTERIOUS. The writers seem to feel that the mystery of what's up with Skye, Coulson and May should be enough to make us like them, and it's really not.

Honestly, if Coulson didn't have all the good will from the Marvel movies, I have no idea why we'd like him.

The writers need to refocus and look to shows like X-Files, NCIS, Castle and Bones and see why people like them. It's about the characters. You need to make the characters likeable, and make the audience invested in them.

I think they're beginning to get there with Fitz and Simmons, but that's about it.

I have no idea how the hell you're suppose to quantify 'lifelessness' and 'sterility' as opposed to TWD's 'passion'. I could easily say the opposite, that TWD is just an executive cash-in on the popularity of zombies and this one comic while the writers of AoS show more passion by putting in the effort to make the writing good. Both of our statements, despite being contradictory, are equally valid because they are based on nothing but vague feelings we have as the audience. Comments like "Sterile" and "lifelessness" are utterly arbitrary if you don't have any solid foundation to back them up with. They may be useful in explaining how you feel, but I totally disagree that they should have any bearing on what makes a show good.

And they really need to do some major surgery on Skye, because if she's supposed to be the audience's POV character, they're doing a terrible job. She's simply coming off as whiny, and with her mysterious potential loyalties and mysterious background, we don't even have a full idea of who her character is.

If this thread is any indication, that is clearly not the case :p

But seriously, if you don't know, then pay attention to her character. She complains about legitimate issues and her conflicting loyalties lie there because Shield is an organization that stands against what she believes in while she finds people she cares about within it. Her character is one that seeks to find the truth about her past and that has been her driving motivation from the beginning.

And that's not even true.

Don't get me wrong, TWD has its own problems, but the writing/dialogue is one of the things it consistently gets right (if not always the plot surrounding the dialogue). TWD's problem is that too often it loses the balance between drama and action/progression and we get streams of episodes where nothing really happens. But when TWD nails that balance (and they do in at least a handful of episodes every season), it's in another league entirely.

Nothing we've seen so far in S.H.I.E.L.D. has come close to the emotional resonance of Carol and Rick's conversations from just two episodes ago. Or, hell, any of Herchel's lines.

One of the big differences is the writers for TWD write their dialogue to fit the characters, and not just the archetype the characters are supposed to be filling.

So, I agree with your point entirely. Checking all the boxes doesn't make a show good. In fact, thinking that's all it takes to make is show good is exactly S.H.I.E.L.D.'s problem right now. It's one of those unquantifiable things that people will say doesn't really mean anything, but the show has no heart. No conviction.
And no good actors.
Nope nope nope nope nope.

Walking dead is hands down the worst show I'm watching right now. It doesn't get anything right. Every character is a moron extraordinaire and the acting is often overwrought. The dialogue is pretty ordinary. In contrast, AoS's isn't realistic, but it does fit the universe its in. Again, this universe is slightly cartoonish and characters ought to be unrealistically witty and goofy. It makes me consistently laugh at the jokes and, though this is just my subjective experience, when they tried to do a dramatic scene, it doesn't make me laugh like Rick does every time he tries to be teary. You can't have emotional resonance when every bit of the foundation is built so unbelievably that you can't get get immersed in the setting because your laughing at how terrible everything is.

Walking dead suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks in ever damn way except maybe gore.
 

Patryn

Member
But seriously, if you don't know, then pay attention to her character. She complains about legitimate issues and her conflicting loyalties lie there because Shield is an organization that stands against what she believes in while she finds people she cares about within it. Her character is one that seeks to find the truth about her past and that has been her driving motivation from the beginning.

This is what I'm talking about in regards to sterile and lifeless. You're right in theory. You have what her character is.... on paper.

In reality, I just want her to shut the fuck up because she is so annoying. Yes, she's a looker, but her acting is terrible and I still don't understand why she hasn't been kicked off the Bus. Rather than having me sympathize with her, I instead kind of hate her character and thus want the opposite of what she wants.
 

Veelk

Banned
This is what I'm talking about in regards to sterile and lifeless. You're right in theory. You have what her character is.... on paper.

In reality, I just want her to shut the fuck up because she is so annoying. Yes, she's a looker, but her acting is terrible and I still don't understand why she hasn't been kicked off the Bus. Rather than having me sympathize with her, I instead kind of hate her character and thus want the opposite of what she wants.

Well, that's you're problem, not hers. As I explained, feelings are a poor indicator of what good writing is. I don't know why you feel this way, but that doesn't make the writing or acting bad. For that, you need to find a flaw in the show, not just react to it.
 

Apoc29

Member
Is the team going to be reprimanded for disobeying orders, hacking into Level 8 classified files, assaulting a senior agent, surviving a mission in which they were supposed to die? Nah, they'll probably be let off with a warning.

Why don't we see any "cool" agents? Nick Fury is the leader and he wears a leather coat and eyepatch. Meanwhile at the Hub, we got suits and stuffed shirts up the wazoo.
 

Patryn

Member
Well, that's you're problem, not hers. As I explained, feelings are a poor indicator of what good writing is.

But they are a good indicator of whether I think it's a good show. And I suspect, given the falling ratings, that there's quite a few people who agree with me.

Regardless of how you feel, you can't argue that the show has a massive problem. It has to find its floor soon, or it is doomed to be a one-season flameout like Flash Forward or The Event.
 

Joni

Member
Well, that's you're problem, not hers. As I explained, feelings are a poor indicator of what good writing is.
Feelings are a very good indicator if the viewer needs to feel with and not against a character. If all viewers hate a character that is supposed to be likeable, they're messing up.
 

royalan

Member
Nope nope nope nope nope.

Walking dead is hands down the worst show I'm watching right now. It doesn't get anything right. Every character is a moron extraordinaire and the acting is often overwrought. The dialogue is pretty ordinary. In contrast, AoS's isn't realistic, but it does fit the universe its in. Again, this universe is slightly cartoonish and characters ought to be unrealistically witty and goofy. It makes me consistently laugh at the jokes and, though this is just my subjective experience, when they tried to do a dramatic scene, it doesn't make me laugh like Rick does every time he tries to be teary. You can't have emotional resonance when every bit of the foundation is built so unbelievably that you can't get get immersed in the setting because your laughing at how terrible everything is.

Walking dead suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks in ever damn way except maybe gore.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think TWD's writing is on a completely different tier from AoS. And I think AoS's insistence on slapstick hurts it more than helps it.
 

Veelk

Banned
But they are a good indicator of whether I think it's a good show. And I suspect, given the falling ratings, that there's quite a few people who agree with me.

True, but that doesn't mean it's badly written, and that's all I'm striving to state. AoS is a decently written show that, for whatever reason, is failing to capture an audience. That's the exectives problem however, not the writers. AoS would hardly be the first decently written show to fail due to lack of audience.

Feelings are a very good indicator if the viewer needs to feel with and not against a character. If all viewers hate a character that is supposed to be likeable, they're messing up.
Maybe, but failure on delivering authorial intent also does not necessarily make the writing bad. It's just not what the writer intended.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think TWD's writing is on a completely different tier from AoS. And I think AoS's insistence on slapstick hurts it more than helps it.

Fair enough, but I see very few, if any, redeeming about TWD. The best thing about it is the gore and that's pretty much it. I can't see anyone making an argument for it beyond that.

As for AoS, it doesn't have any slapstick. Slap stick is physical comedy, like tom and jerry. AoS mostly relies on verbal, sarcastic humor.
 

Patryn

Member
True, but that doesn't mean it's badly written, and that's all I'm striving to state. AoS is a decently written show that, for whatever reason, is failing to capture an audience. That's the exectives problem however, not the writers.


Maybe, but failure on delivering authorial intent also does not necessarily make the writing bad. It's just not what the writer intended.

But I'm stating the reason. We agree that theoretically the characters are sound. That doesn't change the fact that a large chunk of the audience doesn't seem to be connecting to them. And that's likely the number one reason why the ratings are falling. People don't tune to procedurals for the case of the week. They tune to watch characters they like.

And they don't like this set of characters.
 

Veelk

Banned
But I'm stating the reason. We agree that theoretically the characters are sound. That doesn't change the fact that a large chunk of the audience doesn't seem to be connecting to them. And that's likely the number one reason why the ratings are falling. People don't tune to procedurals for the case of the week. They tune to watch characters they like.

And they don't like this set of characters.

That seems too much of a leap. They could not be enjoying the show for a hundred different reasons. They might feel nuetral about the characters, but be disappointed by not having Iron man and Thor and the like. They might like the characters, but not feeling the plot. They might want more special effects. Or, they might not like the characters, as you say. We can't tell. The only thing we can say is that the show isn't resonating with a lot of people, for whatever reason. But again, that's the execs problem and only really ours if they don't resolve things this season and it gets cancelled, but I'm willing to cross that bridge when we get there.
 

royalan

Member
As for AoS, it doesn't have any slapstick. Slap stick is physical comedy, like tom and jerry. AoS mostly relies on verbal, sarcastic humor.

Yeah, though it hits me like slapstick because of how wildly out of place most of it feels.

--Team discovers a dead body floating by mysterious means.

--We can't let the emotional weight of this moment settle. Quick! Lets throw in a Fitz/Simmons gag about how they're super-nerds who talk over each other!
 
Is the team going to be reprimanded for disobeying orders, hacking into Level 8 classified files, assaulting a senior agent, surviving a mission in which they were supposed to die? Nah, they'll probably be let off with a warning.

Why don't we see any "cool" agents? Nick Fury is the leader and he wears a leather coat and eyepatch. Meanwhile at the Hub, we got suits and stuffed shirts up the wazoo.

The team doesn't get reprimanded because Coulson ranks highly in Fury's regard and they've yet to really fail.

But they are a good indicator of whether I think it's a good show. And I suspect, given the falling ratings, that there's quite a few people who agree with me.

Regardless of how you feel, you can't argue that the show has a massive problem. It has to find its floor soon, or it is doomed to be a one-season flameout like Flash Forward or The Event.

The ratings don't mean much of anything aside from the fact that there are less people watching than did at the beginning.

And for the umpteenth time, we're less than halfway through a 22 episode season for a show that has a MAJOR push from the studio. The show's still doing well competitively for the time slot. It's still too early to start claiming it's close to cancellation.


Feelings are a very good indicator if the viewer needs to feel with and not against a character. If all viewers hate a character that is supposed to be likeable, they're messing up.

Normally I would agree with this but in the case of this show I get the distinct feeling that a lot of complaints are stemming from initial disappointment. Whatever it was that people were expecting from the show initially, it didn't fulfill those expectations and as a result, people are being overly critical about everything. Some issues are legitimate (Ward and May have relatively little development compared to the rest of the cast) while others are being blown way out of proportion (Skye being "annoying" or Fitzsimmons using to much techno/science babble).
 

Veelk

Banned
Yeah, though it hits me like slapstick because of how wildly out of place most of it feels.

--Team discovers a dead body floating by mysterious means.

--We can't let the emotional weight of this moment settle. Quick! Lets throw in a Fitz/Simmons gag about how they're super-nerds who talk over each other!

Why would you care about random character #142? He's a nobody and no one he cares about (like his children) are at the scene. Why waste emotional gravitas on him?

The important one is the people we can see at the moment, like the one Coulson stays with, and Simmons, when she is dying.

Besides, that more black comedy than just about them being nerds. And black comedy requires a serious situation to make inappropriate light of, like the death of a father.
 

Patryn

Member
The ratings don't mean much of anything aside from the fact that there are less people watching than did at the beginning.

And for the umpteenth time, we're less than halfway through a 22 episode season for a show that has a MAJOR push from the studio. The show's still doing well competitively for the time slot. It's still too early to start claiming it's close to cancellation.

I agree that it's highly unlikely at this point that it'll be cancelled. Except for the fact that every single episode has had a drop from the previous episode. If it doesn't find its floor soon... say by March or so, then cancellation becomes a real possibility.
 

hamchan

Member
I don't think this show is very well written. It's not well received by critics and the ratings are falling. But I keep watching because of the potential of this show to be better. With a 22 episode season they certainly have enough chances in the future to change the direction of the show.
 
Yeah, though it hits me like slapstick because of how wildly out of place most of it feels.

--Team discovers a dead body floating by mysterious means.

--We can't let the emotional weight of this moment settle. Quick! Lets throw in a Fitz/Simmons gag about how they're super-nerds who talk over each other!

So you haven't seen Buffy, Angel, or Firefly then...?

More seriously, this is the way that whole Universe is. It's a staple of Iron Man and Avengers as well. Sarcastic inappropriate humor during a heavy moment. It's not supposed to be a dark or heavy show. At all. If that's what you want, then you should watch Arrow and pass on this.
 

royalan

Member
So you haven't seen Buffy, Angel, or Firefly then...?

More seriously, this is the way that whole Universe is. It's a staple of Iron Man and Avengers as well. Sarcastic inappropriate humor during a heavy moment. It's not supposed to be a dark or heavy show. At all. If that's what you want, then you should watch Arrow and pass on this.

I watched all three
but only completely liked Buffy
. Strangely enough, Buffy got incredibly dark in some of its later seasons.

Also, I can appreciate a gag to lighten a heavy scene .It's a staple of good storytelling. But the tone of this kind of gag tends to be difficult to nail, and my problem is AoS doesn't nail it nearly as often as they go for it.
 
I watched all three
but only completely liked Buffy
. Strangely enough, Buffy got incredibly dark in some of its later seasons.

Also, I can appreciate a gag to lighten a heavy scene .It's a staple of good storytelling. But the tone of this kind of gag tends to be difficult to nail, and my problem is AoS doesn't nail it nearly as often as they go for it.

I agree that sometimes the jokes miss but from what I can, that's usually the actors just not being able to deliver them effectively. For example Fitzsimmons doing their Ward impressions worked. Ward mocking those impressions later in the episode completely whiffed. Because the actor playing Ward just isn't good at that kind of material. The writing wasn't the problem.

Hopefully the actors can find a better groove though and deliver a bit better in areas of weakness. Fitzsimmons already are much better and Skye does well too. May and Ward are the biggest offenders on this front.
 

Joni

Member
Normally I would agree with this but in the case of this show I get the distinct feeling that a lot of complaints are stemming from initial disappointment. Whatever it was that people were expecting from the show initially, it didn't fulfill those expectations and as a result, people are being overly critical about everything. Some issues are legitimate (Ward and May have relatively little development compared to the rest of the cast) while others are being blown way out of proportion (Skye being "annoying" or Fitzsimmons using to much techno/science babble).
Yes, but even then: compare it to the British Primeval. After six episodes they had set up six likeable main characters, an interesting overarching plot with a lot of week by week stuff. They had drama, they had diverse environments, they had good comedy. AoS isn't delivering anything after more episodes. And yes, it might be disappointment. AoS is no Firefly, no Spartacus (Jed and Maurissa's previous show), no Dollhouse. Again: likeable characters, actors and writing make the difference. When I look at the cast I see the goofball from The New Adventures of Old Christine and the Marvel movies that isn't lead material; the absolutely worst character from ER and four kinda pretty people that dress alike.

Maybe, but failure on delivering authorial intent also does not necessarily make the writing bad. It's just not what the writer intended.
There are reasons why the intent isn't being delivered. In this case: bad acting, bad actors and bad writing have all been reasons depending on the situation. They have moments of good writing being messed up by crappy acting, and scenes with good acting being ruined because the writing isn't that good.
 

Veelk

Banned
There are reasons why the intent isn't being delivered. In this case: bad acting, bad actors and bad writing have all been reasons depending on the situation. They have moments of good writing being messed up by crappy acting, and scenes with good acting being ruined because the writing isn't that good.

Disagree, but my point is that even if it is delivered, that doesn't mean it'd be good. And there are cases where authorial intent being misdelivered ended in a better product than it would if it was good. Authorial intent is useless to me except as side trivia.
 
Yes, but even then: compare it to the British Primeval. After six episodes they had set up six likeable main characters, an interesting overarching plot with a lot of week by week stuff. They had drama, they had diverse environments, they had good comedy. AoS isn't delivering anything after more episodes. And yes, it might be disappointment. AoS is no Firefly, no Spartacus (Jed and Maurissa's previous show), no Dollhouse. Again: likeable characters, actors and writing make the difference. When I look at the cast I see the goofball from The New Adventures of Old Christine and the Marvel movies that isn't lead material; the absolutely worst character from ER and four kinda pretty people that dress alike.

I've never seen Primeval, so the comparison isn't one that I can evaluate or understand. I wonder though, if at this point comparisons are being offered simply because they're comparing SHIELD to shows for no reason other than X show has received more praise or is more liked by whomever brings up the comparison.

I also find it interesting that you brought up Dollhouse as a positive. Now, I personally enjoyed Dollhouse but it's another Whedon show that was similarly critiqued negatively. It was criticized for being too slow to advance the over arching serial plot. Criticized for bad acting. Criticized for bad writing. It also floundered in the ratings. So the fact that you've brought up Dollhouse proves one of the points that Veelk is trying to make. That a lot of the reasons for the critcisms being brought up are personal taste issues rather than objective issues with the show itself.
 

Joni

Member
I also find it interesting that you brought up Dollhouse as a positive. Now, I personally enjoyed Dollhouse but it's another Whedon show that was similarly critiqued negatively. It was criticized for being too slow to advance the over arching serial plot. Criticized for bad acting. Criticized for bad writing. It also floundered in the ratings. So the fact that you've brought up Dollhouse proves one of the points that Veelk is trying to make. That a lot of the reasons for the critcisms being brought up are personal taste issues rather than objective issues with the show itself.
Or that even Whedon's weakest show still was better than AoS. ;)
 
Welcome to the new age of reviews. Where people can't separate something being good but not suited to there tastes.

That is what half the people say in here. The show is fine. Slow moving, yeah, not the best cinematography, sure but all the other complaints about the show come down to not what I wanted or expected.
 

Slayven

Member
Welcome to the new age of reviews. Where people can't separate something being good but not suited to there tastes.

That is what half the people say in here. The show is fine. Slow moving, yeah, not the best cinematography, sure but all the other complaints about the show come down to not what I wanted or expected.
More people talkinga bout it dying and how terrible it is, but seem to keep watching it. Man nerds.....

Oh lord, people are now saying Walking Dead's dialogue is better than this? HA

That is crazy.
 

ReiGun

Member
I had absolutely no expectations coming into this show beyond "fun show about SHIELD being SHIELD." I wasn't thinking it was gonna be like the movies or of the quality of [insert whatever show you like to use to imply others are TV snobs]. My dislike of this program comes from its flat charaters, hokey dialouge, and inability to truly raise any stakes beyond a few moments, as opposed to any over hyping on my part.

I admit it is improving, but if it doesn't really pick up in the next couple episodes, I'm out.
 
I really really want to like this show. It's basically the only thing that I actually watch on tv, since usually I'm just browsing Netflix or something. The latest episodes have been steadily improving and I'm still holding out hope that it can turn into something amazing. Even the worst episodes are good enough that I can sit through them. And the boring cast is really starting to come into its own an interest me. Fitz was great in the last episode. I hope they all have a couple episodes to show off that they're actually good at shit like Fitz just got. They could have done the cliche "scientist nerd is bad at being an agent because he's so klutzy and smart" so it was nice to see them subvert that and show us that he can handle himself in the field. It makes a lot more sense to have him in SHIELD now. So overall, the show has gotten better, and I don't plan on quitting any time soon.

However, I could not stand watching The Walking Dead. I got through two seasons and quit. That shit is terrible. I cannot for the life of me figure out why it is so loved.
 
Main characters without a personality that still had better personality. Echo was interesting without the hints about her mysterious past for instance.

Now you're just exaggerating. Echo with no past literally has no personality. Everyone on SHIELD has a personality except May. Even Ward has one, though it's shitty.
 

Toa TAK

Banned
Man, according to GAF, it seems I'm watching the worst TV out there. Agents of SHIELD and The Walking Dead.

I needed something to pull me back down after Breaking Bad!
 

Emwitus

Member
Nope nope nope nope nope.

Walking dead is hands down the worst show I'm watching right now. It doesn't get anything right. Every character is a moron extraordinaire and the acting is often overwrought. The dialogue is pretty ordinary. In contrast, AoS's isn't realistic, but it does fit the universe its in. Again, this universe is slightly cartoonish and characters ought to be unrealistically witty and goofy. It makes me consistently laugh at the jokes and, though this is just my subjective experience, when they tried to do a dramatic scene, it doesn't make me laugh like Rick does every time he tries to be teary. You can't have emotional resonance when every bit of the foundation is built so unbelievably that you can't get get immersed in the setting because your laughing at how terrible everything is.

Walking dead suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks in ever damn way except maybe gore.


It's amazing to see this posted in a shield thread.
 
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