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[RJMacready73]

Unfortunately science cannot disprove God, Allah, Zeus or any other diety people wish to worship. This is because all religion is based on faith.



As a history scholar, I can say that is absolutely not true.

Of course science can disprove it, with evolutionary science we can easily see how/why "Gods" were invented in the first place and trace the origins right back throughout human history, not to mention physical science completely disproves it if we go by the written books by the so called scammers Prophets..

And as a history scholar you 100% sure that humans weren't killing each other because of this or that made of Deity before the written word???

 

[RJMacready73]

What an incredibly boring and sad world it would be if we didn't follow our convictions regardless of how baffling they might be to some

you're just ragin you still can't burn witches...

 

[Branded]

Ah yes. People who have definitely been atheists for the majority of their life always spell atheist wrong

Hah! I blame it on English being my second language.

fixed.

 

[IDKFA]

Of course science can disprove it, with evolutionary science we can easily see how/why "Gods" were invented in the first place and trace the origins right back throughout human history, not to mention physical science completely disproves it if we go by the written books by the so called scammers Prophets..

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Technically I'm Catholic, but I'm not a believer. However, I've not read anything that can disprove a higher power as that belief is based on faith.

And as a history scholar you 100% sure that humans weren't killing each other because of this or that made of Deity before the written word???

Slightly moving the goal posts here. Now, of course some wars and conflicts were caused by religion, however it's not the biggest cause of war, conflict, conquest or human suffering in history. There is also evidence of humans killing each other before the written word. Well before.

I don't want to derail this thread further, so if you wish to debate this then please do so via private message. Thanks.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Im not going to argue about the existence of god or the teachings of religion because its not my place to do so as I'm not really a big believer at this point.

But one could argue (in his faith) that God has granted him with a gift of talent for football and that he's squandering away said gift.

 

[ShirAhava]

Good on him for giving up something fun but ultimately completely worthless for something he actually believes in.

Far too many people allow themselves to be ruled by the ignorant perceptions of others and aren't living the life they truly want to live

 

[RJMacready73]

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Technically I'm Catholic, but I'm not a believer. However, I've not read anything that can disprove a higher power as that belief is based on faith.



Slightly moving the goal posts here. Now, of course some wars and conflicts were caused by religion, however it's not the biggest cause of war, conflict, conquest or human suffering in history. There is also evidence of humans killing each other before the written word. Well before.

I don't want to derail this thread further, so if you wish to debate this then please do so via private message. Thanks.

We're all good chap

 

[Tams]

Good on him for giving up something fun but ultimately completely worthless for something he actually believes in.

Far too many people allow themselves to be ruled by the ignorant perceptions of others and aren't living the life they truly want to live

But what if what he believes in is worthless mumbo jumbo?

If God really does exist, do you really think he (?) cares what day you worship him most on?!

Surely, if you are truly devout, shouldn't every day be most important to worship him?

 

[ShirAhava]

But what if what he believes in is worthless mumbo jumbo?

If God really does exist, do you really think he (?) cares what day you worship him most on?!

Surely, if you are truly devout, shouldn't every day be most important to worship him?

Its funny....We can agree to be at school or work at a certain time submitting to the various societal contracts between the people, our government ect. without much fuss But the idea of intelligent design, of a maker and an orderly existence with laws, statues and commandments given to man to obey and follow and a million questions, doubts and whys which is fine just funny to me....According to many scriptural texts he cares and cares very deeply just as a father cares about his sons and wants whats best for them. A day for rest, a shabbath and that day being the 7th day and the meaning behind it can be found very easily just as Silvan Wallner did. If you do not see the importance of it or care to look into why others do.....so be it.

 

[Kraz]

They shoulda asked him if he thinks Jesus is imminently returning. See if he's gone full death cult.

 

[Malak]

OK. So maybe traditionally Saturday was considered the day of rest, but I'm pretty sure the bible doesn't mention the word "Saturday" which is in reference to Saturn is it not? The day is arbitrarily chosen by some person, not dictated by god. It all depends on what you consider the first day if the week. I'm pretty sure god wouldn't go by the Gregorian calendar or care which day you rest.

Despite the fact that the name Saturday is not in fact the biblical name, but rather shabbat, the seventh day remains the same day forever. Jesus did not stop being the Messiah, because he was called Christ, which was the Greek word for messiah. This is very clear in Genesis, that after God created the world in 6 days, on the Seventh He rested, blessed and sanctified that day:

Gen 2:1-3: "And the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it;"

Even in Exodus there is a reference to remember the Seventh day that was established at creation:

Exo 20:8-11: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work , thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherever Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

This already existed before any human calendar, in addition to not coming from an arbitrary human decision but from the will of God. And no one has the authority to change that.

I still think the Saturday idea is stupid AF, but I truly appreciate the effort you put into explaining it to us heathens.

Thus says the Lord God:

Prov 3:5: "Trust in Jehovah with all thy heart, And lean not upon thine own understanding:"

Isa 55:6-9: "Seek ye Jehovah while he may be found; call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto Jehovah, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Acts 17:30-31: "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

 

[Tams]

Its funny....We can agree to be at school or work at a certain time submitting to the various societal contracts between the people, our government ect. without much fuss But the idea of intelligent design, of a maker and an orderly existence with laws, statues and commandments given to man to obey and follow and a million questions, doubts and whys which is fine just funny to me....According to many scriptural texts he cares and cares very deeply just as a father cares about his sons and wants whats best for them. A day for rest, a shabbath and that day being the 7th day and the meaning behind it can be found very easily just as Silvan Wallner did. If you do not see the importance of it or care to look into why others do.....so be it.

He cares so much that the likes of a cancer exists.

 

[Kraz]

Its funny....We can agree to be at school or work at a certain time submitting to the various societal contracts between the people, our government ect. without much fuss But the idea of intelligent design, of a maker and an orderly existence with laws, statues and commandments given to man to obey and follow and a million questions, doubts and whys which is fine just funny to me....According to many scriptural texts he cares and cares very deeply just as a father cares about his sons and wants whats best for them. A day for rest, a shabbath and that day being the 7th day and the meaning behind it can be found very easily just as Silvan Wallner did. If you do not see the importance of it or care to look into why others do.....so be it.

Using the Bible to explain reality and inform behavior is like using a comic book fiction to explain the universe and insisting it's true. Really bad shape to think it's on an equal footing as that of natural science as a reflection of reality.

The universe in the Bible is like this

.

Copernicus and what happened to Galileo shows how difficult it can be to undo unquestioningly belief in falsehoods and the effect on civilizations.

 

[FunkMiller]

Its funny....We can agree to be at school or work at a certain time submitting to the various societal contracts between the people, our government ect. without much fuss But the idea of intelligent design, of a maker and an orderly existence with laws, statues and commandments given to man to obey and follow and a million questions, doubts and whys which is fine just funny to me....According to many scriptural texts he cares and cares very deeply just as a father cares about his sons and wants whats best for them. A day for rest, a shabbath and that day being the 7th day and the meaning behind it can be found very easily just as Silvan Wallner did. If you do not see the importance of it or care to look into why others do.....so be it.

I - or anyone else - could spend many paragraphs trying to convince you that intelligent design is not real, and that the scientific realities of evolution, the construction of the universe, and the functions of the natural world are all very well evidenced, across multiple independent expert sources, and have been for many, many years.

...and you'd ignore all of it.

Because one thing that is also very well evidenced across multiple independent expert sources is the human capacity for self delusion.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

Despite the fact that the name Saturday is not in fact the biblical name, but rather shabbat, the seventh day remains the same day forever. Jesus did not stop being the Messiah, because he was called Christ, which was the Greek word for messiah. This is very clear in Genesis, that after God created the world in 6 days, on the Seventh He rested, blessed and sanctified that day:


Even in Exodus there is a reference to remember the Seventh day that was established at creation:


This already existed before any human calendar, in addition to not coming from an arbitrary human decision but from the will of God. And no one has the authority to change that.


Thus says the Lord God:

Yep, the seventh day, exactly, that's what the book actually says. Could be our current Monday for all we know, there's just no way to know for sure. You seem really sure it's Saturday though, what's your source that our current Saturday matches up with god's seventh day established at the beginning of time?

 

[mclaren777]

To a much smaller extent, I know how he feels.

I would love to race in our local LO206 league, but the races are all on Sunday mornings and I'm not willing to forfeit church for racing.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Thus says the Lord God:

 

[Cyberpunkd]

To a much smaller extent, I know how he feels.

I would love to race in our local LO206 league, but the races are all on Sunday mornings and I'm not willing to forfeit church for racing.

Stop lying, you simply liked sleeping in.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

Stop lying, you simply liked sleeping in.

Generally church is in the morning. I was gonna make a snarky remark about how god would be so impressed that they ignored their passions and let that potential wither on the vine, but I know church is about community for a lot of folks, so I can see why that would be hard to give up.

 

[Malak]

I've been an atheist for the majority of my life but am glad I've found God as well.

Could you tell us about your conversion? I'm sure your testimony would be very useful to people here.

But one could argue (in his faith) that God has granted him with a gift of talent for football and that he's squandering away said gift.

Not what kind of deity you believe in, but the God of the Bible does not give us capabilities to be used selfishly and for self-satisfaction or self-destruction as in some cases. In all created things it is a fixed principle that each exists to benefit others. The bird gathers materials to build its nest, but it does so to protect its young. Flowers shed their perfume and reveal their beauty to bring joy to the world. The sun in the heavens spreads its light to warm and cheer the Earth. [...] Thus, we must also live. Selfishness, the desire to live for oneself, is contrary to God's purpose.

He cares so much that the likes of a cancer exists.

Their worldview is simplistic and superficial, even if God cured all the diseases in the world, they would arise again because the problem with all this is sin. But if people don't even want to recognize sin, which causes illnesses and other bad things, giving them a cure would just reward an unruly lifestyle without teaching them how to deal with the consequences of their bad choices." If, after so much light on simple remedies, people ignore what God has provided in air, water and other natural resources, they cannot expect miraculous healing."

The universe in the Bible is like this

I don't know how you took this image but it is wrong in several ways, although everything in Genesis is in fact a literal account, not everything was written, God did not aim to describe in detail how creation was but rather to provide an overview of how things were done. Because if God were to detail everything, he would need at least a library and not a book. See what John says:

John 20:30-31; 21:25: "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. … And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written Amen. "

Sheol in Hebrew is a grave, a cemetery, it is not a hole under the ground, this is just one of the many errors in this image. In fact, one of the reasons God spoke about creation was to show that God was above all the stars, things that pagans worshiped and thought were divinities in themselves.

Yep, the seventh day, exactly, that's what the book actually says. Could be our current Monday for all we know, there's just no way to know for sure. You seem really sure it's Saturday though, what's your source that our current Saturday matches up with god's seventh day established at the beginning of time?

Faith, why do you go to a store carrying a piece of plastic, a credit card, with the intention of using it to purchase products? Because you yourself do not understand how the entire monetary and banking system works in detail, you know from your own experience, and that of others, that when using it it will work as expected. Jesus, who is God, kept the Sabbath just as his people did, so he was validating that this was right and it was wrong to practice it. In fact, in the apocalypse, in the time of the end, it talks about a group of people who will be keeping the commandments, the 10, and Saturday is one of them, showing that yes, the day has remained the same forever:

Rev 14:12: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

He himself, in his omniscience, made several predictions about the end of the world. And none of it was about people being deceived about the Sabbath, on the contrary he spoke of people who would have had the opportunity to know the truth but chose to remain in error:

John 3:19-21: "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

John 1:10-13: "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Would this be the case for you or others here? Only you can answer, not for me, but for God.

 

[Kraz]

I don't know how you took this image but it is wrong in several ways, although everything in Genesis is in fact a literal account, not everything was written, God did not aim to describe in detail how creation was but rather to provide an overview of how things were done. Because if God were to detail everything, he would need at least a library and not a book. See what John says:

Humans fabricated the book's contents based on their understanding of the universe at the time. It makes no mention of evolution because their wasn't an understanding of it. Creatures and the world appeared fully formed from a hypothesized Ideal Realm. World being only a few thousand years old, because that was the limit of their understanding.

Trying to argue within Biblical fiction, by only referring to it, is like children that use their cartoon characters that teach them basics about the world "But Captain America said this and in my comic they all look up to him" that's what referring to the Bible sounds like.

 

[FunkMiller]

Could you tell us about your conversion? I'm sure your testimony would be very useful to people here.

How immensely patronising Of course, the irony here being that the people in this thread who need to listen to what others are saying, are the religiously indoctrinated types like you, with your heads gleefully stuck in the sand of your own wilful ignorance.

…including the ones who lie about being atheists ‘finding the lord’.

 

[Hookshot]

I get why some people need organized religion but I don't get why they choose to follow the newer ones. If people were getting along just fine before your gods showed up, then what's the point of them?

 

[FunkMiller]

I get why some people need organized religion but I don't get why they choose to follow the newer ones. If people were getting along just fine before your gods showed up, then what's the point of them?

They provide easy explanations for the unknowns of our world, making it less scary and less difficult. They provide solace and comfort to those afraid of death (their own or others). They provide a sense of strong community for those that follow them.

None of these reasons make any religion any more believable or based in any evidence.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

Faith, why do you go to a store carrying a piece of plastic, a credit card, with the intention of using it to purchase products? Because you yourself do not understand how the entire monetary and banking system works in detail, you know from your own experience, and that of others, that when using it it will work as expected. Jesus, who is God, kept the Sabbath just as his people did, so he was validating that this was right and it was wrong to practice it. In fact, in the apocalypse, in the time of the end, it talks about a group of people who will be keeping the commandments, the 10, and Saturday is one of them, showing that yes, the day has remained the same forever:

Ok, so, faith. That's why you're sure it's Saturday. You must be aware there's a large portion of believers who have equal faith that Sunday is the sabbath. There's nothing that can tell us who is right, just the feeling that both groups have that their day is the right one.

Faith was my answer too when I was questioned on why I held my belief in god despite the lack of evidence. Faith is constantly upheld and reenforced in church as a virtuous trait for believers. Faith is trusting in something without any evidence. In the world we live in, faith can steer you really wrong. If we're concerned with the truth, faith doesn't seem to be the best way to find it.

In our example here we have 2 groups of people who are both sure their day is the true sabbath, and they both have equal faith, but they can't both be right. In at least one case their faith has led them astray. Is it possible you're wrong?

 

[Trogdor1123]

How immensely patronising Of course, the irony here being that the people in this thread who need to listen to what others are saying, are the religiously indoctrinated types like you, with your heads gleefully stuck in the sand of your own wilful ignorance.

…including the ones who lie about being atheists ‘finding the lord’.

Dude you gotta relax.

He never once said that and you got to stop putting words in peoples mouths.

Insulting people for their own deeply held beliefs doesn’t make you better and certainly doesn’t win people over to you.

You don’t believe in God, that’s your call, but ease up on those of us who do. I don’t see any one attacking you, just one way. A militant atheist isn’t a good look and your better person than that imo.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

Fucking your career for a non-existent sky fairy.

Mock if you want. But I, a total agnostic am having weird feelings that more might be a foot here than any of us can comprehend

You just have to open your eyes.

 

[Sushi_Combo]

Religion is a cancer to society.

 

[FunkMiller]

Mock if you want. But I, a total agnostic am having weird feelings that more might be a foot here than any of us can comprehend

You just have to open your eyes.

I opened my eyes a long time ago. That's kind of the point

 

[FunkMiller]

Dude you gotta relax.

He never once said that and you got to stop putting words in peoples mouths.

Insulting people for their own deeply held beliefs doesn’t make you better and certainly doesn’t win people over to you.

You don’t believe in God, that’s your call, but ease up on those of us who do. I don’t see any one attacking you, just one way. A militant atheist isn’t a good look and your better person than that imo.

Proselytizing where it's not wanted gets my back up, what can I say.

 

[midnightAI]

Humans fabricated the book's contents based on their understanding of the universe at the time. It makes no mention of evolution because their wasn't an understanding of it. Creatures and the world appeared fully formed from a hypothesized Ideal Realm. World being only a few thousand years old, because that was the limit of their understanding.

Trying to argue within Biblical fiction, by only referring to it, is like children that use their cartoon characters that teach them basics about the world "But Captain America said this and in my comic they all look up to him" that's what referring to the Bible sounds like.

Basically, God exists because the Bible says so

 

[Malak]

In our example here we have 2 groups of people who are both sure their day is the true sabbath, and they both have equal faith, but they can't both be right. In at least one case their faith has led them astray. Is it possible you're wrong?

This is not true, these people have the idea that Sunday is a day to go to church and not that it is the biblical Saturday. Because there is no basis for it. Many of them just accepted this because that was what their companions did, and not because it came from God's order and instructions. The Seventh day has basis and authority in the word of God, Sunday does not. The Sabbath has instructions on how to observe it correctly, Sunday does not. It is associated with several events in the Bible such as the creation and redemption of the people being made and declared by God himself, not Sunday. Jesus kept this day and taught him the right way to observe it, not Sunday. God wrote it on stone tablets with his finger, not Sunday.

I don't know which God you believe in, but the genuine Christian is based on the God of the word and Jesus said it is the truth:

John 17:17: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
Ps 119:9,11: "Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. … Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."

Because there is no Christian, no Christianity without the Bible because Jesus as God is taught and testified only in It. Do you know how Jesus refuted all of Satan's deceptions and temptations?, quoting only the Word:

Mat 4:3-4: "And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."

That's why I quote the word so much, because She is the truth, She has the power to instruct, convert, rebuke, advise, discipline, bless, welcome, reveal the desires of the heart but human opinion does not have that power. Do you and others here think that the Bible is the most produced and read book in the world? No, she actually has the power of God. You can give any book in the world to prisoners, but none will have the same power over them as the Bible. All this and many more is just testimony to the fact that it is the truth.

Using the appeal to the majority is a bad argument, because it was the majority of Jews who rejected Jesus, it was a majority who rejected Noah's preaching. And a large majority will be lost:

Mat 7:13-14: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadseth unto life, and few there be that find it."

I have the Bible, the Word of God to affirm the truth, who do you have? Roma? Constantine? People who perform certain rites without questioning their origin? None of this or anything you want has more authority than the sacred scriptures, which, as Jesus said, are the truth. But once I tell you, based on what Jesus said, people would not be lost because they did not know the truth, but rather because they chose to reject it, because their works were evil. Which side are you on?

Biblically, faith is based on an experience and relationship with God, whether through the most varied forms. It is not something blind and irrational. In the Bible, and today, people know why they are following Jesus it is based on something, it is not blind trust. You said that faith can take a person to a bad place, but God says otherwise:

Heb 11:6: "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

The spirit of the antichrist is to put himself in God's place, that's what you are doing and that is what the Roman power in the middle ages did by changing the day of worship established by God.

I opened my eyes a long time ago.

Tell us your story, what you were and did and what made you change your mind. Why are you angry with God?

 

[FunkMiller]

Tell us your story, what you were and did and what made you change your mind. Why are you angry with God?

Impossible to be angry with something that doesn't exist, my friend. You might as well ask me why I'm angry at Sauron for what he did to the Gondorians.

But if you really want to start in on these kinds of questions, do tell me... why is your god any more real than the god that billions of Hindus or Buddhists believe in?

 

[midnightAI]

Impossible to be angry with something that doesn't exist, my friend. You might as well ask me why I'm angry at Sauron for what he did to the Gondorians.

But if you really want to start in on these kinds of questions, do tell me... why is your god any more real than the god that billions of Hindus or Buddhists believe in?

Or the Vikings, Romans and Greeks, they have the coolest gods

 

[IntentionalPun]

Would this effectively end his career? Seems like someone would still pay him to play football the rest of the week, but it would suck for that team considering all the Saturday games.

 

[Branded]

How immensely patronising Of course, the irony here being that the people in this thread who need to listen to what others are saying, are the religiously indoctrinated types like you, with your heads gleefully stuck in the sand of your own wilful ignorance.

…including the ones who lie about being atheists ‘finding the lord’.

What would I have to gain about lying about that sort of thing? Are you really that presumptuous (dare I say, ignorant) to assume that people can find God? Especially after a life time of ignoring Him?

Now this thread is already going off the rails but so I doubt much fruitful discussion remains but I do hope you've at least questioned your own atheism. Not that I am suggesting you divert from it but to at least come to terms the kind of atheism you adhere to. There's a big difference in the philosophies of Nietzsche and Hegel compared to the new-age views of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc. I once belong to the latter and I later found how childish I was in my thinking (and how theirs was incredibly short sighted and nihilistic).

To answer Malak , in short: I actually came to faith with my mind first and my heart second. And I'm still on that journey. Throughout my life I've always wrestled with the bigger questions in life but now, as I've grown older (and hopefully wiser), I've come to realize that a universe without a creator is unreasonable at best. Everything from micro or macro evolution to the laws of reason and logic. Or our intrinsic moral behavior. I can no longer omit God from those equations.

Even things like the big bang theory, which states that something came from nothing, requires a far bigger leap of faith compared to how our origin is explained in the Bible. Now I could go on and on of course but these are just some of the things that put me on my journey to find God.

 

[FunkMiller]

What would I have to gain about lying about that sort of thing? Are you really that presumptuous (dare I say, ignorant) to assume that people can find God? Especially after a life time of ignoring Him?

What could you possibly have to gain as a religious person by trying to convince other people to become religious?

Oh, and atheism? All it is is the non belief in a god or gods. Nothing else. There's is no 'kind of' atheism.

 

[Branded]

What could you possibly have to gain as a religious person by trying to convince other people to become religious?

Do you honestly think I'm evangelizing on a videogame message board? I've actually never heard of this before where someone can't accept the fact that a person who was once a disbeliever came to Jesus. I don't even know where to begin.

Look I get it, I was once like you. Perhaps even worse lol. Always challenging everyone around me, arguing for the sake of arguing. Regurgitating lines from the "Amazing Atheist". Watching interviews and debates with Dawkins and Hitchens vs other religious people. Listening to Thy Art is Murder and wearing merch that said "Smoke Meth & Hail Satan". Dyeing my hair black, piercings, etc the works. I was very antagonistic and rebellious. And while, in some ways I still am, I've long let that lifestyle behind.

Not really sure how to proceed here as I'm dealing with someone who not only denounces faith but also can't accept people coming to it? Even in my days of atheism I could at least see why people would find solace in religion and therefore flock to it. Kind of a bizarre position you've taken there.

Oh, and atheism? All it is is the non belief in a god or gods. Nothing else. There's is no 'kind of' atheism.

And again I do not wish to convert or persuade you to my side but I do hope you examine your own beliefs, if only to better understand them, as there very much is a 'kind of' atheism (I edited my previous post and am referring to what I said in there).

Even agnosticism comes in at least three kinds:
Person A: I don't know but I wish I did
Person B: I don't know, I don't care
Person C: I don't know, you don't know, nobody can know - This is a surreptitious claim to knowledge and this person is closest to being an atheist (which itself has its own distinctions. Nietszche for example lamented the "death of God"; New age atheism celebrates it, which in turn comes with its own pitfalls).

 

[FunkMiller]

Do you honestly think I'm evangelizing on a videogame message board? I've actually never heard of this before where someone can't accept the fact that a person who was a disbeliever came to Jesus. I don't even know where to begin.

Look I get it, I was once like you. Perhaps even worse lol. Always challenging everyone around me, arguing for the sake of arguing. Regurgitating lines from the "Amazing Atheist". Watching interviews and debates with Dawkins and Hitchens vs other religious people. Listening to Thy Art is Murder and wearing merch that said "Smoke Meth & Hail Satan". Dyeing my hair black, piercings, etc the works. I was very antagonistic and rebellious. And while, in some ways I still am, I've long let that lifestyle behind.

Not really sure how to proceed here as I'm dealing with someone who not only denounces faith but also can't accept people coming to it? Even in my days of atheism I could at least see why people would find solace in religion and therefore flock to it. Kind of bizarre position you've taken there.

And again I do not wish to convert or persuade you to my side but I do hope you examine your own beliefs as there very much is a 'kind of' atheism. If only to better understand them (I edited my previous post and am referring to what I said in there).

See now, you're (well though out) efforts to persuade me that you were once a definite atheist are more than a little undermined by the fact you're quoting at me the things religious people think atheists believe, rather than what we actually think.

You're not the first religious person to say 'Ooh... I used to be just like you, believing the things that Dawkins and Hitchens say, and being all moody and dark and rebellious'. If you equate atheism with rebellion, then I surmise you must come from a religious background/family?

The major error religious folks always make in these kinds of discussions is thinking that atheists are in any way similar to one another. You want to think we flock together under a banner of 'belief' the same way you do. This is not true. And this fact is blatantly obvious to anyone who is an actual atheist.

 

[Branded]

See now, you're (well though out) efforts to persuade me that you were once a definite atheist are more than a little undermined by the fact you're quoting at me the things religious people think atheists believe, rather than what we actually think.

You're not the first religious person to say 'Ooh... I used to be just like you, believing the things that Dawkins and Hitchens say, and being all moody and dark and rebellious'.

The major error religious folks always make in these kinds of discussions is thinking that atheists are in any way similar to one another. You want to think we flock together under a banner of 'belief' the same way you do. This is not true. And this fact is blatantly obvious to anyone who is an actual atheist.

Hmm this is getting nowhere. Not sure what kind of proof would suffice but I do find it amusing that you have such a hard time coming to grips with the fact that someone who was once on the opposite end has converted to Christianity. And you're kind of entering bad faith territory here (if you pardon the pun) by saying I'm lying to you about my own life.

This is literally from my last.fm lol, tons of blasphemous bands in there that I no longer listen to. Big whoop really. There's many reasons people stop or start doing things throughout life. Mine happened to be a conversion to Christianity.

Maybe I need to let you speak to my friends and family as well?

 

[FunkMiller]

Hmm this is getting nowhere. Not sure what kind of proof would suffice but I do find it amusing that you have such a hard time coming to grips with the fact that someone who was once on the opposite end has converted to Christianity. And you're kind of entering bad faith territory here (if you pardon the pun) by saying I'm lying to you about my own life.

This is literally from my last.fm lol

Maybe I need to let you speak to my friends and family as well?

Ah yes, nothing says 'I was definitely an atheist' like a list of metal music.

I don't think you're allowed to be an atheist unless you like metal. It says it in the book they give us at the orientation meeting, where we also eat a baby, learn how to apply black lipstick and worship at a picture of Richard Dawkins riding a T-Rex.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Proselytizing where it's not wanted gets my back up, what can I say.

You can say what ever you want of course and we would welcome it but do it in a nice way. People of faith have to willing to defend their faith. It’s good for people to do that and I think it is welcomed to have a proper discussion on faith. Faith, like anything else, should be challenged as it is strong for it and better. I know I enjoy those discussions and I think it’s important for those of faith to talk about it with those that don’t have it. But I will say this, it is literally a thread about a person who is making a sacrifice for faith. You had to expect a little bit of it in this thread , yes? Also, no single person speaks for the entire forum (except the boss man of course!).

I’m not saying you shouldn’t question, or even deny, but come with an open heart to discuss it respectfully or it makes you exactly the same as one of the zealots who refuse to critically think about their own view points.

Regardless, I think you are a good dude and i think you raise good points that can be addressed by those of faith. Maybe not to your satisfaction, but that’s ok and why we discuss stuff.

 

[Branded]

Ah yes, nothing says 'I was definitely an atheist' like a list of metal music.

I don't think you're allowed to be an atheist unless you like metal. It says it in the book they give us at the orientation meeting, where we also eat a baby, learn how to apply black lipstick and worship at a picture of Richard Dawkins riding a T-Rex.

Are you just trolling at this point? All you're doing now is deflecting anything I put forward without actually engaging with it. The fact remains that I was once without belief in a higher power but now I've changed my ways. I'm sorry that this is so hard to grasp for you.

By the tone of your previous post I get the impression that you don't actually seek out like minded people (like the ones I mentioned) to examine or strengthen your own beliefs. I could be wrong of course but if you don't then it seems you have a long road ahead of you (and I'm unsure what you even have to add to the discussion at this point).

 

[Trogdor1123]

Are you just trolling at this point? All you're doing now is deflecting anything I put forward without actually engaging with it. The fact remains that I was once without belief in a higher power but now I've changed my ways. I'm sorry that this is so hard to grasp for you.

By the tone of your previous post I get the impression that you don't actually seek out like minded people (like the ones I mentioned) to examine or strengthen your own beliefs. I could be wrong of course but if you don't then it seems you have a long road ahead of you (and I'm unsure what you even have to add to the discussion at this point).

I dont think he is. He simply stating his beliefs and that’s ok.

I also think he isn’t looking to use like minded people to strengthen his beliefs, he is looking to challenge ours. I think that’s great. We should be able to respond to his questions. That is healthy and good for our souls and faith. If we can answer a question, we need to know why. Correct me if I am wrong FunkMiller

 

[FunkMiller]

Are you just trolling at this point? All you're doing now is deflecting anything I put forward without actually engaging with it. The fact remains that I was once without belief in a higher power but now I've changed my ways. I'm sorry that this is so hard to grasp for you.

By the tone of your previous post I get the impression that you don't actually seek out like minded people (like the ones I mentioned) to examine or strengthen your own beliefs. I could be wrong of course but if you don't then it seems you have a long road ahead of you (and I'm unsure what you even have to add to the discussion at this point).

Maybe a little trolly?

...look, I think you're probably someone who comes from a religious background, who did the whole rebelling against the parents thing by listening to metal, wearing black, and saying you didn't believe in god. This is not the same as being an atheist. The fact you can only see the concept of atheism through that very small and cliched stereotype is pretty telling, to be honest.

Atheists are not a group. There is nothing that connects us other than our lack of a belief in a god or gods. Yes, some atheists are devotees of people like Dawkins (who I have met and found to be frankly an insufferable cunt) but we are from all sorts of backgrounds, ethnicities and nations. We do not share any beliefs. The whole point of atheism is a lack of belief.

 

[FunkMiller]

I dont think he is. He simply stating his beliefs and that’s ok.

I also think he isn’t looking to use like minded people to strengthen his beliefs, he is looking to challenge ours. I think that’s great. We should be able to respond to his questions. That is healthy and good for our souls and faith. If we can answer a question, we need to know why. Correct me if I am wrong FunkMiller

You are not wrong, my brother in christ.










fuck. outed myself.

 

[Trogdor1123]

You are not wrong, my brother in christ.










fuck. outed myself.

No worries my man! Happy to discuss anything you want at any time. I’m always happy for people to challenge my faith, it helps make it stronger and I think it’s good to discuss with others.

Side note, I came from a split house. My dad doesn’t believe at all and refuses to even discuss it. I find that a bit sad as he is a smart guy but just doesn’t like to challenged on this for some reason, I don’t mean to convert him or “save” him but it’s nice to discuss. My mom is a non practicing catholic but never really spoke to me about faith. My faith came early though, I remember badgering my mom to baptize me when I was 6 or 7 haha. My mom had to learn the proper catholic rights to do it haha.

I’m not a catholic now but it certainly started my faith.

 

[Branded]

Maybe a little trolly?

...look, I think you're probably someone who comes from a religious background, who did the whole rebelling against the parents thing by listening to metal, wearing black, and saying you didn't believe in god. This is not the same as being an atheist. The fact you can only see the concept of atheism through that very small and cliched stereotype is pretty telling, to be honest.

Atheists are not a group. There is nothing that connects us other than our lack of a belief in a god or gods. Yes, some atheists are devotees of people like Dawkins (who I have met and found to be frankly an insufferable cunt) but we are from all sorts of backgrounds, ethnicities and nations. We do not share any beliefs. The whole point of atheism is a lack of belief.

Ok I will humor you. So really what you're saying is that you have no basis to argue your own position because "everyone is different". You omit yourself from the equation because "atheism is special and does not adhere to anything, therefore you (Branded) cannot have been one, even though atheists are all different and come from all walks of life, you (Branded) cannot have been one because you happened to ascribe your views to more reputable thinkers; one of whom I deem an insufferable cunt btw". All very convenient of course, even if it doesn't make sense in the slightest.

So just so I can set the record straight regarding my own life, something you have a very hard time coming to grips with: Our parents sent me and my sisters to Catholic school despite not having any affiliation with any religion themselves. We were baptized at a very young age by the Catholic church, did our communion (sacraments) but we never went to church outside of the mandatory occasions. Ever since I was a young teen I wanted nothing to do with it. My family certainly didn't either so I come from an atheist upbringing (something you no doubt reject as being "a thing" because "muh atheism isn't actually a defined belief you dummy but here I am arguing against theism on a message board"). Anyway, to this day my immediate family still curse and blaspheme every chance they get and they very much have zero interest in any sort of deeper philosophical questions (the uncaring ignorant atheists of my previous example - person B). It's only me and a cousin that attend church. I am 37 now and have come to Christianity since around 2020, having pondered the nature of existence endlessly before that (even had a stint in Buddhism during my twenties) and I'm still on my journey in that regard. I've attended a Baptist church for a while now and am exploring Eastern Orthodoxy. I go to the gym three times a week, my favourite colour is blue and I like cows.

Long story short Christ is king and I think it's amazing that the athlete mentioned in the OP already has such strong convictions.

 

[FunkMiller]

Ok I will humor you. So really what you're saying is that you have no basis to argue your own position because "everyone is different". You omit yourself from the equation because "atheism is special and does not adhere to anything, therefore you (Branded) cannot have been one before even though atheists are all different and come from all walks of life, you (Branded) cannot have been one because you happened to ascribe your views to more reputable thinkers; one of whom I deem an insufferable cunt btw". All very convenient of course, even if it doesn't make sense in the slightest.

So just so I can set the record straight regarding my own life, something you have a very hard time coming to grips with: Our parents sent me and my sisters to Catholic school despite not having any affiliation with any religion themselves. We were baptized at a very young age by the Catholic church, did our communion (sacraments) but we never went to church outside of the mandatory occasions. Ever since I was a young teen I wanted nothing to do with it. My family certainly didn't either so I come from an atheist upbringing (something you no doubt reject as being "a thing" because "muh atheism isn't actually a defined belief you dummy but here I am arguing against theism on a message board". Anyway, to this day my immediate family still curse and blaspheme every chance they get and they very much have zero interest in any sort of deeper philosophical questions (the uncaring ignorant atheists of my previous example - person B). It's only me and a cousin that attend church. I am 37 now and have come to Christianity since around 2020, having pondered the nature of existence endlessly before that (even had a stint in Buddhism during my twenties) and I'm still on my journey in that regard. I've attended a Baptist church for a while now and am exploring Eastern Orthodoxy. I go to the gym three times a week, my favourite colour is blue and I like cows.

Long story short Christ is king and I think it's amazing that the athlete mentioned in the OP already has such strong convictions.

I also like cows. On this, may we finally find common ground.

 

[Tams]

Faith is trusting in something without any evidence. In the world we live in, faith can steer you really wrong.

And this is why there are never ending cases of abuse within religions despite (but also due to) the close-knit communities they form. And why it can go one for decades with often at most only rumours coming out.