120/144Hz Thread of Lightboosting Pixel Perfect Headshots
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SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I really underestimated how much of a difference lightboost would make, but it's comparable to the difference between 60 and 120. I think windowed games are forced to run at the desktop refresh rate because I've noticed the improvements in games normally limited to 60hz/60fps.
mdrejhon
Member
Permanent LightBoost trick
For LightBoost, You can solve the problem videogames (the ones that turn off LightBoost when they run) by simply deleting 60Hz and 120Hz non-strobed via ToastyX Strobelight. Install only one mode (120Hz strobed). You will be unable to turn LightBoost off, but that will guarantee all 1920x1080p games run with strobing in full screen mode.
To uninstall LightBoost (or simply re-install ability to turn ON/OFF), you re-run strobelight-setup again, and then uninstall/reconfigure LightBoost. But if you don't care about 60Hz, and if you don't care about non-strobed modes, and want to run LightBoost 24/7, then installing only one mode via strobelight-setup (only "120Hz strobed") is a great trick to force all videogames to always run LightBoosted, if some of the games are stubborn at automatically turning off LightBoost. Just remember you need to re-run Strobelight-setup (or unplug your computer monitor for 5 seconds) to deactivate the permanently-enabled LightBoost.
mdrejhon
Member
Without interpolation, it won't be any better than doing 30fps on a 120Hz CRT. 30fps@60Hz (CRT) and 60fps@120Hz (CRT) creates a double-image effect, and 30fps@120Hz (CRT) creates a quadruple-image effect that starts to resemble more sample-and-hold than CRT effect. It works, but it looks >10x worse than 120fps@120Hz.
Future monitors may start to better solve the console strobing problem, such as true hardware 60Hz strobing modes. It's wholly possible NVIDIA G-SYNC will let strobe mode run as low as 60Hz, or some other monitor manufacturer may allow 60Hz strobing.
grandwizard
Member
Believe the hype people. I've been using a 120hz screen since 2006ish and it still confuses me how they aren't the majority standard yet. I found games (especially competitive ones) unplayable coming from a CRT to LCDs and it wasn't until 120hz screens that I could make the switch.
I've been wanting to upgrade for a long time now and g-sync had given me something to plan for. Will probably jump in next year when the monitors start coming out that have it stock.
I've been wanting to upgrade for a long time now and g-sync had given me something to plan for. Will probably jump in next year when the monitors start coming out that have it stock.
ss_lemonade
Member
Hmm, mine almost like that 100% one. I don't notice any difference at all in terms of ghosting when increasing or lowering lightboost on my vg248qe but I always do see a faint trail when running the tests, and it doesn't matter if I have lightboost at 10% or 100%. Here's my attempt at trying to catch that with my phone:You can also show off www.testufo.com/framerates-text and www.testufo.com/photo too. TestUFO Motion Tests are very good for showing this off, it does perfect 120fps@120Hz in Chrome, Opera and FireFox with no plugins. You can even adjust ToastyX Strobelight while you adjust these settings, even including the Strobe settings, such as the LightBoost strobe brightness settings (10%, 50%, 100%) which actually adds slight further improvements to motion clarity, when you use shorter (lower) strobe brightness settings. At lower strobe brightness settings, it has less motion blur than a Sony GDM-W900 CRT.
LightBoost 10% versus 50% versus 100% also makes a minor difference too. For these very subtle settings, view the TestUFO Panning Map test while adjusting LightBoost % settings. You can actually read the map labels with LightBoost, and also additionally turn ON/OFF LightBoost to show the big motion blur mess when LightBoost is turned off. It's a great way to show off LightBoost.
http://abload.de/img/20131121_223719lrs9d.jpg
My eyes feel like they're being massaged when I switch to a 120Hz display.
mdrejhon
Member
There are actually some exceptions, see HDTV Refresh Rate HOWTO: True 120Hz from PC to TV.
Only if you used to get eyestrain with CRT's running at >=100Hz.
Generally, if your eyes loved 120Hz CRT's, you will like LightBoost (or equivalent such as Turbo240 or BENQ Blur Reduction). If you got headaches from CRT even at 100Hz, then beware. If you got headaches from LCD motion blur, then LightBoost can solve that. LightBoost behaves like a 120Hz CRT. But you can also easily turn off LightBoost, and just use plain 120Hz or 144Hz, which is still a lovely fallback.
mdrejhon
Member
It's very subtle. It adds/remove only about 1 pixel of motion blur; e.g. the pay attention to the eyes of the alien at TestUFO Ghosting Test when switching between LightBoost 10% versus 100%...
Also try testing the TestUFO Panning Map Test, when increasing/decreasing LightBoost. The difference between LightBoost=10% and LightBoost=100% becomes easier to see when motion is faster and more detailed, e.g. 1440 pixels/sec or 1920 pixels/sec. You'll notice it is easier to read the street names in the panning map, during LB=10% than LB=100%. However, the difference is so tiny, not everybody can notice. But I know friends who totally swear by LB=10%. It all depends on how good your eyes are; there are definite points of diminishing returns. LightBoost=100% is good enough for most people, though.
Good job in figuring out you needed to pan your camera to capture this properly -- also called "pursuit camera" photography ... That's the more proper way to capture representative eye-tracking-based motion blur. Only pursuit camera accurately simulates eye tracking, not stationary photos. You panned your iPhone camera amazingly accurately by hand, by the way -- I can see you tracked your hand with less than a +/- 1 pixel error margin over a ~1/20sec time period (I can easily see six or seven refreshes captured in your photo based on the -- yet the chase squares remained crystal-sharp. Just by that photo, I can see you have a very steady hand, and without even using a Pursuit Camera Sync Track!
As for the ultra-faint ghost afterimage in the two squares in that photo, that's crosstalk between refreshes (same cause as 3D crosstalk), the remnant of the previous refresh. It's simply the LCD's remaining incomplete pixel transition from the previous refresh cycle. On 1ms LCD's like yours, it's ultra-faint by the time of the next strobe.
Not even a breakthrough they are just lazy about it because lets face it, we are a niche market. That is why it is nice that Nvidia is kinda plowing ahead with their implementation instead of waiting for monitor controller chips to catch up.
You have 2 fundamental limitations to your refresh rate: How often the panel can tolerate updating per second, and how much data you can push across the cable from the computer to the screen.
I think for 2560x1600 the current display port standard will just get us to 120Hz. So there should be a bit more headroom for 1440p.
I have a 120hz screen myself and the difference is night and day.
Still, I like to play with everything on high/ultra so I find myself dipping under 120 quite a lot. I don't want to upgrade my pc even further to get a constant 120 fps either.
I think lightboost is a great tool to mimic CRT quality, but it will always feel inferior to me because you need a pretty high framerate which most people can't keep up on a normal rig.
I'll be impressed when we reach CRT quality again on 60fps. I don't really need the increased smoothness 120hz provides, I just want zero blur and ghosting @60fps. This better happen in my lifetime.
Still, I like to play with everything on high/ultra so I find myself dipping under 120 quite a lot. I don't want to upgrade my pc even further to get a constant 120 fps either.
I think lightboost is a great tool to mimic CRT quality, but it will always feel inferior to me because you need a pretty high framerate which most people can't keep up on a normal rig.
I'll be impressed when we reach CRT quality again on 60fps. I don't really need the increased smoothness 120hz provides, I just want zero blur and ghosting @60fps. This better happen in my lifetime.
120 is the max not minimum. If you can do 100 fps plus there is 3 options for you, 100, 110 and 120hz making it much more attainable.
There are 120Hz 1440p monitors. Check out the OP
mdrejhon
Member
LightBoost works at 100Hz too (LightBoost is like a CRT artificially vendor-limited to only run at 100Hz, 110Hz, or 120Hz). Upcoming strobe backlights such as G-SYNC may also be able to function at 85Hz, and some other brands of strobe backlights may also work one-flash-per-refresh at other lower refresh rates. The main problem is that the lower the strobe rate, the more flicker becomes visible, like a CRT running at lower Hz. Ideally, the consumer should choose, with some healthy/hefty warnings in the graphics drivers.
60fps strobing is already available, by the way, on Sony's equivalent of LightBoost (Sony's low-latency, interpolation-free "Motionflow Impulse"). But it's not a computer monitor.
It's more complicated than that, for adding a strobe back light. To understand why, see:
-- High speed video of 2007 LCD refreshing. This LCD will not work well enough for strobe backlights.
-- High speed video of 2012 LCD refreshing. This LCD is great for strobe backlights.
-- Electronics Hacking: Creating a Strobe Backlight
As you can see in high speed video, LCD's are scanned from top-to-bottom. The important, key point is that the pixel transitions for the whole screen should be (almost) completely finished before the next refresh cycle begins. This was only possible in the last couple years, thanks to active 3D making that an absolute requirement. Unfortunately for many LCD's, the next refresh begins before the transitions in the previous refresh are barely starting; the LCD is in a perpetual non-stop state of ghosting. Law of physics.
Current 1440p screens are incapable of a good motion-blur-reduction strobe backlight, because pixel transitions need to be pretty much finished before the next refresh cycle begins. Speed of screen updates on LCD is independent from refresh rate, you had old 33ms LCD's that blended updates past refreshes, update speed can be slower than the length of a refresh cycle -- it simply streaks across multiple refresh cycles. This is currently what is happening on overclocked IPS panels being driven to 120Hz. In fact users of those noticed no significant motion blur reductions when going beyond approximately 96Hz, because of this very factor -- at 120Hz on QNIX QX2710, the pixel transition takes noticeably longer than a refresh cycle, so you're back to the bad old days of LCD's where transitions were longer than a refresh cycle. Current 1440p LCD's are unable to use a strobe backlight, at the present moment. However, I'd hope engineers are working on it.
It is nothing short of a modern engineering miracle that LCD's have finally become fast enough to finish refreshing before the next refresh begins, making ultra-high-efficiency strobe bqacklights possible -- you simply flash to fully refreshed frames, and hide the ugly LCD stuff in total darkness between refreshes. Full-strobe backlights are many, many, many times more efficient than sequential/segmented scanning backlights due to light leakage between segments. Motion blur during eye-tracking of moving objects, is now easily controlled by length of strobe flash, and since LED's are very fast at flashing, there's no real upper limit on motion clarity on LCD's that manage to cross this technological chasm of a finish line (completing pixel transitions before flash before next refresh). Strobe flashes on the finished refreshes, can now be shorter than the pixel transitions (now hidden in total darkness). There is further progress to be done, by speeding up VA and IPS to the point where this technological chasm is successfully crossed. It is likely a matter of time, as shown by EIZO's Turbo240 successfully bringing strobing to VA.
Something that is easy to forget when you get hyperfocused on blur is the much improved illusion of motion that occurs with higher refresh rates. It's not *all* about blur for a lot of people.
To be honest, I even prefer playing a number of games on my S23A750D with no strobing light than I do on my BenQ XL2420.
To be honest, I even prefer playing a number of games on my S23A750D with no strobing light than I do on my BenQ XL2420.
I guess for strobing that would just play into my panel limitations bit.
What do we know about IGZO panel tech and its potential?
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
As far as my understanding goes, lightboost itself doesn't tax the GPU.. but in order to lightboost games you need to run them in 120hz.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
I want a 120 or 144 monitor, but I can't find one with integrated speakers and also HDMI input that will use the 120 and/or 144 modes.
Using my PS3 as input 2 on my current monitor and it's got some bad motion blur + only 60hz. 30fps games hurt my brain.
Using my PS3 as input 2 on my current monitor and it's got some bad motion blur + only 60hz. 30fps games hurt my brain.
Muppet of a Man
Member
I'd say, that in addition to a fluid framerate, fluid yet responsive in-game animations are just as (if not more) important with regards to the illusion of motion.
If we upgrade our monitors and graphics cards but game makers continue to make games with janky, unresponsive in-game animation, all will have been for naught.
If we upgrade our monitors and graphics cards but game makers continue to make games with janky, unresponsive in-game animation, all will have been for naught.
HDMI can't output 120/144Hz signals at 1080p. There's some workarounds, but those can have odd results.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
Right, but shouldn't the monitor interpolate like a TV does? I read some reviews of a handful of 120 and 144 monitors and it was mentioned in a few that the HDMI input didn't *output* at 120hz. Only 60hz.
Might just have to go with a 60hz set with 1ms.
Thanks a bunch guys. Only two games I care to use it for is Quake (get locked 125FPS on that at all times) and CS GO (get 160+ on that one). So far I've been loving this Asus monitor. Didn't want to make my GPU choke, but you guys alleviated my concerns.
But interpolation adds input lag.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
True. Well thanks anyway I guess.
Looks like I just need to find a nice 1ms monitor. One day I'll deck out the PC setup with 144hz sex.
I gave Lightboost another shot since buying a pair of Gunnar Shadez and now I no longer notice the flicker. The colors are unnatural anyway due to the tint, so this is my new go-to setting for TF2 and Quake. The motion fluidity is much more apparent than the supposed input lag Lightboost causes.
I'd rather have a 60Hz IPS panel for single player games, tho...even if my PC could run current games at 120 fps.
I'd rather have a 60Hz IPS panel for single player games, tho...even if my PC could run current games at 120 fps.
Yeah running a dual monitor setup right now. TN panel and IPS panel. IPS for SP games and TN one for Quake and CS GO.
mdrejhon
Member
Toughie.
I'm a programmer myself, too.
Programming -- favours 1440p monitors, if you want more pixels and bigger desktop. But no 1440p monitors are strobed.
MAME -- favors strobed 120Hz monitor + software-based black frame insertion, see blurbusters.com/mame
Most strobed monitors only strobe at 120Hz, but that can be combined with software-based black frame insertion in some emulators (MAME strobe mode, WinUAE strobe mode, and you can modify other emulators) to suppress every other strobe, so you simulate 60Hz strobed. Emulators actually works nicely with the EIZO FG2421 than many LightBoost monitors, due to much better colors, lack of checkerboard artifact in software black frame insertion mode (similar to artifacts at www.testufo.com/inversion ), and much brighter strobe mode (Turbo240) than most LightBoost monitor. That said, it is also more expensive.
Another good thing about 120Hz with emulators is that even though you can only do 60fps, it still reduces input lag for emulators (60fps), because the frames are delivered to the monitor faster (1/120sec). But motion blur won't be fixed at 60fps@120Hz by itself, /until/ you use either software black frame insertion and/or strobing (preferably both. One or the other helps, but both simultaneously produces the best effect).
mdrejhon
Member
It's worth noting that newer LightBoost-style strobe technologies (e.g. EIZO Turbo240 etc), has no color degradation relative to non-strobed. Strobing doesn't necessarily always mean bad colors, it just depends on the monitor. Also some models (e.g. VG278H LightBoost) has better LightBoost color than VG248QE.
Someday we will get our cake and eat it too. For now, there are the compromises (e.g. price, or color quality, or brightness, etc).
s-bojan
Banned
Thanks for the reply.
To be honest, even with lower resolution, I would probably prefer working in 120/144.
I never really adapted to 60hz monitors.
Been trying to overclock my Panasonic 3d plasma with no luck yet. My gpu has a mini hdmi out though, I'm guessing that is the problem. I tried it through my receiver which is hdmi 1.4, and tried it directly into the same output on the tv I normally connect to the receiver.
I'm in a major holding pattern with all this stuff right now anyway. I don't want to upgrade my 580 or buy a monitor till the 800 series cards are out. I was hoping to play some low end games at 120 on the plasma like Marvel Heroes or Diablo 3.
I'm in a major holding pattern with all this stuff right now anyway. I don't want to upgrade my 580 or buy a monitor till the 800 series cards are out. I was hoping to play some low end games at 120 on the plasma like Marvel Heroes or Diablo 3.
mdrejhon
Member
If you're willing to settle for 1080p, then you have lots of choices in the listing of 120Hz/144Hz/240Hz monitors. For the most eye-friendly computer programming, spring extra $$$ for the Eizo FG2421. It's not perfect, a 240Hz monitor that is really a 120Hz VA, however, it's pleasant to look at during computer programming. If you prefer something cheaper, choose the LightBoost-enabled BENQ XL2420TE, with the E suffix.
This is true too. Strobe backlights makes it much easier to see stutters, so stutters in any bad game engines are amplified, and other sources such as a stuttery mouse.
For best results, you want triple-digit framerates (get close to stroberate = framerate), a good GPU, a good gaming engine, and a good gaming mouse, to really make the strobe backlights (LightBoost, Turbo240, etc) sing a good tune, in beautiful motion fluidity.
On certain displays, 120Hz can be done completely flawlessly over HDMI (e.g. Seiki 4K 50", Sony KDL-50R550A, Optoma HD720, Optoma HD750 -- these are specific models with 100% success reports of true 120Hz) Very easy with ToastyX Custom Resolution Utility on those models. It's a matter of having the right electronics in the chip.
Other times, it's a big hassle -- a very spotty record (e.g. different models of Sony/Panasonic). Often, 720p@120Hz is much more reliable. Also, intermediate refresh rates often won't work (120hz is often more reliable than 100Hz, 110Hz). Experimenting with the size of the blanking intervals can also help on certain models.
For more information, see HDTV Refresh Rate HOWTO: True 120Hz from PC to TV.
That's the thing about recommending consumer products. It's hard to say "well you can *maybe* do it if it ends up working out". People might make a decision and feel a bit bummed, despite prior warnings.
By the way, on your AMD mult-monitor recommendation, are you aware of the frame pacing issue?
tl;dr, the crossfire bridge only supports transferring images that are 2MP. As a result, any eyefinity setup using multiple GPUs with the crossfire cable (not a concern with 290/290X) will have very inconsistent frame delivery. It has to send part of the image over the crossfire cable, and part of it over the PCI-E bus. When it gets ready for the output, it becomes all jumbled. Lots of tears, stutters, etc.
By the way, on your AMD mult-monitor recommendation, are you aware of the frame pacing issue?
tl;dr, the crossfire bridge only supports transferring images that are 2MP. As a result, any eyefinity setup using multiple GPUs with the crossfire cable (not a concern with 290/290X) will have very inconsistent frame delivery. It has to send part of the image over the crossfire cable, and part of it over the PCI-E bus. When it gets ready for the output, it becomes all jumbled. Lots of tears, stutters, etc.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
So has anyone forced Spelunky to play at 120hz. I found a steam forum thread from august with a feature request and the guy who made it said he'd look into it for a patch but nothing ever came of it.
Monty Mole
Member
60Hz on LCD
60Hz on CRT & Plasma
You don't necessarily need a faster refresh rate, just a better display technology.
60Hz on CRT & Plasma
You don't necessarily need a faster refresh rate, just a better display technology.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
Can you take pictures like that with an iPhone? I'm eating a bowl of cereal so right now its easier for me to ask instead of actually just do it. The heater is on and its really warm in here.
It's not just about the blur though. It's also about smoother animations and more convincing illusion of movement. Plus not having to have FPS locked, leading to lower input response times and/or input lag.
Yeah. Not certain how well they'd turn out though.
Taco_Human
Member
Well, with the help of a bit of money off bitcoin I caved a d bought myself the Asus the OP. I can't wait to try it out...
Currently, there is no monitor that supports 60Hz w/ lightboost.
mdrejhon
Member
These are pursuit camera photographs. The instructions are at HOWTO: Pursuit Camera with Blur Busters Motion Tests.
The quoted UFO "60Hz on CRT/plasma" by Monty Mole is actually my own pursuit camera test on a LightBoost display, the original source of the photos is actually from PHOTOS: 60Hz vs 120Hz vs LightBoost. However, this is quite an accurate comparision, because strobe-backlight gaming LCD's are now competitive with CRT's/plasma's in motion clarity now.
From a purely law-of-physics standpoint, the matter of "charging" the pixels in total darkness doesn't matter (e.g. priming a plasma cell before flashing a subfield, mechanism of scanning "electron gun", or merely refreshing an LCD panel in total darkness between strobe backlight flashes) -- What is seen by the human eye is what matters. The CRT phosphor flash, the plasma phosphor flash, or the strobe backlight flash. The bottom line, is apparently, now it's possible to have strobed gaming LCD's that has less motion blur than certain CRT's and plasma's (testimonials).
There's no 60hz LightBoost.
LightBoost is like owning a CRT that's limited to running at 100 to 120Hz. However, strobing isn't technologically limited to those rates; it's what the vendor decides what strobe rates are allowed; they don't like releasing low strobe rates due to the flicker complaints it would cause. The higher the strobe rate (refresh rate), the less flicker -- like a high-refresh-rate CRT.
However, the upcoming new BENQ XL2720Z monitor (with the Z suffix) supports strobing from 75Hz through 144Hz, for those interested in knowing (I tweeted about that).
Takeda Kenshi
blew Staal
Mark,
I'm dying to read your FG2421 review; any idea when we can expect it up on your site? I plan on using it to determine if I should get it or another monitor.
Thank you.
I'm dying to read your FG2421 review; any idea when we can expect it up on your site? I plan on using it to determine if I should get it or another monitor.
Thank you.
mdrejhon
Member
The site move to a new web hosting service, the Thanksgiving weekend, and the replacement i1 Display Pro (warranty issue), has pushed the review back by a little bit. To speed things up, I'm posting the EIZO FG2421 review in two parts, with the first part being published by the end of this week!
For a good appetizer -- check out PC Games Hardware's YouTube comparison between Lightboost versus Turbo240. The audio is in German, but the video is an interesting compare for geeks that like high speed camera tests.
Takeda Kenshi
blew Staal
Thanks for the heads up Mark. Will definitely check it out once it's available.