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18 Students Charged in Penn State Hazing Death

RyanW

Member
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Also, calling people who are/were in fraternities "Greek" is insulting to actual Greeks, and the entire country of Greece.

You can do both. There's nothing wrong with wanting to join a fraternity or sorority, especially if they're not the whole stereotypical party org that makes the rest of them look bad.

And that's fair and I apologize for referring to this as Greek Life

Notice how I said social frats.

That's almost all of the "traditional" fraternities that I'm referring to, which not all are the same.
 
You can do both. There's nothing wrong with wanting to join a fraternity or sorority, especially if they're not the whole stereotypical party org that makes the rest of them look bad.

But you can do what you highlight as the good part, without having the bad part.
That is, saying "Well, you can do X, Y, and Z in frats" does nothing to justify frats when you can do X, Y, and Z without frats.
 

Izayoi

Banned
The Greek system should be abolished in its entirety. Between shit like this and the ridiculous amount of sexual assault that happens within the framework of the system there is really no excuse for it to still be around. It is a relic of a bygone era, and should be treated as such.
 

RyanW

Member
But you can do what you highlight as the good part, without having the bad part.
That is, saying "Well, you can do X, Y, and Z in frats" does nothing to justify frats when you can do X, Y, and Z without frats.
And I've seen that at my university and I'm not taking that away from anyone. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am fortunate that the chapter I am involved in doesn't do anything near the stupid shit others do and proud that we fall under the organizations on campus that others strive to be.

From my personal experience with it so far compared to the other organizations I'm involved in I feel like I'm getting more out of this than others. I know that's vague and probably means nothing but that's how I feel


The Greek system should be abolished in its entirety. Between shit like this and the ridiculous amount of sexual assault that happens within the framework of the system there is really no excuse for it to still be around. It is a relic of a bygone era, and should be treated as such.

Or like in anything else you can weed out the bad while preserving the good. It's not uncommon for universities and an organization's national HQ to suspend or kick out/expel a chapter
 

Jag

Member
Text messages from Beta Theta Pi brothers are used in the prosecution.

Detective Scicchitano testified that law enforcement also uncovered evidence from a number of fraternity members' cell phones which revealed conversations concerning the purchase of alcohol for Beta fraternity events. Text messages exchanged between various brothers of the fraternity give indication of ongoing hazing in the fraternity.

In case people don't already know this, anything you type and send over the intertubes can and will be used against you. (yes, that includes GAF)

Ems: Do we have any hazing events going on tonight

Seriously?

It also provides an insight to pledging for people who may not have experienced it. My son will be in college in 3 years. I'm going to have him read this article now, so he sees how dangerous this shit can be.

We didn't have cell phones in college and we probably did some low level hazing in my frat. But I would be terrified to do it today.
 

Dyle

Member
Man, this whole situation is one of so many things that makes me ashamed to be a Beta. I loved being in a fraternity and there were multiple times when the support of my bros kept me from making irreversible decisions and attempting to kill myself. It was crucial to me to have a tight-knit network of friends that made it possible to survive and thrive in college, but almost everyone in our chapter was uneasy with fraternity culture beyond our campus. We took great strides to be very inclusive and when some of the guys went to national events for the chapter leadership, it was always surprising to see that our chapter seemed to be the only one with minority and international students in leadership roles. There were discussions every year over whether it was better to continue to be affiliated with the national fraternity or not, with the decision being that we would continue to be affiliated reluctantly, knowing that if we attempted to go independent we would lose the insurance policies that made it possible for us to live in our own house on campus. I have to imagine those discussions are even more intense now.

Everything that has come out of this case demonstrates poor leadership, not just on the Penn State chapter's part, but on the advisers hired by General as well. There were tons of red flags that the chapter's organization was inherently flawed and invited dangerous practices, particularly the fact that the chapter's risk manager, whose job it is to oversee all chapter events, was also involved in organizing parties and buying booze, the most obvious conflict of interest that should have been noticed and shot down by the chapter's advisers long before any events he was supposed to oversee took place. When I was in college, I thought Beta general did a decent job at providing basic training to chapter leadership, but looking at this horrific case it's clear that my chapter was simply different.

The letter from the General fraternity to all alums was particularly heinous in the way it shirked responsibility and attempted to explain away the structural reasons why this, and some many other hazing crimes, happen. It shamelessly threw all the blame at the students at Penn State while tossing aside the idea that any aspect of their chapter leadership's training was faulty or insufficient, making it appear that it was unthinkable that such a thing could happen at such a good chapter. I genuinely hope that Beta General ends up facing some charges, it may be the only way to ensure that the fraternity as a whole actually acts to prevent these crimes from happening.
 
I remember drinking an insane amount of booze at college. I lived in a house where crowds would violently scream at people not drinking enough and just constantly push shots in their face.

The whole time I was thinking, "this is what our grandfathers did, this is what our dads did - they had the time of their lives."

No doubt this is the collective sentiment that killed this kid. Nobody thought he would die because they assumed every party house on every campus has a passed out guy who puked and fell down stairs after 80 shots. The drunk math being the chances are very low he will need a doctor much less die.

Drinking will always be a campus sport, however when shit like this happen a message has to be sent. Throw the book at them. Hard. Illustrate what needs to be done if you see this shit on campus and what happens if you ignore it.
 
They are criminals who are going to see jail time. (I know you were being sarcastic) I don't think the prosecutors are fucking around on this one.

One would hope not, especially since someone died because people didn't care enough to call for help. That and the fact that Penn State, at least main, is supposed to be a dry campus.
 
Man, this whole situation is one of so many things that makes me ashamed to be a Beta. I loved being in a fraternity and there were multiple times when the support of my bros kept me from making irreversible decisions and attempting to kill myself. It was crucial to me to have a tight-knit network of friends that made it possible to survive and thrive in college, but almost everyone in our chapter was uneasy with fraternity culture beyond our campus. We took great strides to be very inclusive and when some of the guys went to national events for the chapter leadership, it was always surprising to see that our chapter seemed to be the only one with minority and international students in leadership roles. There were discussions every year over whether it was better to continue to be affiliated with the national fraternity or not, with the decision being that we would continue to be affiliated reluctantly, knowing that if we attempted to go independent we would lose the insurance policies that made it possible for us to live in our own house on campus. I have to imagine those discussions are even more intense now.

Everything that has come out of this case demonstrates poor leadership, not just on the Penn State chapter's part, but on the advisers hired by General as well. There were tons of red flags that the chapter's organization was inherently flawed and invited dangerous practices, particularly the fact that the chapter's risk manager, whose job it is to oversee all chapter events, was also involved in organizing parties and buying booze, the most obvious conflict of interest that should have been noticed and shot down by the chapter's advisers long before any events he was supposed to oversee took place. When I was in college, I thought Beta general did a decent job at providing basic training to chapter leadership, but looking at this horrific case it's clear that my chapter was simply different.

The letter from the General fraternity to all alums was particularly heinous in the way it shirked responsibility and attempted to explain away the structural reasons why this, and some many other hazing crimes, happen. It shamelessly threw all the blame at the students at Penn State while tossing aside the idea that any aspect of their chapter leadership's training was faulty or insufficient, making it appear that it was unthinkable that such a thing could happen at such a good chapter. I genuinely hope that Beta General ends up facing some charges, it may be the only way to ensure that the fraternity as a whole actually acts to prevent these crimes from happening.

I'm going to need some help here. Beta General focuses heavily on anti-hazing, reporting, and just being a good person. It's pervasive to the point they actually get criticized for being anti-hazing and for collaborating with other fraternity/sorority leaders. Hell in 2006 when I first pledged, one of my first meetings included our chapter giving out the number to general fraternity to be able to report any issues or uncomfortable situations.

This is an unthinkable event. Even in usual hazing cases, someone isn't left for dead that long after whatever incident goes wrong. I'm not sure what can be said about not helping someone in distress. Other than not leave them in distress.This wasn't an issue of leaders not knowing what to do. They knew exactly what to do. They chose to act as if nothing was wrong - an issue that not so jokingly seems to run deep at Penn St as a whole.

As for the chapter specifically, advisors generally are not hired. They're volunteers and usually are recent alumni from the same chapter or from other chapters. Certainly it is an issue if advisors were letting egregious things happen without intervening, though, or not being truthful in their reporting to the administrative office. But at some point, you rely on the self-governance nature of the local organization to correct itself - especially if incidents locally were considered more minor as a whole. If you're saying the Beta general organization knew of things like advisors buying booze and still not doing anything, then yeah that is something to look into. I'd agree with that.
 

Deepwater

Member
Hazing is set up to remain in greek life culture as long as the leadership at the chapter/regional level is permeated with people willing to turn a blind eye or even participate in it as well.

Risk managers, intake coordinators , regional/state directors across the nation for every org usually has somebody who's willing to overlook hazing because (1) they believe in that shit too, or (2) they're not so hot on it but let it go on because other members pressure them into it

Even if you have a chapter president or intake coordinator who's willing to go by the book, they often succumb to peer pressure either from other chapter members, or alumni who would withhold support if intake wasn't done "traditionally".

Hazing is going to continue to happen amongst these college aged kids because shit will go awry when you leave 20 and 21 year olds in charge of pledging impressionable 18/19 year olds. Not everybody is suited for that power. And even if you do have somebody with some sense in charge of intake, you then have other chapter members who will do shit on the low. Obviously this is a spectrum of this phenomenon, where you have the entire chapter inundated with people who want to haze, and then you have cases where you have just a couple of members who want to have a power trip.

Too many people see greek life as a "rite of passage" rather than a careful vetting of members. That mindset I think forms the root of a lot of the causes of hazing
 

Dyle

Member
I'm going to need some help here. Beta General focuses heavily on anti-hazing, reporting, and just being a good person. It's pervasive to the point they actually get criticized for being anti-hazing and for collaborating with other fraternity/sorority leaders. Hell in 2006 when I first pledged, one of my first meetings included our chapter giving out the number to general fraternity to be able to report any issues or uncomfortable situations.

This is an unthinkable event. Even in usual hazing cases, someone isn't left for dead that long after whatever incident goes wrong. I'm not sure what can be said about not helping someone in distress. Other than not leave them in distress.This wasn't an issue of leaders not knowing what to do. They knew exactly what to do. They chose to act as if nothing was wrong - an issue that not so jokingly seems to run deep at Penn St as a whole.

As for the chapter specifically, advisors generally are not hired. They're volunteers and usually are recent alumni from the same chapter or from other chapters. Certainly it is an issue if advisors were letting egregious things happen without intervening, though, or not being truthful in their reporting to the administrative office. But at some point, you rely on the self-governance nature of the local organization to correct itself - especially if incidents locally were considered more minor as a whole. If you're saying the Beta general organization knew of things like advisors buying booze and still not doing anything, then yeah that is something to look into. I'd agree with that.
I agree that the general fraternity says a ton about how horrible hazing is and discourages everyone from doing it, but they don't take all that much action against preventing it. You see chapters get suspended or shut down all the time, for instance Alpha chapter a couple years ago, but there's definitely more they can and should do to prevent these events long before they occur. The fact that their risk manager was doing double duty to organize this event and control it is something that should never happen, as it's the risk manager's job to ensure events are safe. This kind of obvious delegation of responsibility should have been drilled into him, or at least his predecessor, at Keystone or other events for chapter leadership.

In addition to the volunteer advisers, my chapter had an adviser who oversaw a number of chapters, maybe 8 or 9, and acted as a liason between the chapters and general, which I think is a recent development. This adviser actually identified a number of areas where our leadership was lacking and held us to a higher standard than we would have otherwise. He worked closely with all our leaders and would visit the house for a couple days at a time. If the PSU chapter had an adviser like this, then General almost certainly has to hold some responsibility because it is hard to believe they did not forsee trouble with obvious warnings. This is why I think the general fraternity should be held accountable, because for this to happen, all these safeguards, from anti-hazing language, to leadership seminars, to staff advisers failed to prevent a horrific event, that a more vigilant chapter could have seen coming long before it happened. Just the fact that they had a pledge event called "the gauntlet" tells all. The only way General should get off the hook is if they can prove that the chapter was lying to their advisers and disregarding their advice, which seems unlikely. The student's death was unthinkable and the guys will be solely responsible for refusing to help him, but the hazing was completely preventable and forseeable by General leadership.
 

Ashhong

Member
I have no respect for any frats that do hazing (which as far as I am aware, is a lot). I know a lot of people that went through it and it sounds stupid as fuck. Of course some of them love being in the frat and say it was worth it, but not all. I cannot get behind it at all.
 

Jag

Member
I remember drinking an insane amount of booze at college. I lived in a house where crowds would violently scream at people not drinking enough and just constantly push shots in their face.

The whole time I was thinking, "this is what our grandfathers did, this is what our dads did - they had the time of their lives."

No doubt this is the collective sentiment that killed this kid. Nobody thought he would die because they assumed every party house on every campus has a passed out guy who puked and fell down stairs after 80 shots. The drunk math being the chances are very low he will need a doctor much less die.

I pledged in 1986 (over 30 years ago!) and this was exactly my experience. From what I've read this Beta was doing things worse than anything we did, but it's not that dissimilar, which is scary as hell. We were 18, free and totally invincible. At least that's what we thought.

I know that we never would have been this criminally negligent at least. They just didn't give a shit about this poor kid.
 
Figured I'd bump this thread for context instead of making a new one. There's an extraordinary longread on the Atlantic about what happened here:

Every year or so brings another such death, another healthy young college man a victim of hazing at the hands of one of the nation’s storied social fraternities. And with each new death, the various stakeholders perform in ways that are so ritualized, it’s almost as though they are completing the second half of the same hazing rite that killed the boy.

The fraternity enters a “period of reflection”; it may appoint a “blue-ribbon panel.” It will announce reforms that look significant to anyone outside the system, but that are essentially cosmetic. Its most dramatic act will be to shut down the chapter, and the house will stand empty for a time, its legend growing ever more thrilling to students who walk past and talk of a fraternity so off the chain that it killed a guy. In short order it will “recolonize” on the campus, and in a few years the house will be back in business.

The president of the college or university where the tragedy occurred will make bold statements about ensuring there is never another fraternity death at his institution. But he knows—or will soon discover—that fraternity executives do not serve at the pleasure of college presidents. He will be forced into announcing his own set of limp reforms. He may “ban” the fraternity from campus, but since the fraternity will have probably closed the chapter already, he will be revealed as weak.

The media will feast on the story, which provides an excuse to pay an unwarranted amount of attention to something viewers are always interested in: the death of a relatively affluent white suburban kid. Because the culprits are also relatively affluent white suburban kids, there is no need to fear pandering to the racial bias that favors stories about this type of victim. The story is ultimately about the callousness and even cruelty of white men.

The grieving parents will appear on television. In their anger and sorrow, they will hope to press criminal charges. Usually they will also sue the fraternity, at which point they will discover how thoroughly these organizations have indemnified themselves against culpability in such deaths. The parents will try to turn their grief into meaningful purpose, but they will discover how intractable a system they are up against, and how draining the process of chipping away at it is. They will be worn down by the endless civil case that forces them to relive their son’s passing over and over. The ritual will begin to slow down, but then a brand-new pair of parents—filled with the energy and outrage of early grief—will emerge, and the cycle will begin again.

In late may, shortly after the grand jury’s harrowing presentment was released to the public, Jud Horras appeared on CBS This Morning. In a conversation with Gayle King, Charlie Rose, and Norah O’Donnell, he was measured, calm, and so ungraspable—always separating the thugs of one rogue chapter from the larger entity of the fraternity industry—that midway through the interview, O’Donnell lost her patience and interrupted him.

“There have been 60 deaths over eight years involving fraternity activities,” she said angrily. “There should be zero tolerance. There should be immediate action on this. It is unacceptable. This is murder.”

Her sentiment was one shared by many people when they learned about what had happened to Tim Piazza, but it revealed a common misunderstanding: Fraternities do have a zero-tolerance policy regarding hazing. And that’s probably one of the reasons Tim Piazza is dead.

For most of their long history, fraternities pretty much did as they pleased. But in the 1980s, parents of injured and dead children began to fight back: They sued the organizations and began to recover huge sums in damages. Insurance companies dropped fraternities en masse. Because of this crisis, the modern fraternity industry was born, one that is essentially self-insured, with fraternities pooling their money to create a fund from which damages are paid.

The executives realized that even if they couldn’t change members’ behavior, they had to indemnify themselves against it, which they did by creating an incredibly strict set of rules, named for a term of art in the insurance industry: risk-management policies. These policies forbid not just the egregious behaviors of hazing and sexual assault, but also a vast range of activities that comprise normal fraternity life in the majority of chapters. You can’t play beer pong in a fraternity house. You can’t have a sip of alcohol if you’re under the age of 21, or allow anyone else who’s underage to have a sip of alcohol. During a party, alcohol consumption must be tightly regulated. Either the chapter can hire a third-party vendor to sell drinks—and to assume all liability for what happens after guests consume them—or members and guests may each bring a small amount of alcohol for personal use and hand it over to a monitor who labels it, and then metes it back to the owner in a slow trickle.

In an emergency, when the police and an ambulance show up, the national organization will easily be able to prove that the members were in violation of its policies, and will therefore be able to cut them loose and deny them any of the benefits—including the payment of attorneys’ fees and damages—that come with the fraternity insurance the members themselves have paid for.

Fraternity members live under the shadow of giant sanctions and lawsuits that can result even from what seem like minor incidents. The strict policies promote a culture of secrecy, and when something really does go terribly wrong, the young men usually start scrambling to protect themselves. Doug Fierberg, a Washington, D.C., lawyer whose practice is built on representing plaintiffs in fraternity lawsuits, told me that “in virtually every hazing death, there is a critical three or four hours after the injury when the brothers try to figure out what to do. It is during those hours that many victims pass the point of no return.”


There are terrible, chilling details about everything that happened to Piazza, but it's the intricacies of how so-called protections may be making things worse that really make this a remarkable piece, I think. The whole thing is sad, just this devastating patchwork of interviews, observations, facts, and details sewn together to tell not just one story of death, but a continuing story. Worth the time for the read.
 
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