Because you literally took it there. Because it always goes there. Because Joe Pa was literally all about football.
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200 former Penn State players file petition to return Paterno statue
- Thread starter ElectricBlanketFire
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Because you literally took it there. Because it always goes there. Because Joe Pa was literally all about football.
We have someone posting the narrative that Joe Paterno was a great man who cared about his students with his "grand experiment" in this very topic.
Yeah. When it first went down and during the legal fight. Lots.
Already Torn
Banned
Read the whole last page. Someone brought up how well Joe Pa did in his last years as a coach a counterpoint to how much of a worthless scumbag he was. Some people would rather lie to themselves than admit they admired the worst people on earth. Their brain warps reality to soothe their conscience.
ElRenoRaven
Member
I like this idea. Fuck each and every one of those 200 former Penn state players. Just shows why that program should have been killed. Too much of a cult there.
I'm from around the area. Right after the shitstorm started a lot of people didn't think the football program should be punished at all. They thought what's done is done and there's no reason to punish current players and fans. I stopped bringing up the topic since I was quickly losing respect for most of the people I've known my whole life.
That statue was actually melted down and turned into Bronze Letters for the science building.
No, I brought up his good deeds around the campus and the way he was treated outside of his position as a football coach to try and show that this isn't solely an issue of "he good at football, he good man." People truly thought he was a great person and they're having trouble or outright refusing to acknowledge that he did terrible things, and I think that itself is worth investigating. I started out my first post saying that he and the school both should have been punished more than they originally got, and certainly more than what it was dropped down to. I mentioned that he wasn't a great coach in passing because it didn't matter and people still loved him. Nothing I said was to excuse him or the people supporting him, I just think it's fascinating that he gets this support and there are factors other than his teams' performance that caused it.
Paterno being a football coach let him run around and do whatever he wanted with confidence, including covering up and ignoring the ongoing abuse of children. Paterno seemingly being an angel on earth to that town is what caused his support to continue after the facts were out.
Prinz Eugn
Member
I don't think he's repeating the narrative as fact, just acknowledging it as a narrative that certainly does exist for some people.
I think the point is that while the Joe Pa myth is certainly based in winning at football, it was so strong because it supposedly went beyond just winning games. The Paterno library, player academic success, etc. He went above and beyond what people expect from a football coach, or so it goes.
Already Torn
Banned
When people shout "409", they're talking about football. The whole school was about football, and the football program overtook the whole culture. That's why many Penn State fans took it as an attack on their identity when it was revealed that their football program, the soul of their school, was rotten to its core and that their hero was a monster. It's all about football, and that's why the program should have been wiped out and restarted from scratch.
Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
These people really aren't going to go away until they have literally everything back are they?
Like the NCAA already fucked up by basically rescinding the punishment and now they want their damn statue back that should have been melted down into scrap and the proceeds given to the victims.
Like the NCAA already fucked up by basically rescinding the punishment and now they want their damn statue back that should have been melted down into scrap and the proceeds given to the victims.
The only sensible response.
He didn't have "good deeds" around campus. He threw a minuscule fraction of his football earnings around, specifically so he could propagate his narrative that his football program was exceptional and special, specifically to keep his program relevant. Much like when a politician donates a tiny amount of money for publicity (something Donald Trump does often)
You say it's not about football - you're blind. Those football players are not calling for his statue to return because he built a library. Look at the breakdown of the players who are calling for the return - most are from the era where he was winning national championships. Bullshit football isn't the reason they are calling for his statue to return.
TheChocoboCadet
Banned
[citation needed]
As someone who went to Penn State, I can say the hero-worship is awful here. But the demonizing of the man on this forum is just as ridiculous. Joe Paterno wasn't a god like some PSU students seem to think, but he isn't some caricature villain either. He was a man. A man who clearly made some mistakes in life. He did good things and bad things. Does he deserve a statue after what he did? Meh, I say no. But this idea that the good things he did had no altruistic intent behind it is delusional.
Already Torn
Banned
So Jim Harbaugh is stabbing Paterno?
People only cared about JoePa because of football. If he was some Joe Nobody doing shit around town nobody would've given a shit. He put Penn St on the map in football, which probably helped them out in other areas, but the ultimate source was football. His whole thing was winning with class--winning football games--which ultimately of course turned out to be horseshit, but people want to hold onto it. Because of football.
There is no scenario where anyone outside his immediate family are still defending this guy if he wasn't a winning football coach.
TheClimaxan
Member
I still have a bad taste in my mouth from watching Penn State students riot after Paterno was dismissed. Get your priorities straight assholes.
Throw the statue in the ocean like fucking megatron and broadcast the tears of all Penn State alumni live for the world to see.
Throw the statue in the ocean like fucking megatron and broadcast the tears of all Penn State alumni live for the world to see.
Already Torn
Banned
One of the people everyone hated from my high school ended up on the Daily Show sobbing at the riots because of how unfair the press was being to Joe Pa's legacy. He's never gonna live it down.
That's not defending his actions. It's pointing out that he was a human and did some undeniably great things for people. He also did some unspeakably terrible things for people. Everybody needs to stop pretending that one side or the other didn't exist if we actually want to make progress. I'm all for saying the bad things he did outweigh the good enough that he shouldn't be idolized. He should be remembered most for being put in a position of power and failing the people who needed him to exorcise that power most. We should still see the good things he did and admit them. Not because it excuses the bad, but because it's very important for people to keep in mind that somebody can appear to be a great person but still do things we should never excuse.
peteykirch
Member
Maybe not his last 20, but the last 10 it was clear the game passed him by.
He shat himself a couple times.
His "squeeky clean" program image fell apart with DOZENS of players getting arrested in a few year span.
Progress towards what?
LiquidSword
Member
Always followed this story from a distance since I don't really care about football. I never knew there was a riot after he was fired. Like WTF? That's disgusting
Penn State went 11-2 in 2008, played in a BCS bowl, and finished ranked #8 in the country. He followed that up by going 11-2 in 2009 and finishing ranked #8 in the country.
Penn State went 47-17 in his last 5 seasons.
Sure.
This is a good idea. Or drop it to the bottom of the ocean. Return it? Fuck that shit.
peteykirch
Member
I don't know what you want me to say.
It was well documented that in his last 3-4 years he wasn't calling plays at all, and was more of a figurehead.
Let's be honest the Big 10 as a whole towards the end of Joe Pa's tenure was pretty damn weak. It was OSU/UM/PSU.
Well I'd like you to say that this myth that people didn't care about joe paterno's brand of football by the end of his career is bullshit, because it was. Who cares if he called plays, the contention was that by the end of his career, PSU football wasn't relevant so allegations that he was all about football life don't apply... except that's clearly not the case. PSU football was still elite right up until the moment they fired him. Football was still central to his legacy. His teams weren't "mediocre" the last 20 years, 10 years, 5 years, whatever bullshit year span people want to throw out to help him save face.
Already Torn
Banned
Oh, of course. I mean you still see students taking pictures with cardboard cutouts of dear old Joe Pa, even though he was in hell before they even applied to Penn State.
peteykirch
Member
I never liked the man.
I never liked how he had a holier than thou attitude.
He was the face on the cult of personality he facilitated.
http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2008/6/10/549568/outside-the-lines-is-cross
AntraxSuicide
Banned
It's off-topic, but this is in the Big 10. It's not exactly difficult to do well there. *Rimshot*
And I'd melt the statue into the shape of an ass (animal or anus, take your pick!) and plant it on top of his grave.
To be honest, it might be a monkey's paw thing to let them put the statue back up. No way they keep graffiti off of it for more than a day. And it would be swiftly replaced if cleaned.
neat, but none of that has anything to do with what we were talking about. The conversation was about bullshit reasons people worship Joe Paterno. A PSU fan is trying to claim that the PSU product had fallen off, that PSU football was "bad to mediocre" by the end, and thus the good will PSU fans give Joe Paterno is not because of the cult of PSU football, but because of something else. To quote,
Seriously?
You should pay attention to the conversation before jumping in.
I'm not sure what progress you think we should be aiming for or can even make. The defenders aren't saying "well yes this was bad but he also did some good," they straight-up refuse to believe he did anything wrong. If we acknowledge that he also did some good things, are they going to go "oh thanks for that acknowledgement, now I will admit that he covered up for Sandusky"? Of course not. The crime here is so heinous that the only way they can justify continuing to deify JoePa is if the whole thing was a smear job.
Like, imagine that both sides reach a compromise. The statue of JoePa goes back up, and it says "congrats on 409 wins and doing great things for the community." And then behind it is another statue of a child screaming that says "this was the price of those wins" or something. Would JoePa fans be ok with that? Or hell, tone it down. Just list the number of abused children right below the number of wins. Would they even be ok with that? Of course not, because again, that would require acknowledging that JoePa did something wrong.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
I'm cringing to think of how many of those signees probably don't hate Sandusky either.
But to people who say the current program shouldn't be punished, it's only a matter of looking at where they were before the abuse was being brushed under the rug, then seeing the incredible financial gains and clout in the world they got as a direct result of keeping things secret. The program as we know it to be is built on lies, it wouldn't be where it was without them.
But to people who say the current program shouldn't be punished, it's only a matter of looking at where they were before the abuse was being brushed under the rug, then seeing the incredible financial gains and clout in the world they got as a direct result of keeping things secret. The program as we know it to be is built on lies, it wouldn't be where it was without them.
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
Never underestimate the power of a cult.
peteykirch
Member
PSU struggled in the early 00's.
They had some good years, but mainly took advantage of a downtrodden BIg10, especially when sanctions were levied against OSU.
Now the team is a wreck, the cult ran Bill O'Brien out of town, and replaced him with a snake oil salesman as a HC who had his own rape controversy of his own at Vandy.
No i think 99% of Penn State fans hate Sandusky as much as anyone else in this world.
But probably more for what impact he had on the football program as a result of his crimes and not necessarily for what he did to those kids.
peteykirch
Member
they struggled in the early 00's, and then they came back and Joe Pa approached the all-time wins record.
Again, I don't know what the hell you're trying to prove here? You think the riots when they fired Joe Pa are because people were just so wild about graduation rates? It was literally all about football success. People worship Joe Paterno because he built a winning football program. Period.
Already Torn
Banned
I think this is pretty evident in the push to reinstate the #409 wins. It's about football. Everything at Penn State was about football.
Neffarias_Bredd
Member
I live in PA, and still see cars all over the place with "409" bumper stickers on the back.
Its kind of nice, pretty much immediately lets me know they're a moron
Its kind of nice, pretty much immediately lets me know they're a moron
peteykirch
Member
Well duh;
Joe Pa built the cult brick by brick.
There's isn't much to do in the middle of no where on the PSU campus.
I wish the NCAA actually did give them the death penalty just to see that little town go belly up.
For one, there's progress to be made in that people who recognize he did awful things won't recognize he also did good. Two sides are oversimplifying this entire situation and as a result nobody is actually thinking about what happened or why. And taking the absurd position that everything he ever did was because of greed will never allow anybody who defends him out of ignorance to step up and learn.
Case in point, the only time I ever heard anyone seriously talk about Joe Paterno stepping down was after his 3-9 season and 4-7 season. And then he followed it up with an 11-1 season and suddenly it was back to worshipping Joe Pa all over again. in fact, I remember an interview on ESPN during those years where someone asked him directly what he had to say to the alumni calling for him to retire, and he replied "11 and 1."
I don't think the way to make those who defend Joe Paterno "step up and learn" is to deify him and make his contributions about more than football. Because it wasn't. Literally everything was about his football empire.
There is nothing to oversimplify, because it's an astoundingly simple situation - football was his life blood, and he did absolutely everything to make his brand of football special and overly important.
Nobody gives a shit that about him raising money for a library. Nobody is calling for his football wins to come back because he graduated students.
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