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[zoku88]

What's the big deal?

People feel entitled, no matter how they compare to people in other countries, it seems...

 

[Superman00]

listen 20k is not the only benefit they receive. thats a tax return because they could pop out kids


thats excluding welfare, fod stamps, government housing they receive in addition to that

WTF are you talking about. Where the hell do you get 3 grand tax returns for a child? I would love to know, so I can tell my mother. As my mom has applied for some of those, and rejected. It's isn't easy to get it, you have to be really poor to qualified for those. So stop talking out of your ass.

 

[HylianTom]

ITT the wealthy cry because they lose out on a little spending money for the good of the country.

Poor babies.

(blue-blood accent "I'm sorry, Mimsy. We can't afford that solid-gold anchor for Yacht #10. Maybe after the next election, Diddums."

 

[Stinkles]

What's the big deal?

The big deal is that everyone should stock up on guns, stop paying tax, move to the countryside and wait for charitable giving to solve poverty and homelessness.

 

[The Faceless Master]

bullshit, government housing and food stamps cover living and food.

20 grand is just money givin to you for popping out babies at the end of every year. its called the earned income tax credit

when i worked at a banki made 30k a year before taxes, so closer to 20k after everything was taken out. there were people who had no job, contributed to no federal taxes and had returns of over 15k because of earned income tax credit. i have personally seen this

so pop some kids out?

 

[Seth C]

The reality is, the largest disparity of tax burden is on the middle class. They pay in a much larger percentage of their income than do the fabulously wealthy. I believe the top 5% in this country earn/have some 90% of the wealth, but only contribute about 70% of the tax income. Meanwhile, the middle class has the next 5-7% of the wealth but contributes nearly 30% of the income tax.

It's set up this way for a reason. It is best for those in power to maintain a large middle class. So they prop up those who are less fortunate, and then do what they can to keep people in the middle class rather than allowing them to progress beyond it.

 

[The Faceless Master]

serioujsly, there should be a flat tax. and i don't mean a flat %age, i mean a flat dollar value. take the budget, divide by the amount of elegible taxpayers, that that's what everyone pays. that would be fair, everyone pays their own equal share.

 

[CharlieDigital]

littleorphanpunk: just three questions...

1) How old are you?

2) What was your/your household income in 2008 (if you don't mind me asking)?

3) What percentage of your income did you _actually_ pay to federal income taxes last year?

Also, I would suggest that you take a look at the poverty rate in the US. Do you think that those below the threshold of absolute poverty should pay federal income taxes?

 

[Stinkles]

The reality is, the largest disparity of tax burden is on the middle class. They pay in a much larger percentage of their income than do the fabulously wealthy. I believe the top 5% in this country earn/have some 90% of the wealth, but only contribute about 70% of the tax income. Meanwhile, the middle class has the next 5-7% of the wealth but contributes nearly 30% of the income tax.

It's set up this way for a reason. It is best for those in power to maintain a large middle class. So they prop up those who are less fortunate, and then do what they can to keep people in the middle class rather than allowing them to progress beyond it.

Hear hear. for the record, I do just fine thank you very much and see paying the reasonable taxes I do as a privilege. The distribution needs to be fair morally, not mathematically. The middle class is still the engine of the economy and should be treated as such. The top 1% should continue to not only pay their due, but quit breaking the law, or bending it, or relegislating it to avoid paying their due. The working poor need to earn an income that allows them to move into the middle class.

Rinse, repeat.

 

[demon]

serioujsly, there should be a flat tax. and i don't mean a flat %age, i mean a flat dollar value. take the budget, divide by the amount of elegible taxpayers, that that's what everyone pays. that would be fair, everyone pays their own equal share.

So someone making 19k a year should pay the same in taxes as the billionaires of the country?

That's fucked up, man.

 

[Evolved1]

The reality is, the largest disparity of tax burden is on the middle class. They pay in a much larger percentage of their income than do the fabulously wealthy. I believe the top 5% in this country earn/have some 90% of the wealth, but only contribute about 70% of the tax income. Meanwhile, the middle class has the next 5-7% of the wealth but contributes nearly 30% of the income tax.

It's set up this way for a reason. It is best for those in power to maintain a large middle class. So they prop up those who are less fortunate, and then do what they can to keep people in the middle class rather than allowing them to progress beyond it.

There is no such thing as class war... it's a myth.

Big conspiracy invented by those who are envious of the rich, but lack the proper work ethic to make their own fortune. Jealousy is all.

 

[Gallbaro]

Hear hear. for the record, I do just fine thank you very much and see paying the reasonable taxes I do as a privilege. The distribution needs to be fair morally, not mathematically. The middle class is still the engine of the economy and should be treated as such. The top 1% should continue to not only pay their due, but quit breaking the law, or bending it, or relegislating it to avoid paying their due. The working poor need to earn an income that allows them to move into the middle class.

Rinse, repeat.

:lol

The country has a hereditary ruling class now, due to dead people not wanting to be told what to do with their money! And if you go off of income the middle class is not the economic engine of the country.

 

[JayDubya]

Why sir, if you feel so priviledged to pay lots of taxes, know that you have the priviledge of cutting a large check to the treasury any time you want to.

 

[Stinkles]

Why sir, if you feel so priviledged to pay lots of taxes, know that you have the priviledge of cutting a large check to the treasury any time you want to.

I don't pay lots. I pay enough. I pay it because I choose to live in the USA, and I like roads, policemen, rule of law, etc.

If I didn't want to pay taxes, I would move to a country where they had none. My taxes pay for an immigration service and a government that allows me to do that.

I don't know if you've read Cormac McCarthy's "The Road," but I strongly believe the natural disaster so vaguely described, is two weeks of Liberterianism. I also believe not paying taxes causes Zombification.

 

[cntr]

Welp; JayDubya, the anarchist has arrived. Time to leave!

 

[Aselith]

serioujsly, there should be a flat tax. and i don't mean a flat %age, i mean a flat dollar value. take the budget, divide by the amount of elegible taxpayers, that that's what everyone pays. that would be fair, everyone pays their own equal share.

Yo littleorphanfunk I'm really happy you think the rich should get richer and imma let you finish but The Faceless Master has the worst economic policies of all time!


All time.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Why sir, if you feel so priviledged to pay lots of taxes, know that you have the priviledge of cutting a large check to the treasury any time you want to.

I don't mind paying my share and playing by the rules. If the rules said that my marginal tax rate were to be 3% higher based on my income and if doing so would put the country in a better standing, I'd pay it.

 

[yuna55]

:lol @ people coming up with some "fact" that the Earned Income Tax Credit = somewhere between $15K and $20K and you get more with each child

The max EITC for the past tax season was $4824, and a maximum of 2 children count toward the credit.

This year, the IRS will use up to 3 children to calculate the credit, and the max credit is $5657.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

But that's not really good though right... I mean... doesn't that mean something is seriously wrong?

Yes. Extreme income inequality and relative poverty are large problems in the US.

 

[JayDubya]

So someone making 19k a year should pay the same in taxes as the billionaires of the country?

That's fucked up, man.

Same percentage, yes, if we're going to be taxing a percentage of income as a means of taxation.

A compromise might be to not tax below a certain level of income (much like Friedman's NIT), but setting that level where 47% pay nothing is downright obscenity.

 

[CharlieDigital]

:lol @ people coming up with some "fact" that the Earned Income Tax Credit = somewhere between $15K and $20K and you get more with each child

The max EITC for the past tax season was $4824, and a maximum of 2 children count toward the credit.

This year, the IRS will use up to 3 children to calculate the credit, and the max credit is $5657.

Not true. Haven't you seen all those ghetto mama's with three babies rollin' in their Bentleys? I just know they're living the High Life off of my dime!

Damn these people for being below the poverty line! Damn them to Hell! If only I were at or below poverty, just think, I'd get free money from the government!

 

[Jonm1010]

:lol @ people coming up with some "fact" that the Earned Income Tax Credit = somewhere between $15K and $20K and you get more with each child

The max EITC for the past tax season was $4824, and a maximum of 2 children count toward the credit.

This year, the IRS will use up to 3 children to calculate the credit, and the max credit is $5657.

Liberal Gaffer, I reject your facts and substitute my own.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

youd also count on an equal number of masses to be willing to work too right

its not just the wealthy. anybody who earns a paycheck should be angered at teh social redistribution of wealth that occurs in teh US. you bust your ass at your job and get paid, why cant a person living off the system (excluding the hadicapped)

Social redistribution of wealth? you fuckin kidding me? As someone who grew up on welfare you know how unbelievably hard a lifestyle and embarrassing it is to receive public assistance?

 

[Stinkles]

Not true. Haven't you seen all those ghetto mama's with three babies rollin' in their Bentleys? I just know their living the High Life off of my dime!

They are feminists who chose that lifestyle and rejected proposals of marriage.

Social redistribution of wealth? you fuckin kidding me? As someone who grew up on welfare you know how unbelievably hard a lifestyle and embarrassing it is to receive public assistance?

You're arguing with a banking professional who doesn't understand the difference between 50% and 90%.

 

[ronito]

To all those playing little violins for the rich:

http://www.mytwodollars.com/2008/08/13/66-of-american-corporations-pay-zero-federal-income-tax/

66% of corporations don't pay any tax.

Nearly two-thirds of U.S. companies and 68% of foreign corporations do not pay federal income taxes, according to a congressional report released Tuesday.

The Government Accountability Office (GAO) examined samples of corporate tax returns filed between 1998 and 2005. In that time period, an annual average of 1.3 million U.S. companies and 39,000 foreign companies doing business in the United States paid no income taxes – despite having a combined $2.5 trillion in revenue.

Of course the numbers are funny numbers, but it cuts both ways.

 

[Byakuya769]

Well, I suppose that's true depending on the amount taken. But I'd rather not count on masses of people doing the "right thing." Hasn't really worked well in the past.

Especially when you note how charitable donations fell in faster than capital gains/incomes during the current down turn. These people who are oh so charitable will quickly limit that charity when their earnings drop.. makes it seem like there may be other reasons for that giving....

I wonder what those reasons could be......

 

[speculawyer]

Can't get blood from a stone.

 

[CharlieDigital]

The truth of the matter is like this:

Would it be great if I could pay no taxes? Why yes, that would be pretty awesome if I could take home all of the money I made and not be forced to contribute to Social Security, Medicare, or federal taxes. That would be great, really.

But then I start wondering: what would the US be like if that were to really happen? Would it truly be worth the trade off? Would it be a better, more just, and safer country? Would it be a country that would have a framework for economic development (laws, intellectual property protection, infrastructure, etc)? Would it be a country where my kids could get a good education and grow up with nearly unlimited opportunities and potential? Would it be a country where innovation would be fostered and discoveries would be made?

I really don't think so. Somehow, I think that it wouldn't turn out like that.

I think a world where we didn't pay taxes would be a pretty shitty world for most of us and a really great world for a few. And even then, those few would become an increasingly small slice of the population as, without the services provided by the government (many of which they don't benefit from directly), they wouldn't be able to make the kind of money they make (or keep it for that matter).

 

[scorcho]

what's the percentage of national or multi-national corporations that pay no income tax?

 

[Stinkles]

The truth of the matter is like this:

Would it be great if I could pay no taxes? Why yes, that would be pretty awesome if I could take home all of the money I made and not be forced to contribute to Social Security, Medicare, or federal taxes. That would be great, really.

But then I start wondering: what would the US be like if that were to really happen? Would it truly be worth the trade off? Would it be a better, more just, and safer country? Would it be a country that would have a framework for economic development? Would it be a country where my kids could get a good education and grow up with nearly unlimited opportunities and potential? Would it be a country where innovation would be fostered and discoveries would be made?

I really don't think so.

I think a world where we didn't pay taxes would be a pretty shitty world for most of us and a really great world for a few. And even then, those few would become an increasingly small slice of the population as, without the services provided by the government (many of which they don't benefit from directly), they wouldn't be able to make the kind of money they make (or keep it for that matter).

John Galt will buy us all houses.

 

[WedgeX]

The obvious solution is for employers, making billions of dollars and shouldering the tax burden, to pay their employees more. Then the employees would have to pay all the taxes, and the employers wouldn't feel so overburdened.

Simple.

 

[Evolved1]

what's the percentage of national or multi-national corporations that pay no income tax?

To all those playing little violins for the rich:

http://www.mytwodollars.com/2008/08/13/66-of-american-corporations-pay-zero-federal-income-tax/

66% of corporations don't pay any tax.


Of course the numbers are funny numbers, but it cuts both ways.

Ronito a few posts up...

 

[ronito]

Ronito a few posts up...

It's late and it's a well known fact I'm a moron.

 

[scorcho]

Ronito a few posts up...

thanks. great minds think alike!

 

[Princess Carl]

the sad thing is is that nothing is ever going to change. our congress has been corrupted by money. our own treasury is run and influenced by the top banks and insurance companies in the us. And they make sure that everything is done to let them off the hook.

Our government is corrupt to the very core, with very good people fighting a losing battle. And most americans actually believe the crap they call policy. Fucking atrocious.

 

[gdt]

JayDubya (or anyone really), I have a question.

Keep in mind I not really politically/government savvy, but just curious.

Your (I gather) ideal America/country would be one where the government collects no taxes. So, how would the government/states pay for the police, postoffice, Armed Services, etc etc etc so on and so forth?

Or would you prefer that none of those services existed except at the behest of private funding?

And for the poorer members of the country (not talking about the "abusers"), you would prefer them not to get any kind of assistance? At all?

Not looking for an argument, just trying to understand your position.

 

[Princess Carl]

JayDubya (or anyone really), I have a question.

Keep in mind I not really politically/government savvy, but just curious.

Your (I gather) ideal America/country would be one where the government collects no taxes. So, how would the government/states pay for the police, postoffice, Armed Services, etc etc etc so on and so forth?

Or would you prefer that none of those services existed except at the behest of private funding?

And for the poorer members of the country (not talking about the "abusers"), you would prefer them not to get any kind of assistance? At all?

Not looking for an argument, just trying to understand your position.

not gonna happen. Thats the kinda trap people against government option health care like to stay away from. im sure hes not going to fall for it

 

[Pseudo_Sam]

That's the responsibility that comes with living in a country that allows them to do that, own an estate in the Hamptons and have several Lamborghinis while people like you defend them as victims.

Some of them are nice people who on top of that, can afford to give massive amounts to charity that aren't part of a carefully structured deduction.

Some of them are douchebags with twenty illegal immigrants on minimum wage taking care of their extensive properties.

Meanwhile they often pay a lower percentage of said massive income than middle class folks.

It's the shittiest argument ever and you should be ashamed of typing it. If you're in the top 1%, it's not a burden, it's a privilege.

Give me a fucking break. I'm not rich - in fact, I'm pretty goddamn poor. College does that to a guy. But even I can see what a crock of shit that is. If I were rich, I'd be pissed as hell about my money's redistribution. It's not about the value of the money, or how much I would still have afterwards, it's the basic concepts of freedom and capitalism. It's my fucking money.

That's the responsibility that comes with living in a country that allows them to do that

What makes you think the rich have any "responsibility" to the middle and lower classes? Fucking bullshit.

Some of them are douchebags with twenty illegal immigrants on minimum wage taking care of their extensive properties.

It doesn't matter if they're shitty people or not. It's still their money. Welcome to America, a country built on the principle that people can choose to live their lives as they please and not have to worry about the government or anyone else taking away their shit.

I also enjoy how you've deduced that hiring illegal immigrants reflects poorly on a person. Do you realize how goddamed hard those people work to make a living? I'd hire any one of them over a group of legal contractors any day - not only is it cheaper, but I would feel better about where my money is going.

It's the shittiest argument ever and you should be ashamed of typing it

tl;dr: Income tax is BS

 

[yuna55]

Liberal Gaffer, I reject your facts and substitute my own.

Except for my facts come from www.irs.gov, not from some buddy at work or some internet gaming forum.

What do you do for a living? Because I prepare tax returns for low income individuals. I see and experience this complete and utter clusterfuck on a daily basis. I see people that falsely claim the perfect amount of money and kids to get the maximum amount of EITC on a regular basis. If I don't do my job right, I could be severely fined or imprisoned for some jackoff trying to screw the government and taxpayers just to get a few grand.

Stating the facts does not mean I agree with the principles behind them.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Being on the more disadvantaged side of the financial scale for families for a good chunk of my life, income tax time was more a reprieve than some reward. Tough life, you simply can't eat what you want to, just what you have to a lot of times.

Cute for some people thinking as if it was the easy life by having just kids. I just came from a family of only 4 and it was tough living month to month at times, even with my father working full time it wasn't enough, it got to the point my mother had to have 2 jobs to help raise me and my sister.

You would think it was easy. Wealth-fare, full stamps...general assistance ...just to make it by? That lifestyle?

Go to hell.

 

[bill0527]

but its the top 1% of americas job to foot 50% of the bill.

lol

what pisses me off more than anything is when people pay no income taxes and yet still get tax returns because of EITC at the end of the year. why work when i can have 6 kids and get 20 grand tax free every year

The Earned Income Credit is the biggest fucking pile of bullshit ever heaped on taxpayers.

What it basically does is pay deadbeats to sit around and make babies and get paid for it. Usually to the tune of $2500-$4800 per year.

What my ex-wife does, is get herself a part-time job, usually for 2-3 months out of the year. She makes just enough money to file taxes. Her annual income usually is around $7000-$10,0000 per year. She pays very little, if any taxes because she is considered 'low income'. She spits out a kid every year or two, all from different men and gets a child support check from each of them, on top of this huge fucking tax credit per child and brings home an income tax refund of $7500 or more.

As Obama would say, this is called "gaming the system", and most low-income people that I know do this - and more, in order to cash in from the federal government and do very little actual work. They are the people who will spend their entire lives taking from the system and not doing anything to improve themselves, or become contributors.

 

[Princess Carl]

Income tax is BS

are you a Christian? Do you believe in what is morally right?

if so, you are a hypocrite.

 

[quilter46761]

...it's the basic concepts of freedom and capitalism. It's my fucking money.

But it's not, and if it was - that is, if income taxes were abolished - you would have no money at all as the whole system would fall apart.

 

[zoku88]

Give me a fucking break. I'm not rich - in fact, I'm pretty goddamn poor. College does that to a guy.

Stopped here.

If you are "poor", then you most likely were able to get gov't assistance.

If you were able to go to college with your own money, then no, you must not be poor... or really even that close.

 

[Fei]

Welcome to America, a country built on the principle that people can choose to live their lives as they please and not have to worry about the government or anyone else taking away their shit.

You might want to check your history about what America was built on.

 

[JayDubya]

JayDubya (or anyone really), I have a question.

Your (I gather) ideal America/country would be one where the government collects no taxes. So, how would the government/states pay for the police, postoffice, Armed Services, etc etc etc so on and so forth?

You gather incorrectly, though I think the current method of taxation sucks and the level of taxation is too high.

Also, police and military are bad examples. The night watchman is the main value of government, and the role it should focus on.

And for the poorer members of the country (not talking about the "abusers"), you would prefer them not to get any kind of assistance? At all?

I would prefer them to get only voluntary assistance.

 

[MedHead]

It seems disingenuous of some here to be making these broad statements of who should shoulder the burden of the country, because unless those who are making these statements are in the same financial bracket as the rich they are referencing, then they serve to benefit from the tax returns. It's really easy to deal with a sacrifice of lifestyle when one doesn't have to directly experience the sacrifice.

I know I'll never be as rich as the top bracket of earners in the US, and I don't think I care to ever get that wealthy. I don't want to take their money just so I can have more. That's not fair. They earned the money, hopefully in a legal manner (and for the sake of my argument, I am assuming they did). Why should I be awarded for not succeeding as they did? I shouldn't bother working, then.

Yes, even with heavy taxes, the rich will still enjoy a far more materialistic and wealthy lifestyle than I ever will. It's not my right to take their money for my benefit: that's their money, and they earned it. If they so choose to do so, they may give me money out of their own free will, above what it would take for a government and country to operate, but I don't ever want the government requiring that charity through unfair tax rates.

 

[Stinkles]

What makes you think the rich have any "responsibility" to the middle and lower classes? Fucking bullshit.

Morality and an understanding of how Capitalism works.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

This country is a complete joke at this point

 

[Princess Carl]

It seems disingenuous of some here to be making these broad statements of who should shoulder the burden of the country, because unless those who are making these statements are in the same financial bracket as the rich they are referencing, then they serve to benefit from the tax returns. It's really easy to deal with a sacrifice of lifestyle when one doesn't have to directly experience the sacrifice.

I know I'll never be as rich as the top bracket of earners in the US, and I don't think I care to ever get that wealthy. I don't want to take their money just so I can have more. That's not fair. They earned the money, hopefully in a legal manner (and for the sake of my argument, I am assuming they did). Why should I be awarded for not succeeding as they did? I shouldn't bother working, then.

Yes, even with heavy taxes, the rich will still enjoy a far more materialistic and wealthy lifestyle than I ever will. It's not my right to take their money for my benefit: that's their money, and they earned it. If they so choose to do so, they may give me money out of their own free will, above what it would take for a government and country to operate, but I don't ever want the government requiring that charity through unfair tax rates.

The problem is is that most of the top 1% of the wealthy have achieved so through illegal means. These are the same people that influence our governing body to give them every break in the book. Whether it be tax breaks, loopholed mortgages and loans, or just plain highway robbery.

yes, in theory, i like what you are saying. But in reality, its not fair.