Support NeoGAF

[HerrPalomar]

That's a bit of an odd statement considering that it's pretty much universally women that perform FGM. True, it's part of a male-driven misogynist tradition and cultural view, but the women are absolutely not hapless victims in this either - they're victim and perpetrator both. It boggles the mind of people who haven't grown up in that kind of environment but, quite simply, culture is an incredibly powerful thing.

I did not know that. Thanks for explaining the background to me!

 

[JP_]

People that perform such horrible acts just do not fit into a western society. The poor woman are welcome, but sadly the guys will come too and bring their medieval worldview with them

https://www.unicef.org/media/files/FGMC_2016_brochure_final_UNICEF_SPREAD(2).pdf

In many of these countries, women support FGM more than men.

 

[99Luffy]

An arm or leg amputation is also a procedure that doctors perform for certain medical issues.

So you go around calling handicap people mutilated?

Cause that would be a piece of shit thing to do.

 

[Funky Papa]

PSA: Stop making this about male circumcision and quit the stupid comparisons while you still can. This is not the thread for that.

I won't repeat this.

 

[Dangansona]

I guess I can't comprehend what is going on and what the reasoning for it is after reading the first couple of pages. I honestly wasn't familiar with the concept before this post.

 

[HerrPalomar]

So you go around calling handicap people mutilated?

Cause that would be a piece of shit thing to do.

No?

But doctor are allowed to basically make somebody disabled if it necessary for medical reasons. I just find the argument funny that if surgeons are allowed to do it, it can't be so bad.

EDIT: Sry for derailing the thread.

 

[Merino]

From what I have seen, the tradition is typically not carried over to the next generation once they reach the west, though. Part of it is because of practicality: they typically lose the members of the communities that provided the "expertise" to continue the practice. But I also think it's because they understand how mutilating it is. Many are (understandably) worried about child birth, and pretty much all will remember how painful it makes sexual relations. It doesn't take a whole lot of reinforcement from their new host countries to make them conclude that it truly is wrong, especially if it's followed by assurances that the state will protect them from being forced to have it inflicted on their daughters.

Actually I think the biggest reason why the practice isn't carried over to the next generation in the west is because in the west it is taken out of the context of power and identity structures that uphold the practice in their traditional communities.

When in Africa it is a means for a girl to become accepted as an adult because it confirms to the identity of the more powerful group of elderly woman whom have themselves become culturally marked by it. In the west however this girl does not need to conform to this identity in order to be accepted by more powerful groups she needs to rely on for her survival.

 

[Fritz]

Waris Dirie's Book has been a bestseller in Germany and the issue has seen much exposure over here ever since. It's good that the governments pushes the issue as well. It's a horrific practice

 

[hurricanes]

PSA: Stop making this about male circumcision and quit the stupid comparisons while you still can. This is not the thread for that.

I won't repeat this.

Thank you sir!

As someone who knows a victim and heard first hand experience of how horrible this practice is, I am beyond disgusted that people try to compare it to male circumcision and turn the thread into "how about men?!"

People who did/try to do this to their daughter should be jailed and deport.

 

[bionic77]

I Just to make sure since, reading the thread I have the feeling some of you understand it wrong (or it was bad translated).

The numbers in this study are not cases of FGM performed IN Germany, its women with FGM currently living in Germany. Most of the cases are from immigrants/refugees that arrived here and that need help.
I'm not saying that this makes these numbers somehow better or that there are zero cases here (you can never fully control what people do) and nothing has to be done, especially preemptive and educative (not sure if that's the correct word).

Most cases in the study are preexisting or have been performed on 'vacation' outside the reach of German jurisdiction since of course it is illegal (max 15 years/ min 1 year) and prosecuted here. (And it's of course also illegal when it is done on said 'vacation' and they return to Germany, but that doesn't help the child)

One step that's done is, that starting this year, the police is allowed to confiscate the passport of a child / its parents to stop them leaving the country, if there is a suspicion that a child won't return unharmed from a 'vacation'.
And although this might sound cynical, when they can't do it abroad and try to do it here, the police at least can prosecute it easier and hopefully prevent as many cases as possible.

This actually makes me feel somewhat better.

I had assumed this was happening in Germany. Still horrible for those women though.

from wiki

Jesus Christ at a barber doing that shit. Not even getting to the part of not sterilizing the equipment.

 

[Nivash]

Actually I think the biggest reason why the practice isn't carried over to the next generation in the west is because in the west it is taken out of the context of power and identity structures that uphold the practice in their traditional communities.

When in Africa it is a means for a girl to become accepted as an adult because it confirms to the identity of the more powerful group of elderly woman whom have themselves become culturally marked by it. In the west however this girl does not need to conform to this identity in order to be accepted by more powerful groups she needs to rely on for her survival.

That's a good point, thank you for your comment. I started looking through the UNICEF 2013 report after I posted and it did emphasise how important FGM is for personhood and becoming an adult in a lot of those communities. It mentioned how a woman might even be relegated to a form of perpetual childhood if she isn't mutilated. It actually mentioned that urban women are less likely to continue the cycle of abuse because she can see how women are allowed to live full lives even without mutilation, something that should become even more amplified in the west.

It's a really good read actually.

http://data.unicef.org/resources/fe...istical-overview-exploration-dynamics-change/

 

[RoadHazard]

Umm male circumcision is a procedure that docters perform for certain medical issues.

Umm no it's not. Sometimes it is, but the vast majority of circumcisions are obviously made for cultural/traditional/religious reasons. Many/most Americans are circumcised, very few Swedes are. This difference is not due to Americans having more medical issues with their junk. Just like with FGM.

EDIT:

PSA: Stop making this about male circumcision and quit the stupid comparisons while you still can. This is not the thread for that.

I won't repeat this.

Sure, the thread is not about that, but why is it a stupid comparison? Both constitute genital mutilation and child abuse (except when it's medically motivated, of course) and both should be banned (although the female variety is arguably significantly worse). It's pretty natural that the discussion also comes to include the male equivalent, I think.

But ok, enough about this.

 

[EdwardTeach]

Goddamn, cutting off parts genitalia for any purpose is really fucked up....


I wonder whats the stats on the male equivalent?

Circumcision is not common in Europe apart from Jews and Muslims.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

2/10 I guess? Why are we ranking badness?

Circumcision is done for hygenic reasons. You could (correctly) argue that it's no longer necessary, but at its roots it provides an actual benefit and is done for practical purposes.

Female genital mutilation is done for the express purpose of making sex painful for women so they don't like it.

I don't know why you'd think these are remotely comparable.

If there were any hygenic reasons to perform circumcision and it prevented infections in any way then evolution would have made sure to remove such a risk.
Circumcision is an ancient tradition that old and skewed medical studies supported the same way they supported administering electroshock, torturing and mutilating the brains of mentally ill patients, along with countless terrible practices.

FGM is pure horror. That said, ostracising people from places where it's practiced or reducing our perception of their whole existence to this practice isn't going to solve the problem. Especially when accompanied by ignorance of the origin of said practice. (Erithrea is a Christian majority country, Ethiopia is too, Sudan has a large share of non Abrahamic beliefs, and so on, not all the evil in the world comes from Muslims)

 

[All Possible Ways]

This is such a vile and abhorrent practice and even though I am male, reading the descriptions makes me wince and sends chills down my spine. Yet, it must be very difficult to change something that is so ingrained in the culture, that it is seen as a part of the rituals necessary to become an adult. I hope at least that the young people who immigrated, and who are then raised in a different culture, may not propagate this practice on to their children.

 

[verbatimo]

That's a bit of an odd statement considering that it's pretty much universally women that perform FGM. True, it's part of a male-driven misogynist tradition and cultural view, but the women are absolutely not hapless victims in this either - they're victim and perpetrator both. It boggles the mind of people who haven't grown up in that kind of environment but, quite simply, culture is an incredibly powerful thing.

From what I have seen, the tradition is typically not carried over to the next generation once they reach the west, though. Part of it is because of practicality: they typically lose the members of the communities that provided the "expertise" to continue the practice. But I also think it's because they understand how mutilating it is. Many are (understandably) worried about child birth, and pretty much all will remember how painful it makes sexual relations. It doesn't take a whole lot of reinforcement from their new host countries to make them conclude that it truly is wrong, especially if it's followed by assurances that the state will protect them from being forced to have it inflicted on their daughters.

I not so optimistic. This was exposed couple of years ago.

FGM in Sweden: School where every single girl in one class underwent procedure
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...lass-underwent-procedure-exposed-9552854.html

 

[Chuckie]

Especially when accompanied by ignorance of the origin of said practice. (Erithrea is a Christian majority country, Ethiopia is too, Sudan has a large share of non Abrahamic beliefs, and so on, not all the evil in the world comes from Muslims)

The origin is cultural and it is indeed a problem in more than one religion. However it has spread to countries like Indonesia because of Sunni Islam.

The data from Iraq and preliminary reports from other parts of the Middle East and Asia point to a relationship between the practice and specific law schools within Sunni Islam. The four main law schools – Shafi’i, Hanbali, Maliki and Hanafi – have been dominant in different areas of the Muslim world. They differ in their interpretations of the teachings and provisions of Islamic law and guidance. Whereas the Hanafis do not regard female circumcision as “sunnah”, the practice is recommended on religious grounds by the Maliki and Hanbali law schools and is considered obligatory by the Shafi’i school.

 

[SchrodingerC]

Honest question incoming.

While the end result may be very different, is there evidence that the root cause is different? I.e is it possible that FGM was started for an equivalent reason to male circumcision, and the way that female sexual sensation is affected wasn't the aim, but an unintended effect?

(I think others have explained this, but I'll a crack at it.)

Kinda, but it really depends on the culture practicing FGM. Unlike MC, FGM doesn't have religious roots, it's primarily a gender inequality problem.

Some African cultures uses FGM as a rite of womanhood, while others(middle eastern for example) used it to keep girls 'Pure' for their eventual marriages. In some societies, a virgin is highly prized and can potentially make or break marriage deals; FGM was their safeguard against a girl possibly screwing up her family's plan.

Hygienic reasons, as stated for MC, doesn't seem to be one of the reasons for FGM. Well, besides some weird old myths, like the clit impeding a baby's birth. There are no health benefits from FGM.
More info here:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

Make no mistake, even though both practices have some similar roots(sexual control), modern implementation far separates them. MC these days is used for hygiene and cosmetic reasons, but FGM's sole intention is to control a woman's sexuality.

Edit: whoops, just noticed Funky's warning.

 

[CharminUltra]

Horrible, terrible, appalling, etc.

Not enough words, really.

 

[cm osi]

You're trolling, right? Nothing beats law.

This practice is horrific and messed up.

law is heavily influenced by culture because culture is almost set in stone and change in the long time period, while laws can change pretty fast. every law we have are pretty much a derivate of the culture that made them

 

[Gun Animal]

You don't have a point, got it.

Fighting for the right for women to not have FGM inflicted on them is now just as bad as supporting it? Fuck right off.

Edit: and if you are being deliberately obtuse I do not support non medical required circumcision either. I think we get by ok without it here in the UK!

Sorry for the late response. You said that circumcision is not comparable because it is done for hygienic reasons and not to limit pleasure. I've demonstrated this point as false multiple times in this thread, specifically noting the exhaustive evidence that circumcision was introduced to American Gentiles as a means of preventing masturbation. It is comparable. To say otherwise is to deny history.

Can y'all make a thread about circumcision and take this discussion here? Can we just have one thread about women's issues where we don't discuss penises? Pretty please?

FGM is a multi-faceted issue, which can be related to many spheres of interest and concern to the western perspective. The fact that you insist on framing it exclusively as a Woman's Issue (as opposed to framing it as an issue of Immigration, sexual autonomy, child/infant advocacy, critical perspectives on islam, the use of torture, etc) is highly suspicious. Indeed, isn't your framing of the issue very trans-exclusionary? Presumably FGM is an issue for men with vaginas just as much as Circumcision is an issue for women with penises, yes? If anything feel free to frame this as a Vagina's Issue.

Or, you know, the responsibility of the people doing these terrible things? And every fucker that participates in it should be thrown in jail or kicked out of the country.

I don't see how it is Germany's responsibility to educate people in not abusing your kids.


What I'd want is for the governments there to call this barbaric practice out and condemn it every chance they get. This is not about "western values" unless "non-western values" (whatever that is) means being OK with abuse and torture.

Indeed, being OK with abuse and torture would itself be just as frequently a western value, after all.

Spoiler

If we can't compare FGM to Circumcision, can we compare it to Enhanced Interrogation?