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6+ Drug Manufacturers Issue Internal Alerts About Michael Moore
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Foreign Jackass
Member
Moore is a big hairy beast without a brain or conscience. He makes me sad I'm a liberal. Him having paid for hidden cameras in offices wouldn't be a surprise to me.
He'll get all the footage he needs and more. There are always disgruntled employees and/or people out to make some money, no matter what the company in question.
In fact, I'm sure Moore couldn't be happier with this news, as it is affording him the sort of free PR that propelled Fahrenheit 9/11 so far up the charts.
In fact, I'm sure Moore couldn't be happier with this news, as it is affording him the sort of free PR that propelled Fahrenheit 9/11 so far up the charts.
Apharmd Battler
Member
I know Mr. Moore is a very controversial figure but I for one hope he does a good job with this documentary. I work in this business and I think the public would be VERY interested to know what goes on behind the scenes at all levels of this industry. I'm mean from formulation to pricing, the whole gambit. I someitmes get disgusted at the level of waste, politics, incompetance, and overall lack of disregards for the customers.
I should be very careful, since post like this could be traced back to me which would not be a good converstion with my management. But if people only knew of some of things that go on at some of these so called reputable companies, you'd be like there's no way you can run a business like that. Too bad many people won't even bother to see this because of Mr. Moores's agenda and personal polictics, but if you guys even knew 5% of what goes on behind the scenes you'd be in an uproar. I just hope he does a good job abd presents facts in a neutral manner. Becuase believe me, he won't have to dig far to find a lot of questionable issues. Now to enroll in the FBI witness protection program.
Gee, I wonder what memo will be in my inbox when I return from the holidays? <saracasm>
I should be very careful, since post like this could be traced back to me which would not be a good converstion with my management. But if people only knew of some of things that go on at some of these so called reputable companies, you'd be like there's no way you can run a business like that. Too bad many people won't even bother to see this because of Mr. Moores's agenda and personal polictics, but if you guys even knew 5% of what goes on behind the scenes you'd be in an uproar. I just hope he does a good job abd presents facts in a neutral manner. Becuase believe me, he won't have to dig far to find a lot of questionable issues. Now to enroll in the FBI witness protection program.
Gee, I wonder what memo will be in my inbox when I return from the holidays? <saracasm>
This is exactly why I hope Moore does this one "right" and leaves the manipulation crap out. The pharmaceutical industry really needs some exposure and this could be a nice catalyst if done right.Apharmd Battler said:I know Mr. Moore is a very controversial figure but I for one hope he does a good job with this documentary. I work in this business and I think the public would be VERY interested to know what goes on behind the scenes at all levels of this industry. I'm mean from formulation to pricing, the whole gambit. I someitmes get disgusted at the level of waste, politics, incompetance, and overall lack of disregards for the customers.
I should be very careful, since post like this could be traced back to me which would not be a good converstion with my management. But if people only knew of some of things that go on at some of these so called reputable companies, you'd be like there's no way you can run a business like that. Too bad many people won't even bother to see this because of Mr. Moores's agenda and personal polictics, but if you guys even knew 5% of what goes on behind the scenes you'd be in an uproar. I just hope he does a good job abd presents facts in a neutral manner. Becuase believe me, he won't have to dig far to find a lot of questionable issues. Now to enroll in the FBI witness protection program.
Gee, I wonder what memo will be in my inbox when I return from the holidays? <saracasm>
Apharmd Battler
Member
human5892 said:
There have been days where I just want to walk out and quit. Because sometimes practical science and business conflict. Sometimes people are scared to do the right thing because nobody wants their name attached to a lot of material that around million dollars in sales that has to be scrapped because someone made a simple mistake. Or try being on the firing line when your someone is trying to exercise loopholes to try and save this material, when you know it's bad and should be scrapped. Or being the sales guy that just got some info on some interesting side effects of one of your products, but the physician you're selling to has no idea. Like I said, there are a lot of things that make you go HMMMM. I hope Mr. Moore does a good job, and I hope people check this out. The whole industry is very interesting to say the least. My $0.02.....
OK, stay on subject and try not to dog Mr. Moore in this thread too much. The only reason I'm offering input is to say, the drug industry need to be under the microscope. NOt everything they do is bad, and they do a heck of a lot of good, but the way the machine works is not as simplistic as you might think.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Michael Moore may be a moron, but in the current political climate he is a needed moron.
Just my two cents.
Just my two cents.
Foreign Jackass
Member
He has improved a little, but Fahrenheit is still full of lies and half-truths, which is kinda annoying, since there was so many TRUE bad things he could have said about Bush that might have been less sensationalistic, but at least would have been credible and useful to the debate.
That bit about the % of america owned by saudis is complete craziness, for one.
That bit about the % of america owned by saudis is complete craziness, for one.
Good to know.belgurdo said:
F
Folder
Unconfirmed Member
Agreed.Funky Papa said:
There's also the fact the US medicare industry is shocking, lining its pockets at the expense of normal Americans. There have been no antibiotics developed for 20 years. In the same time there has been thousands of daily anxiety/panic/depression drugs released. Why make something poeple need once every two years when you can make something addictive that must be taken every day?
I have had personal experience of how Roche's Klonopin can fuck up a life. It makes me very sad - I hope Moore does the issue justice.
Phoenix said:So is the fast food, porn, home building, insurance, video game, software development, sporting, grocery, news, music making, and film making
...somebody already did a fast food movie.
As for Moore's selectiveness being a problem? What else is new? As long as the story gets out there to the point that people at least start to actively take a LOOK at the health care industry's problems I applaud it.
Phoenix said:So is the fast food, porn, home building, insurance, video game, software development, sporting, grocery, news, music making, and film making
Uhm, so you don't think the arms and pharmaceutical industries may be just a little bit more important than the ones you mentioned?
Damn that Michael Moore and his selectiveness!
Phoenix
Member
DarienA said:
A fox style "when drug companies attack" movie as balanced as his other films does not do anyone a great service. If he were doing an evaluation like the fast food movie "supersize me" then I'd be all for it, however Moore isn't seeking to inform - he is seeking to incite.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I'd put healthcare right up there as something to be discussed. ALthough I might put the environment higher.
If Moore does nothing but get people's attention, it will be worth it. We've got nearly 3rd world levels of healthcare and we pay more than any other nation. It's nuts.
If Moore does nothing but get people's attention, it will be worth it. We've got nearly 3rd world levels of healthcare and we pay more than any other nation. It's nuts.
Phoenix
Member
Minotauro said:
No I don't. If you want to do some 'important service', investigate the FDA. Important is very relative. As a soon to be parent I could give a rats ass about the pharm. industry in particular and more concerned with daycare, insurance, schools, food prep, home building (buying another house), etc.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Phoenix said:
Given what I know about the industry, yes.
I'll need to get stats-- but by many, many measures* we rate in the tail end of industrialized nations. ANd I hope you aren't even going to debate that our health-care costs are the highest.
* Two off the top of my head where I know we lag-- infant mortality and number of people with limited access to healthcare. There are more.
Phoenix said:
Next? Oh wait I forget... you're only concerned about you.. not how the industry is fucking over those who don't have low copays, or no insurance at all. I suppose you'll have that same job for the next 18 years? I suppose you copay will stay the same as well? I suppose your company won't decide that their current plan is just charging them too much and shop around for a new insurance carrier? Cause insurance carriers never raise the amt the charge the company's....
Nyah stuff like that never happens.
Way to have a wide open view of the situation... Next.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Phoenix: You mention insurance-- that's a huge chunk of the cost I'm talking about.
I'm not talking about co-pays, either-- I'm talking about what businesses end up spending to support those plans, and what they get in return.
I'm not talking about co-pays, either-- I'm talking about what businesses end up spending to support those plans, and what they get in return.
Phoenix said:
You do realize that I was responding directly to the industries you listed in your original post, right? With the exception of insurance, you just came up with a new list and said those were more important. While I still disagree, your response was didn't address my comment.
Plus, what exactly would a movie about daycares entail? Sure, there are probably some daycare employees who mistreat children and whatnot but it's not like the entire industry itself is corrupt. Aside from insurance, I think you could make this argument in regards to any of the industries you mentioned. Film is a medium designed to be seen by millions of people. Do you really think it makes sense to make a movie about a few isolated malicious daycare or food preparation employees?
WasabiKing
Member
Apharmd Battler said:
Don't worry, your IP address is safe with me!
Anyway, I want to see a documentary like this, cause it's such a big issue that many are so uneducated about. I actually have a few friends in the pharmaceutical business, so I know the stories told over several dirty martinis.
We need this movie, and we need it now.
Given that my out-of-pocket health care costs at my "nice, stable corporate job" have gone up three times in five years (and I know a lot of other people in the same situation), and given that health care costs have been THE issue in several high-profile labor disputes in the last couple of years (doesn't anyone remember the Southern California supermarket strike?), we HAVE to figure out what the fuck we're doing with our healthcare system...and that includes the FDA, the pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, HMOs, and individual doctors. Everyone acts like the cost of health care is some external, immutable factor...why IS that? "Oh, sorry, your co-pay is going up, but that's because it's gotten more expensive for both of us," etc. It's about time that someone at least tries to address some root cause issues.
I can understand the sentiments behind "I hope he makes this movie RIGHT" to some extent -- you would like an absolutely unassailable set of evidence that would somehow escape any backlash from the people under the microscope that might weaken his thesis in the eyes of the public. With that being said, I don't think that his goal is to present a list of facts -- he's making a MOVIE. A documentary has an angle on its topic, and his goal is always to get people to investigate and act on their own -- if they are enraged by what they see, so much the better, since anger is a good motivator. It's not "manipulation" -- it's Filmmaking 101. His secondary goal is to entertain people enough that his movie will make money so he can continue in his line of work. I think his films do an excellent job on both counts.
As for the tired old Michael Moore attacks, be warned that I'm sick of hearing about his weight. As soon as that becomes relevant to anything, I'll let you know. Until then, I'd be really careful throwing that around.
Given that my out-of-pocket health care costs at my "nice, stable corporate job" have gone up three times in five years (and I know a lot of other people in the same situation), and given that health care costs have been THE issue in several high-profile labor disputes in the last couple of years (doesn't anyone remember the Southern California supermarket strike?), we HAVE to figure out what the fuck we're doing with our healthcare system...and that includes the FDA, the pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, HMOs, and individual doctors. Everyone acts like the cost of health care is some external, immutable factor...why IS that? "Oh, sorry, your co-pay is going up, but that's because it's gotten more expensive for both of us," etc. It's about time that someone at least tries to address some root cause issues.
I can understand the sentiments behind "I hope he makes this movie RIGHT" to some extent -- you would like an absolutely unassailable set of evidence that would somehow escape any backlash from the people under the microscope that might weaken his thesis in the eyes of the public. With that being said, I don't think that his goal is to present a list of facts -- he's making a MOVIE. A documentary has an angle on its topic, and his goal is always to get people to investigate and act on their own -- if they are enraged by what they see, so much the better, since anger is a good motivator. It's not "manipulation" -- it's Filmmaking 101. His secondary goal is to entertain people enough that his movie will make money so he can continue in his line of work. I think his films do an excellent job on both counts.
As for the tired old Michael Moore attacks, be warned that I'm sick of hearing about his weight. As soon as that becomes relevant to anything, I'll let you know. Until then, I'd be really careful throwing that around.
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
DarienA said:
Pretty much. What is the problem with that?
Phoenix
Member
Minotauro said:
Parent yet? Day care costs roughly $160-$200 a WEEK, day care centers pack children into many day care centers like cattle to capitalize on that. The state and government regulations actually permit a negligent number of children to be cared for by people who have taken several 8 hour courses and a CPR class. Day care centers aren't required to have any education standards and many involve simply sitting children in from of a TV all day. Companies donate things to the day care community in the form of assistance that is best described as advertisements.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Are you arguing for socializing daycare? Brrrrr......
I do my own research into the place, and am happy with that.
<---- New father of 2-month-old
Oh, Phoenix-- beware some of the scare tactics applied to all new parents. Not about daycare specifically, but about everything.
I do my own research into the place, and am happy with that.
<---- New father of 2-month-old
Oh, Phoenix-- beware some of the scare tactics applied to all new parents. Not about daycare specifically, but about everything.
Phoenix
Member
-jinx- said:
This is my point. If its going to be useful, the evidence can't be the same as it was with F. 9/11 where people are, fairly easily, showing how biased it was. Otherwise you might as well not make a documentary. Supersize Me was what I call an excellent documentary. THey took a side "eating fast food all the time is dangerous for your health" and they pursued this in a fair AND entertaining way. You could draw conclusions from this - the same isn't true of either of Moore's other films. It riled people up, gave them some FUD, and people spend more time debating the films merit.
Phoenix
Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
Yeah I'm talking about it from the perspective of what is actually considered a legal day care center. My wife and I were putting together a business plan to open one when we got the news that she was pregnant. What we found was actually legal and allowable was shocking and incredibly disturbing. While there is a lot of regulation about the day care world, it is paying 'lip service' to the day care industry. The teacher:child ratio was particularly scary.
Phoenix said:
2005 resolution, telling people to fuck off more....
<rubs hands>
I can't wait for the new year!
On a more serious note, how was what I said not important enough to be considered relevant?
Oh wait... Moore should contact YOU to see what's relevant to YOU. Ah I got ya... I didn't understand your beef is that this particular documentary doesn't help you at all... so it should be changed... silly me.... I'm sorry I obviously misunderstood what we were talking about...
-jinx- said:
Damn straight. You could put your back out.
(sorry)
As always, I think sticking to the facts is important. Just look at his previous efforts - people who have an interest in ignoring what he has to say (hello, Ripclawe) will just pick on one or two weaknesses in the case and use that as an excuse for throwing the rest out, and the weak-minded will believe them. The more watertight the evidence the documentary is based on and the less cheap tricks it uses to get its point across (I'm thinking of BfC particularly here) the better.
America does have the best healthcare in the world. It is one of the worst in terms of access to healthcare, but if you have insurance, you're in much better hands here than you are in say Europe. If I were sick, there's nowhere else I'd want to be.
One of the most confusing concepts is life expectancy. It's not that high in the US. In 2001, the life expectancy was 77.2 years. But wait a second, isn't that weird? How do they know that the every infant born in 2001 is going to life to 77 years? Did they have a time machine? How do you generate the statistics on that?
The answer is that life expectancy is really median lifetime. The easiest way to increase the nation's life expectancy is not to find cures for old age and cancer, etc. -- it's to reduce infant mortality. The US has a fairly high infant mortality rate. Why? Because we try harder to save our premature babies.
It's not uncommon for families to rack up a hospital bill for hundreds of thousands of dollars if their infant is sick. In other countries they may say "we're sorry, your child had a birth defect." (FYI, birth defects aren't all genetic problems -- they can simply be a result of bad luck. )
A pill of tylenol might cost $20 at a hospital. Sounds ridiculous, but the reason it's so expensive is that you sick patients without insurance getting care too. No hospital in the United States can refuse emergency treatment for a patient because of insurance status.
If your buddy from England comes here, gets in a bar fight and gets knocked out for a few minutes or two and then regains consciousness and goes to a US hospital, he'll get appropriate treatment. They'll get CT scans, make sure he's not bleeding into his brain, and send him a bill (which he might default on). If you're in a US tourist in England and the same thing happens to you, you're not going to get a CT scan...
There are three elements to healthcare: cost, quality, and access. You can only choose two.
One of the most confusing concepts is life expectancy. It's not that high in the US. In 2001, the life expectancy was 77.2 years. But wait a second, isn't that weird? How do they know that the every infant born in 2001 is going to life to 77 years? Did they have a time machine? How do you generate the statistics on that?
The answer is that life expectancy is really median lifetime. The easiest way to increase the nation's life expectancy is not to find cures for old age and cancer, etc. -- it's to reduce infant mortality. The US has a fairly high infant mortality rate. Why? Because we try harder to save our premature babies.
It's not uncommon for families to rack up a hospital bill for hundreds of thousands of dollars if their infant is sick. In other countries they may say "we're sorry, your child had a birth defect." (FYI, birth defects aren't all genetic problems -- they can simply be a result of bad luck. )
A pill of tylenol might cost $20 at a hospital. Sounds ridiculous, but the reason it's so expensive is that you sick patients without insurance getting care too. No hospital in the United States can refuse emergency treatment for a patient because of insurance status.
If your buddy from England comes here, gets in a bar fight and gets knocked out for a few minutes or two and then regains consciousness and goes to a US hospital, he'll get appropriate treatment. They'll get CT scans, make sure he's not bleeding into his brain, and send him a bill (which he might default on). If you're in a US tourist in England and the same thing happens to you, you're not going to get a CT scan...
There are three elements to healthcare: cost, quality, and access. You can only choose two.
Phoenix said:
Nope and I don't plan on being one.
There's a fundamental difference between your daycare costs and the medicinal costs of the rest of the country...you chose to be a parent, people don't choose to be sick. I really think you're in the minority as far as wanting Michael Moore to make a film about daycare instead of the healthcare.
What agenda do you think Michael Moore is advancing by making this film?
Pfucata said:
There we go... reading the bolded part as one sentence fixes everything else you said... unfortunately there is a HUGE percentage of US citizens that don't have insurance. So we don't even have to go out of the country to see that there is a problem here.
Phoenix said:So is the fast food, porn, home building, insurance, video game, software development, sporting, grocery, news, music making, and film making
He has never claimed that his movies are fair and/or balanced. He was very direct on this issue regarding F9/11, and it astounds me at how many people just choose to ignore it so they can continue to ride the "IT'S NOT A FAIR PORTRAYAL!" train. The man has an agenda, you don't need too much brain power to realize this. What's important to acknowledge, though, is that any expose-style documentary goes in with an agenda, a slant, a pre-concieved notion that it's either trying to prove or disprove. Nothing about Michael Moore has changed, Roger and Me was just as heavy handed in its treatment of General Motors. What's different now is that people are actually offended that he's taken on political leaders, and people take politics personally.
the american public health care system is broken. the drug companies are getting away like bandits, the FDA is rife with corruption, the rest of the public health mechanisms in state govts are all broken as well.. so the average american can't afford proper treatment, and the available treatments are not necessarily going to be wholly therapeutic or safe because full testing and disclosure is not what it should be.
jesus have you apologists been paying any attention at all to the cox inhibitor scandals happening RIGHT NOW?
jesus have you apologists been paying any attention at all to the cox inhibitor scandals happening RIGHT NOW?
Apharmd Battler
Member
Damn, I'm trying not to throw in my opinion in this thread, but I've read some of these responses and people are offering their opinions and feelings on Mr. Moore. Regardless of what you think of him this documentary need to be done. I really don't want to discuss these things in an online forum but I know of many skeletons in a lot of company's closets. The FDA is trying to reel big pharma in line but these company's have proven to be monstrous political connected entities. It got so bad this November that many at my company were flat out telling me who I should vote for. Not that I listen, but the current govenor of my state is an ex-top ranking executive for the states largest pharmaceutical companies. He also was in the President Bush's cabinet which was the reason he left the company in the first place.
And you can only guess what his stance is on the whole drug re-importation issue, as well as government intervention in big pharma. While we're on the subject many don't even know WHY Canada gets a break in it'd drug pricesm which has a lot more to do with thier socialized healthcare system. The poster up above who took the attitude, that have have a $5 co-pay why shoud I care, I could go into a list of reasons why you should. BUt I'm at the relatives for the holidays and would love to debate this subject further. There's a lot that you don't know and you take for granted. But now I have to run off and finish shopping. Agian, don't focus on Mr. Moore, and focus on the issue. The public really would find the whole industry fascinating.......
And you can only guess what his stance is on the whole drug re-importation issue, as well as government intervention in big pharma. While we're on the subject many don't even know WHY Canada gets a break in it'd drug pricesm which has a lot more to do with thier socialized healthcare system. The poster up above who took the attitude, that have have a $5 co-pay why shoud I care, I could go into a list of reasons why you should. BUt I'm at the relatives for the holidays and would love to debate this subject further. There's a lot that you don't know and you take for granted. But now I have to run off and finish shopping. Agian, don't focus on Mr. Moore, and focus on the issue. The public really would find the whole industry fascinating.......
I'm really sick of people wanting everything to be "fair and balanced" or objective.
Guess what? On a lot of matters and issues, there aren't two sides to the story. Well, ok, there are, but one is the correct and the other is the incorrect side. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it- health care should be something garaunteed to all citizens as a right, not something to make money off of and gouge as deep as possible. There's no objective way to look at that- that's just the way it is. And yes, that means socialized medicine. Oh fucking well. It's a far better and preferrable system than the kleptocracy that we have in America currently.
Objectivity is for pussies. Have an agenda and be honest about it, because the people that are up 25 hours a day looking for new ways to fuck you over don't lie about what they want to do. They prey on people's good will and generosity, their propensity to want to let everyone have their say. That's wrong.
Guess what? On a lot of matters and issues, there aren't two sides to the story. Well, ok, there are, but one is the correct and the other is the incorrect side. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it- health care should be something garaunteed to all citizens as a right, not something to make money off of and gouge as deep as possible. There's no objective way to look at that- that's just the way it is. And yes, that means socialized medicine. Oh fucking well. It's a far better and preferrable system than the kleptocracy that we have in America currently.
Objectivity is for pussies. Have an agenda and be honest about it, because the people that are up 25 hours a day looking for new ways to fuck you over don't lie about what they want to do. They prey on people's good will and generosity, their propensity to want to let everyone have their say. That's wrong.
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