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[Azih]

Ligitation has never been an issue up here at all really. Have no idea why the American experience is so different. :shrug: I really don't know anything about the legal situation but tort law has never popped up as an issue in healthcare. Edit: I *believe* there has always been some sort of a cap in place, but don't quote me on that, if there's some canadian lawyer or law student here they could tell you, it's not info that can be easily googled.

As for quality comparision, the median,average,minimum,maximum levels of service are all very similar to each other in canada (if you take it province by province). How are you going to fix the median level of service in the States? And are you defining it by services offered, wait times, or what? It's a complex beast this.

I mean measures such as life expectancy, infant mortality etc. seem to be rejected by some American posters as a measure of quality (not a rejection I agree with), what other measure would be used... especially to judge somehting like 'median' quality?

Perhaps you don't know what the "3rd world" is then. What you are saying is that our health care system is worse than many countries in Africa or South America. Places that are termed "3rd world" countries. NONE of the countries listed in your stats are 3rd world countries.

Also here, I believe Ignatz Mouse was referring to 'industrialised nations' which are first world.

 

[Outcast2004]

Why do they let Michael Morre keep making movies?
Don't call them documentaries, they aren't...

How much longer are they going to let ths extremist fudge facts around to suit his own agenda? I mean really, Fahrenheit 9/11 is a great example of all his inaccuracies and his editing of certain events.

The guy is widely considered a joke, and is only relevant to the lowest common denomonator who can't form their own thoughts and need to have the slob form them for him.

He caters to the paranoid and the ill-informed of this country and it's really terrifying.

 

[Azih]

Why do they let Michael Morre keep making movies?...
How much longer are they going to let ths extremist fudge facts around to suit his own agenda?

Who is this 'they'?

The guy is widely considered a joke

in what circles?

 

[Outcast2004]

"they" as in the studios who finance his works of partial fiction. He gets his funding from somewhere, right?

As for who considers him a joke, just about anyone who can form a thought for themselves. To a lesser extent, any serious journalist.

I understand his movies rile people up and make some money which gets him publicity and therefore gets he studio money. BUT, the guy makes these docu-movies and skews the truth so bad in his favor to push whatever agenda he may have.

 

[Azih]

"they" as in the studios who finance his works of partial fiction. He gets his funding from somewhere, right?

As for who considers him a joke, just about anyone who can form a thought for themselves. To a lesser extent, any serious journalist.

I understand his movies rile people up and make some money which gets him publicity and therefore gets he studio money. BUT, the guy makes these docu-movies and skews the truth so bad in his favor to push whatever agenda he may have.

Well you asked and answered your own first question there. His movies make money, they get funding, the end.

I would recommend however that you take a closer look at who exactly considers Moore a joke. 'about anyone who can form a thought for themselves' isn't a good way to look at it for a number of reasons.

 

[Outcast2004]

Azih and I answered that as well.. he's considered an extremist blowhard joke by any serious journalist, movie critic, ad nauseum.

The guy has a major agenda, and will structure the truth anyway he can to back up his paranoia.

I really don't understand why anyone supports this hack. Really, what good has he done?

 

[Outdoor Miner]

Azih and I answered that as well.. he's considered an extremist blowhard joke by any serious journalist, movie critic, ad nauseum.

The guy has a major agenda, and will structure the truth anyway he can to back up his paranoia.

On the opposite end of the spectrum you have Bill O'Reilly (just ONE example). Hell, Bill O'Reilly does all those things you accuse Moore of on a daily basis. I question why haven't they removed Mr. O'Reilly from Fox. I mean, any serious news network worth it's salt wouldn't give Bill O'Reilly the time of day, right?
Balance maybe?

 

[Azih]

Azih and I answered that as well.. he's considered an extremist blowhard joke by any serious journalist, movie critic, ad nauseum.

Ahuh http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/fahrenheit_911/

Like I said, you need to pay closer attention to who considers Moore a joke.

 

[videogamer]

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[Dilbert]

Outcast, you're dangerously on the edge of trolling. Knock off the blanket, unsubstantiated statements, or you're going to take a vacation for a while.

For one thing, if you're going to single out Moore for (allegedly) "fudging facts around to suit his own agenda" and "catering to the paranoid and the ill-informed of this country," you'd better take a look at the target of his last film as well. And, oh yeah, Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, etc.

For another, we've been over the fact issue to DEATH already. Some people have questioned Moore's CONCLUSIONS, based on certain pieces of data. But arguing that ARCHIVAL FOOTAGE is "fudged" or a "lie" or something like that is ridiculous.

Finally, he continues to make films because he has an economically viable audience. Whether you personally find his films of value is irrelevant.

 

[explodet]

Azih and I answered that as well.. he's considered an extremist blowhard joke by any serious journalist, movie critic, ad nauseum.

He did win an Academy Award, you know.

Although some may say that proves your point rather than refutes it.

 

[Outcast2004]

I, for one, don't count O'Reilly, Coulter or Limbaugh as journalists. I consider them more of what they as editorial material. I lump Moore into this group as well. That's not journalism.

I agree with Sal Paradise Jr as well, i myself am surprised that Fox (a channel that considers themselves "FAIR AND BALANCED") hasn't taken O'Reilly off yet.

-jinx-, call it trolling if you wish, I call it a differing viewpoint. BUT, I do question the manner in which he tries to make his points. I've seen his works, I know the type of tactics he uses.

Hammy, as for what you have said I didn't insult anyone. I spoke it the way I saw it. I view his films as a way of catering to those who don't inform themselves on his topics and take his extremist viewpoints he makes as the the stone cold truth. Which, as we all know, is not the case.

As for the poor advancing in society, the opportunities are there to improve their place. It's a matter of having the capacity and the courage to seize it.

Did he deserve a "documentary" academy award, probably not. But he got it anyway, amid a loud sea of boos.

Ok, so he does have an audiece for his soap boxing. Good, I don't agree with it, but what ever makes him money and helps him sleep at night I guess.

It will be interesting to see his take on the drug companies, another topic that the media has done numerous time before. It's a difficult issue to tackle, with no one being right about it.

I hope this handles everyones problems, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to state my stance.

 

[Azih]

I for one am not satisifed with your defense of the

The guy is widely considered a joke

quote.

 

[videogamer]

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[Outcast2004]

Azih, sorry. No one really takes the guy seriously, do they? That's all I have to say on the matter.

Hammy, as for you. I don't recall imply ANYTHING about you. Unless, you view yourself as one of those he's catering to. If so, sorry.

And if you needed Michael Moore to inform you about the poor struggling to survive you need to take your head out of the sand and look around.

 

[videogamer]

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[Dilbert]

Azih, sorry. No one really takes the guy seriously, do they? That's all I have to say on the matter.

Hammy, as for you. I don't recall imply ANYTHING about you. Unless, you view yourself as one of those he's catering to. If so, sorry.

And if you needed Michael Moore to inform you about the poor struggling to survive you need to take your head out of the sand and look around.

Well, I suspect that Hammy is reacting to this:

The guy is widely considered a joke, and is only relevant to the lowest common denomonator who can't form their own thoughts and need to have the slob form them for him.

He caters to the paranoid and the ill-informed of this country and it's really terrifying.

Those statements imply that:

1) If you find Moore relevant, the you can't form your own thoughts.
2) If you like Moore, you are paranoid and ill-informed.

Also, continuing to insist that "no one takes the guy seriously" when LOTS of people have already said that they do is a bad, bad idea.

Seriously -- you should bail out of this thread now. At first I thought you were just being clumsy with your talking points, but now I'm starting to think that you know what you're doing.

 

[Azih]

Azih, sorry. No one really takes the guy seriously, do they? That's all I have to say on the matter.

:sigh: They do. The Academy Award and the majority positive reviews attest to this. Most of the reviews came from 'serious journalists' and 'movie critics'. Which is the point I'm making. You have to look closer at who exactly considers Moore a joke, because your contention that 'serious journalists, movie critics' do falls *flat*.

And if you needed Michael Moore to inform you about the poor struggling to survive you need to take your head out of the sand and look around

You might however need Moore to refute the idea that 'all the poor need is capacity and courage to improve their place'.

 

[Outcast2004]

Hammy, then I apologize for saying this, but that is sad.

All you had to do was open your eyes and look around what ever community you happen to live in to see those who need help and who are struggling to get by. You didn't need Michael Moore for that.

Movies shouldn't change your life, you should. Micheal Moore had no part in you helping others out, that was all you.

I do applaud you for doing all you can to help out those less fortunate than youself. Regardless of your motivations.


Azih, no matter what your postion on the economic food chain, you have the abilty to make yourself whatever you wish. I myself have worked my way up from a near poverty level, so I do have a pretty clear picture on what it takes to dig myself out of it.

 

[videogamer]

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[Outcast2004]

Hammy, we'll agree to disagree on the guy (I'll take this stance with the rest of the members on this thread). Whats good for one may not be for the other.


But, once again I do applaud you. Whatever your motivations are, you are a credit to your community.

With that said, I'm done posting in this thread before I post something that i may regret.

EDIT: this article states it better than I ever could:
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/main/about/moore.htm

 

[Azih]

Butting in again but I don't see how you can agree to disagree with the idea that 'serious journalists and movie critics think Michael Moore is a joke' when it can be DEMONSTRATED that this is y'know completely false.

And why the heck do you keep on bringing up Hammy's motivations?