Support NeoGAF

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Do the FirebrandX PS2 profiles on the Framemeister fix the color and gamma issues?

I might have to look into getting an mcable. It would be cool for someone to release and HDMI plug & play solution like the Gamecube. It seems like I read somewhere that someone is creating one.

Sorry for the late reply, that's how it is with me these days, too much to do and not enough time to do it in so GAF is on the bottom of my todo list.

The firebrand X profiles I haven't used since I do not need them with SCART input now that framemiester it pretty far into it's firmware updates. The latest firmware I have corrected every gamma and color issue I had, atleast with scart.

 

[Romulus]

I'm playing Doom 3 ROE on Xbox and its a step up visually over the normal Doom 3. I'd never played it before. The tradeoff is the fps. It's not bad, but certain combinations of enemy types cause drops.

 

[SonGoku]

How many polys on DAT ASS?

Rogue squadron defeated?

 

[polybius80]

I don't like in this thread that we are pretending ps2 and cube are on the same playing field instead of cube and Xbox.

I am not "pretending" anything, ps2 ang gc are in the same level as specs and games show

xbox is in other level, sure the other consoles can match polycounts and effects here and there but overall cant match it, let alone when used at its fullest, that is because MS paid a high price for premium hardware, it was a bad design probably rushed but the specs were top notch hardware it wasnt sustainable even for MS, they burned money but as a user they are giving you a very powerful hardware very cheap, it was so expensive that if you wanted to hurt MS back then just buy more than one xbox that is wasted money for MS as is the cost they take for that console and one person less that will buy games for it, xbox has literally no flaws, it doesnt have any ps2 or gc weakneses like vertex or pixel shading, it has a good compresion algorithm like gc, it has more memory it doesnt have the ps2 fill rate but it ok, it was designed to run complex shaders instead of multipass, it has flexibility, and on top of that it has hdd so games can rely on a faster streaming compared to stream from disc like the other consoles, there is no contest

 

[polybius80]

double post

 

[Chozofication_]

How many polys on DAT ASS?

Rogue squadron defeated?

Is this game actually fun lol

 

[SonGoku]

btw whats the consensus on Xbox vs Wii?

 

[Chozofication_]

Wii is 100% the more capable machine vs. Xbox. Hardware features aside, their chips are comparable in what they can do per clock cycle.

However memory wise - it's 88mbs, of 6.4gb/s +2.6gb/s (gddr3 plus 1tsram) plus edram (17gb/s plus framebuffer tricks) vs a single pool of 64 at 6.4gb/s.

Coupled with a 243mhz front side bus for Wii, vs xbox's 133mhz.

Silent hill also runs at 60fps

I mean, if anyone wants to argue Xbox was better because teh normal mapz they can but that's a feature, not a measure of power.

The metrics on Xbox and wii are clear.

 

[Romulus]

It's incredible that people still ask about Xbox vs Wii power, but people do constantly. I was even confused because there are lots of games that look and perform better on the Xbox.

Wii launched 5 years after the Xbox, during a time when graphics processing was improving leaps and bounds. Really shows how far ahead of its times the Xbox was in terms of raw power and the ability to do advanced techniques with shaders and mapping. What a beast.

 

[cireza]

Is this game actually fun lol

Pretty good game, a bit strange though. It is a game that goes in the "AA" size of games in my opinion, so they could try things and that's great. This is pretty sad because we don't have many games like this anymore.

 

[SonGoku]

The metrics on Xbox and wii are clear.

So what's the consensus? I remember Factor 5 pulling some pretty nifty to the metal coding

Wii launched 5 years after the Xbox, during a time when graphics processing was improving leaps and bounds. Really shows how far ahead of its times the Xbox was in terms of raw power and the ability to do advanced techniques with shaders and mapping. What a beast.

Xbox was the most capable 6th gen hands down but it also was prohibitively expensive and MS burned money with it.
GC was the best, most elegant design of that gen.

Wii is not new hw just a reinforced GC

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

You want some good polycounts, with thousands of particle effects just check out the budget title Grand Prix Challenge from Melbourne House from 2003.
Pretty sure the video was ran on the emulator so the picture quality isn't near that level though.


22 cars with physics and damage modeling and debris at 60 fps.
20,000 polygons per car after the multipass rendering of effects, 11,000 per model raw. (440,000 polys for the cars)
500,000 polys for the tracks with per-pixel lighting on the road surfaces.
Rain is made up of 10,000 particles and each car can emit 1,000 for spray effects. (32,000 particles)

again, at 60 fps, in 2003, on a PS2. I'm just posting it because of how impressive the specs are for a console from 2000.

 

[SonGoku]

DAMN PS2 was a beast in its own way
MGS2 & 3 where also mighty impressive

 

[Chozofication_]

So what's the consensus? I remember Factor 5 pulling some pretty nifty to the metal coding

Xbox was the most capable 6th gen hands down but it also was prohibitively expensive and MS burned money with it.
GC was the best, most elegant design of that gen.

Wii is not new hw just a reinforced GC

Consensus from who? More ram, much faster ram, an embedded framebuffer and an extra 110mhz fsb speed is enough evidence in wiis favor.

The Pentium 3 and gekko can both perform 4 flops per cycle, as documented. Wii and xbox are 4mhz apart ; but on Wii you have more cache and ram to work with.

Xbox and wiis gpus are similar in what they can push out as well, but xbox has serious limitations in bandwidth and CPU to gpu communication. The latter can impact polygon pushing performance, physics etc. GameCube had a fsb just as fast as its gpu so it didn't share xboxs bottleneck.

Xbox is the more powerful console over cube, but GameCube had enough advantages to where it could produce superior results in alpha transparencies, polygons and water/reflection tricks in a lot of games made from the ground up on cube.

Wii just takes cubes advantages, ditches its ram size and clock speed weaknesses and calls ot a day. Wii still isnt as good as Xbox at vertex calculations on dynamic meshes, but I believe that is the only advantage.

 

[SonGoku]

Xbox and wiis gpus are similar in what they can push out as well, but xbox has serious limitations in bandwidth and CPU to gpu communication. The latter can impact polygon pushing performance, physics etc. GameCube had a fsb just as fast as its gpu so it didn't share xboxs bottleneck.

But doesn't the Xbox pull some fancy shader effects (skin, lightning, reflections) not possible on the Wii gpu?
btw did the Wii close the texture quality gap between the two? and did Prime 3 look better than the GC entries?


Games from Wii vs Xbox would make for a very interesting comparison

 

[Chozofication_]

You want some good polycounts, with thousands of particle effects just check out the budget title Grand Prix Challenge from Melbourne House from 2003.
Pretty sure the video was ran on the emulator so the picture quality isn't near that level though.


22 cars with physics and damage modeling and debris at 60 fps.
20,000 polygons per car after the multipass rendering of effects, 11,000 per model raw. (440,000 polys for the cars)
500,000 polys for the tracks with per-pixel lighting on the road surfaces.
Rain is made up of 10,000 particles and each car can emit 1,000 for spray effects. (32,000 particles)

again, at 60 fps, in 2003, on a PS2. I'm just posting it because of how impressive the specs are for a console from 2000.

Ps2 has good looking racers.

But doesn't the Xbox pull some fancy shader effects (skin, lightning, reflections) not possible on the Wii gpu?
btw did the Wii close the texture quality gap between the two? and did Prime 3 look better than the GC entries?


Games from Wii vs Xbox would make for a very interesting comparison

Xbox could produce higher res textures than cube simply because it had more memory. So yeah, Wii closed that gap and can even push ahead if devs wanted.

As far as i know the only thing Wii cant do that Xbox can are normal maps. Technically, probably stencil shadows as well but silent hill kinda replicates that effect brilliantly.

Anything else, Wii can do with its TEV pipeline. Normal maps are just a cheaper substitute for quality geometry, and being able to do them means nothing relative to fillrate, bandwidth, pixels or texel performance.

Prime 3 has higher res textures, bloom lighting, more polygonal detail, more particles etc. etc. Over prime 2.

 

[Chozofication_]

Just to cover all the bases, Xbox technically has superior image output to Wii even when both are outputting 480p.

This is because Wii can only have its framebuffer in its 2mb edram ; it's baked in the design. So there is some dithering not present in Xbox output, since it can dedicate more ram to the framebuffer.

I wish Nintendo pushed a little bit harder for at least 1 more mb edram, and a bit higher clocks, but it was what it was. They figured most people were still on crt's, and misjudged hdtv adoption rate.

 

[Romulus]

xbox has serious limitations in bandwidth and CPU to gpu communication. The latter can impact polygon pushing performance, physics etc. GameCube had a fsb just as fast as its gpu so it didn't share xboxs bottleneck.

Seems like they found pretty decent workarounds with the bottleneck then on the physics side, Half-Life 2, for example, was considered to be the intensive physics-based game years after its launch. It shouldn't have ran at all on Xbox looking at the specs. Other games with crazy physics like Hulk Ultimate Destruction run at native 720p, with less framerate issues than Gamecube at 480p. I've owned both versions, and even media outlets back this up.

That's just on the physics side, I've yet to see actual proof on the polygons. But developers can work around bottlenecks so its not an end all.

 

[Chozofication_]

Nothing was overcome, half life 2 ran quite poorly. Keep trying though!

Hulk is a multiplat where the lead platform was ps2. Let's discuss more technical specifications ; less using multiplatform development of which we have no idea what was prioritized over the other versions. It's telling when people cannot argue against the specs difference.

It is however easy to see how GameCube multiplatform development could suffer even compared to ps2.

Cube had only 24mb of fast ram, while the slower, 16mb "sound" ram needed to be accounted for from the start of development. Its lower bandwidth meant devs porting to cube were left with a problem. The 24/16 mb split could also be problematic for devs as we saw with ps3 on occasion.

Moreover, it's entirely possible for the eDRAM to be mismanaged, which would result in further disadvantages when compared to xbox development. We've seen this even this generation on early Xbox one multiplat development.

These issues would have been avoidable in thoughtful exclusive development.

 

[Tesseract]

what do you mean nothing was overcome, it's running on a goddamn pentium 3 equivalent with 64 mb of ddr ram lol

 

[Romulus]

Nothing was overcome, half life 2 ran quite poorly. Keep trying though!

Hulk is a multiplat where the lead platform was ps2. Let's discuss more technical specifications ; less using multiplatform development of which we have no idea what was prioritized over the other versions. It's telling when people cannot argue against the specs difference.

It is however easy to see how GameCube multiplatform development could suffer even compared to ps2.

Cube had only 24mb of fast ram, while the slower, 16mb "sound" ram needed to be accounted for from the start of development. Its lower bandwidth meant devs porting to cube were left with a problem. The 24/16 mb split could also be problematic for devs as we saw with ps3 on occasion.

Moreover, it's entirely possible for the eDRAM to be mismanaged, which would result in further disadvantages when compared to xbox development. We've seen this even this generation on early Xbox one multiplat development.

These issues would have been avoidable in thoughtful exclusive development.

Keep trying, what? Having a discussion without you needing a warning from mods?

It's already known the xbox half life 2 port had framerate issues, but as the video suggests its very impressive considering the specs. Which is my point. Waaay under required PC specs + a bottleneck as you say specfically for physics? Doesn't add up.

Do you have a link that hulk was ps2 lead platform?

 

[Romulus]

Also, your timestamp for that DF video HL2 on Xbox above is interesting, in that it cuts off my exact point about the PC version minimum specs and all the positives DF had to say about it. Luckily, I had just watched that video so I knew. Here's the beginning:

 

[Chozofication_]

what do you mean nothing was overcome, it's running on a goddamn pentium 3 equivalent with 64 mb of ddr ram lol

With dips to 10fps. "At least it works" isn't exactly an impressive showcase.

Nor is doom on switch...

 

[Romulus]

Digital Foundry on Half life 2 Xbox port:

Xbox specs sit far below the minimum PC specs, and even PCs meeting the recommended specs still struggled with framerate.

 

[Chozofication_]

Also, your timestamp for that DF video HL2 on Xbox above is interesting, in that it cuts off my exact point about the PC version minimum specs and all the positives DF had to say about it. Luckily, I had just watched that video so I knew. Here's the beginning:

Dude you are nuts.

 

[Romulus]

Dude you are nuts.

But unblocked

 

[Chozofication_]

But unblocked

Well if that's what you want troll, you win.

 

[Romulus]

Well if that's what you want troll, you win.

Right. Now do you have a source for Hulk's lead platform? Couldnt find it. I'd like to read about it.

 

[Chozofication_]

For other sane posters, I'm pretty much infering that hulk was lead platform on the ps2 given that was usually the case.

Ps2s hardware and tools were such a pain in the ass that you had to make sure it would run there first and foremost given the massive install base. Then, as ERP noted in that b3d quote, you'd just dump it on Xbox and it would run, but GameCube required tweaking due to memory differences. Or if there was a lot of geometry deformation.

I'm not 100% sure and cant ask the now defunct radical studios, but it's extremely likely this was the case.

Esp. Since Xbox had so much headroom to run it in 720p ; it adds to the thought that ps2 was lead.

The modeling looks verrry ps2 like to me, I'm convinced ps2 was lead but have no evidence.

 

[JordanN]

I remember Nintendo fans hyping this demo way back, claiming that the final released games always surpassed the tech demo visuals
Im not even sure a PS4 can pull these visuals in a game

This shot looks awful, i know theres closeup shots were gow3 looks better but thats limited to scripted boss battles not free roaming games like Zelda
The IQ and DoF looks a step above anything on PS3,

The Zelda demo ran at 720p and even has noticeable aliasing in that screenshot.
There's nothing about it that the PS3 couldn't have done either. And the PS4 surpassed it at launch.

And I remembered a developer debunked the myth that God of War 3 was scripted. There is no technical reason why they couldn't move the camera if they wanted to. It's just kept that way for cinematic gameplay reasons.

Possible game camera methods and optimisations *spawn

Mod: This thread spawned from the GOW3 game thread. The nature of game camera's is a worthwhile debate but not one for the game thread. Is it even fair to compare UC2 and GoW3, especially considering GoW is a game that always controls what you see (fixed camera)?FYI, the camera is NOT fixed...

forum.beyond3d.com

FYI, the camera is NOT fixed. It is highly scripted to provide a highly cinematic play experience, yes, but in no meaning of the word is the camera fixed! Within the setup cinematic parameters there is a LOT of room for the camera to adjust (zooming, panning, etc) to the action that happens on the screen (where the player is, where the enemies are, etc). Because of the amount of adjustments the camera system can make automatically, there are very few assumptions that can be made about what to render or not render.

Not only has the camera system in GoW been described in detail at a lecture at GDC in the past, but if you paid attention during game play, it would be apparent that the camera does have several degrees of freedom outside of its scripted nature.

We could easily allow the user full control of the camera during game play. The reason we do not is because we feel it breaks the cinematic experience that we have carefully crafted, not because there is some geometry missing if you turn around (as you imply).

 

[Chozofication_]

Man god of war had some impressive moments but at times it was pretty ugly with inconsistent modeling.

But damn, fighting chronos and Poseidon was impressive. Nothing impressed me on ps3 like killzone 2 though, even if it had high input latency.

That thread about gow3's camera was certainly entertaining.

 

[SonGoku]

There's nothing about it that the PS3 couldn't have done either. And the PS4 surpassed it at launch.

I meant PS3 coulnt run on an open environment, boss battles are heavily scripted (not talking about camera angle)
Yes i admit i overreacted, PS4 can obviously produce it, not sure about the reflections though

 

[Doczu]

btw whats the consensus on Xbox vs Wii?

Superior CPU and memory (amount and bandwith) on the Wii side, GPU that may have been better in pushing polys, but still bound to the GCN fixed functions and without shader functions.
The best Wii lookers.still looked pale to games like Riddick or Doom

 

[MarioLuigi]

Ah, the greatest console generation......golden age of gaming

 

[Doczu]

Ah, the greatest console generation......golden age of gaming

It really was. Tremendous amount of great AAA titles, hidden gems on all platforms, many experimental games. I miss those days

 

[JordanN]

I meant PS3 coulnt run on an open environment, boss battles are heavily scripted (not talking about camera angle)
Yes i admit i overreacted, PS4 can obviously produce it, not sure about the reflections though

The same could be said about the Zelda demo. It only took place in the Temple.

Regarding the reflections, I'm going to take a stab and say it's either using a [high quality] environment/cube map, or it's just the same models mirrored twice.

Funny enough, games of yesteryear (i.e PS2, N64, Gamecube etc) could actually do better real time reflections than modern games.

 

[JordanN]

Also, shameless self promotion, but I used the same "mirrored model" technique when I made this low poly fanart a few years ago. Real time Reflections aren't hard.

 

[Oemenia]

I am glad the Nintendo fans are still fighting this one because in the future when they try to rewrite history as they always do we can point them to this thread.

 

[pawel86ck]

Xbox is the more powerful console over cube, but GameCube had enough advantages to where it could produce superior results in alpha transparencies, polygons and water/reflection tricks in a lot of games made from the ground up on cube.

But where are these games with more polygons and better water reflection tricks compared to xbox? I have played many GC games, but I havent seen games that would show more polygons than xbox games, and when it comes to water rendering pixel shaders in xbox games was unmatched. For example Crimson Skies, not only water surface had sun reflections but also realistic ripples thanks to shaders, while in Rogue Leader water looked ok from up close, but very bland from a distance.

Water in Crimson Skies looked amazing in motion

Water in Rogue Leader

And shaders in xbox games were not only used for water rendering but also on many surfaces (especially in Splinter Cell 3 to provide realistic characteristic to many materials).

Xbox could stream textures from HDD, it had pixel and vertex shaders, and also shadows buffers could be used for improved shadows rendering! These are all important features and TEV unit in GC can replace all these things magically. Effects in most GC games looked pretty much like in PS2 games, effects in xbox games however looked clearly differenct. If TEV unit could replicate effects like xbox games like splinter cell wouldnt be so extremely downgraded.

 

[Chozofication_]

But where are these games with more polygons and better water reflection tricks compared to xbox? I have played many GC games, but I havent seen games that would show more polygons than xbox games, and when it comes to water rendering pixel shaders in xbox games was unmatched. For example Crimson Skies, not only water surface had sun reflections but also realistic ripples thanks to shaders, while in Rogue Leader water looked ok from up close, but very bland from a distance.

Water in Crimson Skies looked amazing in motion

Water in Rogue Leader

And shaders in xbox games were not only used for water rendering but also on many surfaces (especially in Splinter Cell 3 to provide realistic characteristic to many materials).

Xbox could stream textures from HDD, it had pixel and vertex shaders, and also shadows buffers could be used for improved shadows rendering! These are all important features and TEV unit in GC can replace all these things magically. Effects in most GC games looked pretty much like in PS2 games, effects in xbox games however looked clearly differenct. If TEV unit could replicate effects like xbox games like splinter cell wouldnt be so extremely downgraded.

I think ive explained my reasoning more than once in the thread and I've countered your splinter cell argument and multiplat comparisons.

Crimson skies looks nice in fact i own it. But it lacks reflections and is less animated compared to wave race or mario sunshine.

700 posts, wow man i think we should wrap this thread up and toss it like moldy cheese.

 

[Romulus]

Dismissing Rogue Squardron water(another flight game) in favor of a platformer, just lol.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Refresh my memory. Was it only the 360 that had the Gamma problem (black crush) or did the og have it as well? I'm assuming it got fixed eventually?

 

[Outrunner]

Had to wait almost 10 years to see people arguing that Gamecube is more powerful than Xbox. Damn.

 

[pawel86ck]

I think ive explained my reasoning more than once in the thread and I've countered your splinter cell argument and multiplat comparisons.

Crimson skies looks nice in fact i own it. But it lacks reflections and is less animated compared to wave race or mario sunshine.

700 posts, wow man i think we should wrap this thread up and toss it like moldy cheese.

You have countered my spinter cell argument by ignoring it and saying it's just a multiplatform game, and that's very weak counter argument.

Water in Spinter Cell 2 on xbox, it has realistic ripples and reflections

Water in PC version (it looks similar like on xbox)

And finally water on GC

In GC version water looks way better compared to standard GC and PS2 games, but compared to xbox games it looks much worse and especially during motion water ripples looks like oil paint. Also there's more objects on the xbox verison and I wonder why ? According to you GC should be able to push more polygons.

Crimson Skies can be considered a shooter similar to rogue leader, while Mario Sunshine is a totally different game, and even then water in Mario is not the best looking water on 6'th gen by any means.

Here's Digital Foundry video that talks about water rendering in these GC games (Wave Race, Super Mario Sunshoine and StarFox adventures). Developers have used very interesting trick on GC to achieve water reflections in Wave Race.

 

[SonGoku]

The same could be said about the Zelda demo. It only took place in the Temple.

That's what im getting at, i don't think Nintendo were being conservative with the tech demo unlike past zelda tech demos this wasnt representative of the visuals wiiu could produce outside heavily scripted scenarios

Regarding the reflections, I'm going to take a stab and say it's either using a [high quality] environment/cube map, or it's just the same models mirrored twice.

Are there any PS3 games with reflections as good looking and clean? genuinely curious

If TEV unit could replicate effects like xbox games like splinter cell wouldnt be so extremely downgraded.

I agree with most of your post except this premise.
Splinter Cell was developed around Xbox streghths as that was the lead platform, both PS2 & GC could produce better results (than the ports) if the game was developed from the ground up around their hardware. XBOX would still win obviously

Same with RE4, I think PS2 could have done better if the game was developed for it from the ground up around ps2 hw instead of ported, or MGS2 on Xbox... See my point?

 

[Romulus]

In regards to dismissing multiplatforms. There is plenty of merit there because there are so many variables in terms of the development process etc. However, over the generations with all the custom hardware, there have always been advantages on both sides of the hardware war, even from the "weaker" console. Custom hardware allows for that, exploiting strengths not available on other consoles.

SNES vs Genesis
Both console showed their strengths in multiplatforms. Typically SNES had better colors/music and Genesis better animation.

N64 vs Playstation
N64 had less pixelated textures, but blurrier.

Ps4 vs xb1
Even with extremely similar hardware, the more powerful ps4 GPU allowed for higher resolutions almost always, however, the xb1's CPU allowed for better fps in limited cases.

360 vs ps3
360 largely shows its advantages with easier development process. However many ps3 multiplatforms were clearly superior due to wrangling the cell and supposed "fast RAM" of the ps3. PS3 was also considered one of the most difficult consoles to code for.

I'm missing examples above, but even Saturn and Dreamcast have also demonstrated their abilities despite being "weaker." 2D games for example on Saturn.



Gamecube vs Xbox

Per this thread, this is where it gets odd. Suddenly, the Gamecube with its custom superhighway of memory compared to supposed bottlenecked Xbox shows almost zero advantages in so many multiplatform variables? Various games; platformers, racers, shooters, sports games, various game engines, physics heavy, open world, GPU heavy etc etc. In almost every single case, we're forced to believe that all developers were lazy over the course of 4-5 years?

But yet in the past generations, even weaker hardware with custom advantages showed their strengths in multiplatforms.

Not only that, we see Xbox multiplatforms that are possibly the largest gap between two rivals, ever, especially considering their close release window. On top of all that, the most demanding games of the generation weren't even attempted on Gamecube. Half-Life 2, Doom, Riddick, games that crippled high-end Hardware. Developers also expressed on more than one occasion that the Xbox was the only system capable of running their games.

 

[Oemenia]

In regards to dismissing multiplatforms. There is plenty of merit there because there are so many variables in terms of the development process etc. However, over the generations with all the custom hardware, there have always been advantages on both sides of the hardware war, even from the "weaker" console. Custom hardware allows for that, exploiting strengths not available on other consoles.

SNES vs Genesis
Both console showed their strengths in multiplatforms. Typically SNES had better colors/music and Genesis better animation.

N64 vs Playstation
N64 had less pixelated textures, but blurrier.

Ps4 vs xb1
Even with extremely similar hardware, the more powerful ps4 GPU allowed for higher resolutions almost always, however, the xb1's CPU allowed for better fps in limited cases.

360 vs ps3
360 largely shows its advantages with easier development process. However many ps3 multiplatforms were clearly superior due to wrangling the cell and supposed "fast RAM" of the ps3. PS3 was also considered one of the most difficult consoles to code for.

I'm missing examples above, but even Saturn and Dreamcast have also demonstrated their abilities despite being "weaker." 2D games for example on Saturn.



Gamecube vs Xbox

Per this thread, this is where it gets odd. Suddenly, the Gamecube with its custom superhighway of memory compared to supposed bottlenecked Xbox shows almost zero advantages in so many multiplatform variables? Various games; platformers, racers, shooters, sports games, various game engines, physics heavy, open world, GPU heavy etc etc. In almost every single case, we're forced to believe that all developers were lazy over the course of 4-5 years?

But yet in the past generations, even weaker hardware with custom advantages showed their strengths in multiplatforms.

Not only that, we see Xbox multiplatforms that are possibly the largest gap between two rivals, ever, especially considering their close release window. On top of all that, the most demanding games of the generation weren't even attempted on Gamecube. Half-Life 2, Doom, Riddick, games that crippled high-end Hardware. Developers also expressed on more than one occasion that the Xbox was the only system capable of running their games.

Oh no, you see Nintendo fanboys compare stuff, just only by their own standards.

The moment you do the same, it doesn't count all of a sudden!

 

[Romulus]

Oh no, you see Nintendo fanboys compare stuff, just only by their own standards.

The moment you do the same, it doesn't count all of a sudden!

Lol or the other thing I've noticed is using subjective tactics like "better water" or unproven metrics like "more polygons." Everything has to be vague, suggestive, or subjective but no hard evidence.

 

[Oemenia]

Lol or the other thing I've noticed is using subjective tactics like "better water" or unproven metrics like "more polygons." Everything has to be vague, suggestive, or subjective but no hard evidence.

I remember the time when RE4 came out, some were delusional enough to start saying it was as impressive Doom 3! No wonder they are so defensive about that game, it's basically just a souped up PS2 game at the end of the day.

I'm just glad the internet was big in the PS2 days, otherwise we would be hearing about how great the GC was at Mode 7!

 

[Shiken]

I never cared about the OG XBox, but I had a GC and a PS2. The PS2 had more games by far, but the GC was definitely the more capable of the two. It just had a few odd design choices that steered some 3rd parties away is all. With that being said however, the GC library was no slouch either. It just did not bolster the sheer number of games found on the PS2.

That is really all I can say on the matter TBH. Those were simpler times and it was all about the games over what box they were on.