Tiago Rodrigues
Gold Member
Imagine showing these numbers on countless topics before this gen started where PS5 was doomed due to lacking teraflops and lacking a console that costed 300€ lmaoFrom Installbase
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
European GSD H1 2024: PS5 is -16%, Switch -32% and Xbox Series S/X -37%
- Thread starter yazenov
- Start date
150k in half of a year is crazy yeah might as well slow down production in EU.From Installbase
AyraSutoraifu
Member
Slow down or better, just stop production.
I was being nice lol
Last edited:
jm89
Member
Retailers will be asking the question is it worth giving xbox console shelf space?From Installbase
With declining physical games sales especially for xbox, and then consoles sales declining causing a decline in accessory sales.
Giving shelf space to xbox might not be viable. It may end up being shoved into a even smaller corner then it already is, and that's assuming xbox still have the stomach to continue shipping consoles to european retailers.
jm89
Member
I don't think anyone really needs to push a narratives for xbox decline in europe.
The numbers speak for themselves.
ChorizoPicozo
Gold Member
"cloud is literally the console"
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
No one is saying nothing about that "narrative".
And not the kind of narrative we were talking.
Last edited:
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
To be that far behind the Switch. Yeesh!From Installbase
Shakka43
Member
But what about the digital console sales? That's where XB excels...From Installbase
CuteFaceJay
Member
PS Triple guy must be happy right about now.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
They did everything except delivering what matters: good games.
It's poised to change soon, but Xbox has dealt with over a decade of mediocre offerings. However, those big acquisitions cost a lot of money and papa Nadella wants to see those dollars back sooner rather than later. As such, those games will also come out on PlayStation as they will not wait another decade for Xbox's hardware numbers to improve, further diminishing the need for an Xbox console.
They don't care about the hardware anymore. It's been a failure since around 2010.
yazenov
Member
From Installbase
MS executives after reading this report :
"Smart" executive number 1: Guys let's release another console early and hit the reset button. We'll do the same game plan but only release the console earlier this time. You know, a head start on the competitor. 1st to 10 million wins baby!
Genius executive with a gamer shirt: I have a better idea guys, let's make a handheld instead. Because this kids aren't into consoles now. Gamepass on the go baby!
Microsoft for the win!
AyraSutoraifu
Member
Only for a while the 360 was the highlight. That's it.
PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
I saw that here in the Netherlands, 4 years ago the space for the PS5 was much bigger then for the Xboxseries but now the Xbox stock is a quarter pallet and the PS5 two full stacked pallets.and the PS5 gets new stock on a regular basis. What the games space concerns its laughable the xbox game space is almost non existing. And no, its not the GamePass effect...
mayham2199
Member
What happened is all the fans celebrating that stuff were fans who were still with the ecosystem after all the failures. The rest of us left a long time ago and never looked back because we kept saying we wanted more games, they kept saying they know they need to deliver more games, and they continued to do things that no one asked for.
Killjoy-NL
Member
Reality happened.
People were just too busy accusing anyone who said this was going to happen of being Playstation fanboys.
StereoVsn
Member
“Every Office 365 Home customer now has bundled GamePass Core option. Xbox GamePass has reached 200 million people”!
alphachino
Member
and soon, it won't exist.
Dick Jones
Gold Member
EX BOX
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
TBF SIE did have some sales promotions across Europe in the first half of this year. I remember seeing threads and articles about them once every few weeks. They never lasted for an extended period of time, but they did do multiple promos across the continent.
AFAIK no such things in America, or places like Japan. Japanese numbers have improved past few weeks tho, probably due to Geshin Impact & ZZZ.
Daniel_Mallorca1985
Member
King Dazzar
Member
Poor Xbox. To help them out, I just bought an XSX again!
I'm afraid it was second hand though 
Last edited:
Codeblew
Member
What a Chad.PS Triple guy must be happy right about now.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
!
Last edited:
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
From Installbase
Dear lord...any idea how much Europe (non-UK) typically accounts for Xbox sales? I've seen the estimates of Series at ~ 14 million in the US; out of what's at best a 26-27 million install base for now, that's over 50% for the US. UK is probably like 10%? That leaves ~ 35% between rest of Europe, Asia, and ROTW.
Luminoth-4545
help out if you can.Anyway this is just a long way of saying that if the market percentages are near accurate regarding the region weights, it's very possible Xbox Series X & S haven't even sold much beyond 600K consoles...worldwide...in the first six months of this year. These are deathbed numbers for a console. Those are worst than Dreamcast and Gamecube in their worst periods, it's closer to some 3DO or 32X type of numbers. Series X & S could get outsold by the Steam Deck this year o.0
If it is really that bad, there is zero chance the next Xbox systems will be regular consoles. There's no market for them anymore with that approach. Hence the Xbox-PC like, OEM etc. rumors make so much sense. Even an Xbox handheld has more of a chance than a repeat of Series X & S. But their next systems can't be locked down to just Xbox Store and Game Pass if they want to have any chance of decent success, either, which is probably why they've openly talked about wanting Steam on there.
Also those next systems are definitely going to be priced for upfront profits Day 1. I don't think you're getting a PS6-level next-gen Xbox device unless you pay $1,000 for it...or you get it for $300 - $400 cheaper while locked in to a couple years of Game Pass Ultimate. At least you might be able to upgrade it over time and use Windows apps, that should give it some kind of appeal.
Last edited:
UltimaKilo
Gold Member
The EU bloc is struggling economically, at the moment, so this is to surprise. Couple that in with the lack of new software, an aging Switch and increased market saturation, these are the results.
I’ll also point out that the younger generation have very little interest in dedicated consoles, unfortunately.
I’ll also point out that the younger generation have very little interest in dedicated consoles, unfortunately.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
If I was Phil Spencer, I would hand in my resignation out of shame.From Installbase
But Phil Spencer has no shame.
Sony has turned into a profit first company. There was an article about this recently. They dont care about anything other than maxing out profits. Past gens they wouldve cared about maxing out the install base, PS+ subs, market share but this time around they only care about short term profits. Consoles are an investment, both for them and for us consumers. This short term strategy is simply not going to pay off. They got lucky this time with phil completely dropping the ball but if nintendo can ship a series s equivalent system that can play multiplat games then i worry about sony competing with them and losing every month for the last 4 years of the gen.
Astray
Member
Fucking insane to me that PS5 is outselling Xbox Series by an almost 10-to-1 factor.From Installbase
>turned
Bro they are always, ALWAYS a profit first company.
Spitfire098
Member
Third even after that June showcase...
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
if they were always a profit first company they wouldnt be selling hardware at a loss for 25 fucking years.Fucking insane to me that PS5 is outselling Xbox Series by an almost 10-to-1 factor.
>turned
Bro they are always, ALWAYS a profit first company.
The Phil Pincer maneuver. People complaining about the Series S were called concern trolls and it was apparently going to make headway in MS sales ratio:
To make a profit on it. It's called a loss leader. They were still a for profit company. They didn't just decide to make profit now. The only reason they may stop taking a loss on hardware is if sales of games have reached too low an amount to offset that loss, because people buy new hardware, at a loss to them, to mostly play GaaS games they bought 2 gens ago, f2p games, or complain about buying games at $60-70 and go for a subscription where they own nothing. The world has changed, their goal hasn't. It was always to make a profit.
Topher
Gold Member
Third even after that June showcase...
Disregard
Last edited:
GHG
Gold Member
The whole business model revolves around selling hardware at a loss and then making profits on software.
Hardware is a low margin business, software is high margin. Or do you want them to be more like Apple where they also make upwards of 50% profit per hardware unit sold?
The numbers are inclusive of June I believe.
Last edited:
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Its not that serious... what you are saying is basically an impossibility.
And regardless of how we feel about it, their strategy... IS working. The PS5, launch-aligned, is more profitable than the PS4, and sales-wise, its not that far behind it. They have basically realized that they would reach 100M+ sales regardless, and by all indications, believe they do not need to sell at break-even costs or even take a loss on hardware to do it.
And contrary to what you may think, what they are doing is anything but a short-term strategy. The fact they are holding off a price drop for as long as possible is actually evidence of that. By the time a new switch comes out, which will be at best as powerful as a PS4 (yes, PS4, not a PS4pro), you should be able to have a PS5 for around $300. Sony would be fine.
Their current pricing strategy, just tells me that they have no intentions on making a PS6 in 6-7 years, but are instead probably going to leave the PS5 on the market as their primary console for 8-10 years. And there is nothing wrong with that especially when you consider that in 2024 we are still seeing releases on the last-gen consoles.
Besides, they started off this gen selling hardware at a loss (as they have always done), the only difference is that they are no longer passing on hardware revision savings to the consumer by reducing the price of the console. Not saying they won't do it, but I can understand why they do not see the need to do it yet. Like think about it, they are outselling their primary rival emphatically... what reason do they have to try and grow their install base now aggressively?
Last edited:
BigLee74
Member
Hey sad fuck! How old was that post you dragged up there?
Some of you guys are genuinely worrying!
GHG
Gold Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Eh, not every month of the last four years of this gen, I don't think that's even statistically possible. But I guess you'll see more a repeat of PS4/Switch where there were many months of Switch being #1 and some months of PS4 (then PS5) being #1, focusing on Western territories here.
I'd expect it to be fairly close between them even with SIE's focus on profit margins, so in terms of units moved in Europe and American it could easily be close to 50:50 between if it's PS or Switch 2 being #1 for the month. PS5 will probably have the slight advantage due to PS5 Pro and having more games, but their numbers for production will gradually reduce YoY going forward as per normal anyway, while Switch 2 probably won't hit its peak volume production until its 3rd year on the market.
For dollar revenue though, it'll be hard for Switch 2 to outdo PS5 & PS5 Pro combined in any given month, but they may be able to in like the last year or so of PS5's commercial life (before PS6 releases) because that's when number of units produced & pricing per unit should be low enough for Switch 2 to leap ahead in unit revenue. They'd just need to have a decent number of units produced and I doubt Nintendo does any price cut at that time anyway.
Well I agree that SIE's pricing strategy isn't short-term and in fact it's more reflective of Nintendo's pricing strategy; if you condition the market to accept at a certain price long enough they will naturally capitulate and accept that as the normal price. As long as the value you bring in quality is great, there's nothing really to worry about long-term barring some complete economic collapse.
However I do think there are parts of the strategy which are arguably short-term. One being, if they want to get into more family-friendly spaces and get more families into the PlayStation ecosystem, that should ultimately be driving them towards their hardware, but they don't have hardware at a price point I think a lot of families would be interested jumping in at. Since the price drops of older gens aren't happening anymore, those families who are of mostly more casual & mainstream gamers, will have less incentive later in the gen to buy in. Although what constitutes a "jump-in" price for them is relative; I think they are willing to pay more these days than say back in the '00s, and in terms of value they may see $299 as the new $199 if the brand is strong enough (which PlayStation is, and Xbox definitely isn't hence why Series S's price did not work in its favor once the pandemic ended).
The other being, SIE still need to find a way to increase PS Portal stock, and probably enable cloud gaming that doesn't require having a PS5 to use it. I still think a PS4 Portable would've been ultimately better, but the Portal does have its use-cases. I think in light of price cuts not being as normal as gens past, PS Portal could serve as a gateway for PS4 holdouts and more price-conscious casuals & mainstreamers to jump into the PS5 ecosystem through a point of access SIE still controls as they would the PS5 itself. Ironically, I think if anyone is in a good position to make cloud gaming appealing as an alternative access point, a way to play games and catering to less-hardcore/core gamers while still being a benefit to them as well, it's not Microsoft: it's Sony.
I think Microsoft are in the same problem area Google was earlier with Stadia: cloud gaming on its own isn't big enough to carry an entire brand, you need some hardware on the market to pair it with that people already know and are familiar with. Google tried it with very not-gaming-orientated Chromebooks; in addition to the issues with their business model, that was just another bullet to the head. For Microsoft, Xbox as a console is effectively dead in the market, it has no viable commercial future. That's why they're trying to push xCloud now through GeForce Now, Amazon Fire sticks etc.; while those may be very well-known devices/services, Fire sticks aren't associated by the masses with gaming and GeForce Now is hardware-agnostic & associated with PCs. Geforce Now's also its own cloud gaming service so that overshadows xCloud :S.
SIE/Sony don't have any of these problems: PlayStation consoles are arguably the most mainstream gaming brand (alongside Nintendo) in the world (or most of the world), and they are the authority on that point-of-access. The PS Portal basically has the potential to do what Microsoft wanted the Series S to accomplish, but actually succeed at it: be a lower-cost entry point to the new generation gaming ecosystem for last-gen holdouts, casuals and mainstream gamers. Again, they just have to bring cloud gaming to the device and get production numbers higher. Remote Play with PS4 would be nice but probably not technologically feasible. Plus, PS4 owners could just redeem games through their account as long as they still own them. The only other thing they might need is a PS Premium subscription.
I have to wonder if this is something SIE are working on and if so, I would actually think there won't be a price cut to a $299 PS5 by the time Switch 2 releases. I also kinda disagree Switch 2 will "only" be as capable as base PS4 especially considering it will have DLSS 3.1 and other modern features built-in and optimized for it, but that's all regarding Switch 2 worth touching on here
yazenov
Member
Mibu no ookami
Member
Sony is still selling hardware at a loss. They're just not willing to sell at a greater loss in order to sell additional units. And why would you before GTA6 releases anyways.
I think the Switch 2 drops for either 350 or 400 and we won't see a PS5 Digital cheaper than a Switch 2 for quite some time. Maybe Spring/Summer 2026, so quite frankly two years from now.
I agree we won't see the PS6 that soon, especially if Microsoft shifts its business model outside of traditional consoles.
However I do think there are parts of the strategy which are arguably short-term. One being, if they want to get into more family-friendly spaces and get more families into the PlayStation ecosystem, that should ultimately be driving them towards their hardware, but they don't have hardware at a price point I think a lot of families would be interested jumping in at. Since the price drops of older gens aren't happening anymore, those families who are of mostly more casual & mainstream gamers, will have less incentive later in the gen to buy in. Although what constitutes a "jump-in" price for them is relative; I think they are willing to pay more these days than say back in the '00s, and in terms of value they may see $299 as the new $199 if the brand is strong enough (which PlayStation is, and Xbox definitely isn't hence why Series S's price did not work in its favor once the pandemic ended).
The other being, SIE still need to find a way to increase PS Portal stock, and probably enable cloud gaming that doesn't require having a PS5 to use it. I still think a PS4 Portable would've been ultimately better, but the Portal does have its use-cases. I think in light of price cuts not being as normal as gens past, PS Portal could serve as a gateway for PS4 holdouts and more price-conscious casuals & mainstreamers to jump into the PS5 ecosystem through a point of access SIE still controls as they would the PS5 itself. Ironically, I think if anyone is in a good position to make cloud gaming appealing as an alternative access point, a way to play games and catering to less-hardcore/core gamers while still being a benefit to them as well, it's not Microsoft: it's Sony.
I think Microsoft are in the same problem area Google was earlier with Stadia: cloud gaming on its own isn't big enough to carry an entire brand, you need some hardware on the market to pair it with that people already know and are familiar with. Google tried it with very not-gaming-orientated Chromebooks; in addition to the issues with their business model, that was just another bullet to the head. For Microsoft, Xbox as a console is effectively dead in the market, it has no viable commercial future. That's why they're trying to push xCloud now through GeForce Now, Amazon Fire sticks etc.; while those may be very well-known devices/services, Fire sticks aren't associated by the masses with gaming and GeForce Now is hardware-agnostic & associated with PCs. Geforce Now's also its own cloud gaming service so that overshadows xCloud :S.
SIE/Sony don't have any of these problems: PlayStation consoles are arguably the most mainstream gaming brand (alongside Nintendo) in the world (or most of the world), and they are the authority on that point-of-access. The PS Portal basically has the potential to do what Microsoft wanted the Series S to accomplish, but actually succeed at it: be a lower-cost entry point to the new generation gaming ecosystem for last-gen holdouts, casuals and mainstream gamers. Again, they just have to bring cloud gaming to the device and get production numbers higher. Remote Play with PS4 would be nice but probably not technologically feasible. Plus, PS4 owners could just redeem games through their account as long as they still own them. The only other thing they might need is a PS Premium subscription.
I have to wonder if this is something SIE are working on and if so, I would actually think there won't be a price cut to a $299 PS5 by the time Switch 2 releases. I also kinda disagree Switch 2 will "only" be as capable as base PS4 especially considering it will have DLSS 3.1 and other modern features built-in and optimized for it, but that's all regarding Switch 2 worth touching on here
You're still thinking short term though. Sony doesn't need to be competitive with Nintendo in the family market right away. They can wait until 2026 to drop the price of the PS5 digital to 300-350 dollars. Building that family friendly catalog BEFORE then will pay dividends. Especially if you do something and release an Astrobot movie and do transmedia marketing for the game that is already on the market. So you build the library now and sell those games down the line.
PS Portal also an option to push for kids. Metrics probably show that kids mostly play the Switch at home anyways. Once they update it to support cloud gaming, you won't even need to buy a PS5. Just subscribe to PS+ and play via cloud. Nishino did mention that cloud could come to Portal, but I'm confused on what the hold up is.
PS Portal stock is fine. The demand isn't nearly that high, though as I said cloud might change that. It also gives us an idea of how much a PS Portable might cost. We're looking at probably 450-500 which probably isn't family friendly from day 1.
Take a guess BigBrainLee:
And don't take it personally. If somebody told you that Series S wasn't a great idea and they predicted 10:1 sales in favour of PS5 you would have called them concern trolls back then.
Last edited:
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
From Installbase
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
No evidence of that.
It has been profitable since at least Aug. 2021.
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22015306/vpavic_4278_20201030_0292.jpg)
Sony’s $499 PS5 is no longer selling at a loss
The PS5 won’t be costly like the PS3.
www.theverge.com
Mibu no ookami
Member
No evidence of that.
It has been profitable since at least Aug. 2021.
Sony’s $499 PS5 is no longer selling at a loss
The PS5 won’t be costly like the PS3.
Page 9
FY2024 Forecast (year-on-year)
Operating Income
Decrease in hardware losses due to lower unit sales
Physiognomonics
Member
In Europe PS5 is still ridiculously expensive. This thing costs twice the price of a Switch. Their result by revenue is surely reaching records even accounting for inflation. I think they are going too far there with their pricing strategy. At some point most people will be pushed to PC gaming and they won't go back to consoles. Thankefully for Sony owning a powerful PC is still even more expensive.