Frustrated_Grunt
Member
I wonder how much those corner ads pay in comparison to regular ads.
I don't want football to die out here, but I still love that mls is growing. Games are damn entertaining.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
76 of 79 Deceased NFL Players Found to Have Brain Disease
- Thread starter Esch
- Start date
- Status
I don't want football to die out here, but I still love that mls is growing. Games are damn entertaining.
The commercials are on the field in soccer. NFL teams don't have advertising on the jerseys outside of the manufacturer.
GameGuru59
Banned
Really? That's the "only reason"? And while opinions are subective, its also pretty easy to measure them: http://blogs.marketwatch.com/themar...icans-still-dont-care-about-soccer-poll-says/
Your argument is like saying Japanese RPGs aren't as popular in America as FPS games because Japanese companies bungled the development of their games. No, the answer is that the culture is simply different. Baseball is relatively more popular in Japan than it is here in America. Basketball is extremely popular in China but not in Japan. Rugby and Cricket are popular in Austrailia and few other places but not most of the world. Different sports for different folks.
While the growing number of hispanics in America are making soccer more popular, I feel its real lack of popularity has to do with the fact it doesn't provide the same level of drama as football. Even basketball, a sport that grew up around the same time as football isn't as popular because it simply doesn't have as many "do or die" moments as football. These do or die moments is what feeds football's entertainment value. Though not as popular, Basketball is a running sport that allows for many changes in advantage depending on who's got momentum at any given time. Momentum changes are easily tracked over time via the fact teams are constantly scoring baskets. The fact you get an intersparsed 3 pointer or dunk helps with this level of excitement.
Soccer doesn't really have this. Like basketball, its a running game, but it doesn't have enough scoring to allow for changes in momentum that are easily observed. Soccer's momentum changes are subtle. Then there's the constant climax denial soccer provides everytime somebody gets close to the goal or kicks a corner- that shit gets old after awhile.
I want soccer to succeed in the US. And on some level it is becoming more popular. I was in ATL's airport when the final moments of the World Cup were going on, and people were just standing an watching outside of every availaible restaurant. My sister (whom I was there to pick up) said people were watching it on the airplane as it was flying. Americans (particularly more affluent ones, as the article states) are certainly vaugely interested in soccer. But for the people in that airport, that was probaly one of the very few if only soccer game they will watch all year. We should be under no allusions that large numbers of Americans are going to suddenly start watching soccer in lieu of football and basketball. I think at best, soccer can get about where baseball is if FIFA and MLS executed everything perfectly. That's better than hockey.
Eh, but do those bring the same revenues that NFL televison ads do? And its not like the NFL couldn't do that too. Hell, the NFL does to some extent- where do you think Gatorade jugs came from?
Just a bunch of nebulous talk about drama (which is completely subjective btw) and a WSJ poll? Some ramblings about culture and how people respond to it or not? Why'd you even bother to type all this, lol?
Who claimed Americans are going to start suddenly watching soccer?
I simply said something I believe to be true: that the US's lack of interest in soccer can be attributed to a series of historical power squabbles and shitty leagues. Along with the great depression.
arglebargle
Member
same. their reasoning was that i was too small, which is probably also true. i dont think they had premonitions about all the head injury stuff that has come out more recently.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Obviously it's the most extreme example (as they are the most popular club in the world, possibly) but Chevy is paying like $70 million a year just to put their logo on the Manchester United shirts.
GameGuru59
Banned
This assumes baseball, football, and basketball didn't have shitty leagues. Maybe those leauges weren't as well supported because the bes atheletes simply wanted to play other sports? Or soccer just wasn't as popular? Football in particular was mainly a collegiate sport before the early "NFL". Soccer should have easily been able to thrive amongst rival colleges (especially since it was a much more well established sport). Why didn't soccer just latch onto the natural rivalries amongst colleges?
And we're arguing about why a certain group of people don't like a sport. It should be obvious the argument is subjective. You've stated the (I guess) fact that early soccer leagues and attempts to organize the sport in America were shitty. Why is that? Why did those leagues fail?
College / highschool soccer is decent but it's not a real match for the academy system. I think you are right in one sense about culture that i can agree with: Xenophobia and the 'foreignness' of soccer has definitely posed a big threat to it's development here and has been a historical barrier
I think you might enjoy reading this:
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2010/06/the_secret_history_of_american_soccer.html
and then this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_soccer_in_the_United_States
Other leagues are shitty, but American soccer leagues had several shittastic problems and incarnations through the 19th and 20th century. Bad spending, interactions with FIFA, power struggles etc etc.
The increase in the Hispanic population practically assures that "soccer" will become more and more popular in America. They arent going to get into american football, basketball or hockey in any large or significant numbers.
This is why the soccer TV contract was so expensive this time around, all live sports are getting great numbers for the fees the are being paid. But soccer in particular saw a massive increase, because you have a increasing audience that will be there in 10+ years
Not sure why the arrogant attitude, there was a time where the mere idea that football would surpass baseball in the US would have gotten you laughed out of the local tavern.
This is why the soccer TV contract was so expensive this time around, all live sports are getting great numbers for the fees the are being paid. But soccer in particular saw a massive increase, because you have a increasing audience that will be there in 10+ years
Not sure why the arrogant attitude, there was a time where the mere idea that football would surpass baseball in the US would have gotten you laughed out of the local tavern.
EternalDarko
Member
I wonder if Rugby has any such issues. Don't believe I've ever heard so, plus they don't even wear helmets and pads etc...
Chevrolet sells vehicles in the UK and China.The EPL is surprisingly popular. I don't get the attraction.
_______________________
.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I wasn't questioning why they were doing it I was only pointing out how much money there is to be had with soccer sponsorships.
Manchester United makes more money just from their jerseys ($130 million from manufacturer Adidas and $80 million from jersey sponsor Chevrolet) at $210 million / year, than the New York Yankees team payroll ($204 million / year), or over 3.5 times the current NBA salary cap ($63.2 million)... and that's for a perennial mid-table team!
Yeah soccer is clearly incompatible with capitalism, you may be on to something there...
It almost got banned 100 years ago. Teddy Roosevelt of all people thought it was too barbaric.
No but there are issues there, probably slightly more than soccer.
Baseball has the least amount of issues, but the highest chance of sudden death (beanball- pitchers have the greatest risk of that)
They do have it in Canada, and for NFL practice jerseys. It's coming to the NFL first, then the NBA and NHL. Baseball eventually.
15-20 years. It's going to be banned for minors in the next 5-10 years, and then the talent pool is going to be hit hard at the college level, which is going to severely damage the pro level. I doubt it will ever be banned outright, but in the next 15-20 years, the NFL is going to basically be a semi-pro level league with all the best athletes migrating to other sports.
NekoFever
Member
Ads on shirts and around the pitch don't help the TV companies.
while NFL is life threatening to play and like watching rugby on a shitty buffering stream without ad-block.
Provisionally that would be the answer, but your better helmets would probably be too expensive for the lower levels of football (Pop Warner, middle/high school, smaller colleges)
As far as what sport would succeed football when it declines (even if the CTE problems are solved, decline is inevitable), I vote no sport. I think you'd have what football holds on to, basketball, soccer, and a few other sports all claiming a piece of the pie with no one huge juggernaut.
OldAsUrSock
Banned
No we won't. Not all sports involve physical brutality.
Wish there was data to compare CTE results from players who played before big pads and helmets. What are the brain disease rates for Rugby? My point is perhaps if the players didn't have tons of body armor and helmet on, they wouldn't go throwing around their body and using their head as a tool as much.
GameGuru59
Banned
While I would agree that soccer's bad leagues certainly didn't help the game's development, reading American football's wikipedia page illustrates how much of a juggernaut the game was begining in 1880's: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_football
Crucially, the game's popularity began with colleges, and the natural rivalries that proliferate within that environment. Early in football's development, several soccer-like and rugby-like games were bouncing around college campuses. In fact, very early games were like hybrids of rugby and soccer, where the only way to advance the ball was by kicking. However, American football owes its origins to the several "mob" games that pitted freshmen against sophomores (and other like classes) n large fields of play that resembled a very disorganized game of rugby. The several opportunities for rule changes could have made the game more like soccer with kicking as a means to advance the ball; however, organizers conciously decided to create a sport that appealed to the tastes of their own fans. The creation of downs, the line of scrimmage, the touchdown (based on the early "try" in rugby, and implemented as the primary means of scoring before rugby), and the forward pass were all concious efforts. The game didn't become popular by accident. An appreciation for it grew from the multitude of college players and teams that found it exciting.
Contrast this with soccer, which could have easily taken off on college campuses had college players and their fans wanted to play it. Colleges had no problem appropriating rules and ideas from the just as "foreign" rugby into football. Rather, they simply chose not to play soccer in lieu of football. In fact, the "father of football" and essentially the game's formal designer- Walter Camp, played soccer himself in college. Why didn't he make the game more like soccer (though, from a pacing perspective he sort of did in some ways)? Because he set out to create a new game that appealed to uniquely American tastes.
Soccer, on the other hand (according to the links provided) had to play the more dangerous game of relying on leagues to develop the sport. The fact this was the situation at all points to the sport's relatively low level of popularity in America as a sport. You can't simply chalk it up to 100+ years of xenophobia accross college campuses and the broader American public (especially pre-20th century, when rugby like games were popular). There has to be something else that causes the sport to be unpopular.
To close, all of the 3 big American sports (football, basketball, baseball) were invented (in the case of basketball) or heavily tweaked to suit American tastes. Soccer was already an established sport by this time, and simply did not satisfy the entertainment pallets of Americans in that era. In fact, much of soccer's popularity today is attributed to our growing hispanic population, which imports their appreciation for the game. This is in addition to the advent of youth soccer, which provides a similar base of support among... err established (native?) Americans. Football's declining popularity as a youth sport is a good opportunity for soccer, but its not going to last forever. Football will change itself well before it lets soccer overtake it,
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Thanks
thesoapster
Member
I'm not an expert at all, so this is mainly speculation, but I'd say better helmets is the first step. By better, I mean helmets that are "softer" and have a greater ability to compress internally to absorb shock. This is more similar to how motorcycle helmets are (the source of my speculation) designed. The downside is that one good hit means the helmet cannot absorb shock in that region anymore - it has to be replaced. So, multiple helmets would likely have to be retired each game. Maybe they could figure out a way to refurbish them so they're not wasting as much material. I know it would be more costly, but given the amount of money that's involved I really don't see it being that significant of an expense. Looking around the web, it looks like some types of improved helmets are being considered, but so far nothing has changed.
Hence my point about Xenophobia. BTW american football was not a 'juggernaut' in the 1880s, even the link you provided says the late 50s were a turning point. Coincidentally that was also when talent historically started slowly seeping out of boxing (i'm a big fan of the sport). You keep going on and on about college. Think about it this way, the people most frequently playing soccer in the United States in that crucial ASL/USFA period were immigrants. Did they have the financial pull to go to college? Or even school in general? Soccer here, and in its birthplace, came from places like industry where poor workers and rich investors came together to make teams. If you read that link, you'd have noticed that soccer was actually decently popular in the 20s here.
Basically at no point did I ever say anything about soccer overtaking or destroying football. You invented this whole narrative on your own, saying that the NFL will never fall etc. People merely responded to you that nothing is permanent, especially wrt to a decently expensive sport that we now know has a marked effect on brain condition and maybe even overall life expectancy, seeing how early NFL players die on average.
I love the NFL. I still go to see my Rams despite years of incompetence. I played the game in high school for 4 years.. But at some point you have to take a step back and see that this doesn't bode well for long term viability.
Frustrated_me
Member
Nothing is as exciting as a weekend EPL derby or an exciting rivalry match between two UCL teams. Football (as in soccer to you Yanks) is incredibly exciting when you get to learn it. I encourage you guys who don't watch it to pick a team in the EPL and follow them as much as you can. The learning curve may be steep (different leagues, different cups, etc) but the payoff is worth it.
This is the same reason I don't watch the NHL - I find the fighting threw me off. It's too barbaric for me.
This is the same reason I don't watch the NHL - I find the fighting threw me off. It's too barbaric for me.
Watching now and it's convincing me that my decision to no longer support football is the correct one. I just can't watch this sport and feel good about myself knowing that the majority of these players are in for a lifetime of pain and suffering. I hope they find changes that protect these athletes, but until they do I will abstain.
Professional football will never be banned in the USA. It is way too ingrained in the culture. It's a game where people get smashed and that means there is no real way to play safe regardless of equipment. It's just how it is. People will have to decide for themselves if the risk is worth it if they want to play and make it a career.
...but advertising is shown during games. Not traditional 30-second commercials, but there is advertising on the field, and on the feed.
Football/soccer isn't the biggest sport in the world because of the good will of TV stations, you know.
GoldenEye 007
Member
I see. Yeah, I imagine then if the level of scrutiny that is applied to American football is applied to other similar sports like rugby, the results wouldn't be to divergent.
You always get screwed when you cover up like the NFL did decades ago. Should have addressed it then and allowed players fully and explicitly know what they were getting into. Probably wouldn't be as much of an issue as it is now and will be moving forward.
GameGuru59
Banned
The first post I made in this thread essentially said football will have to change, and I went about suggesting ways that it could. My point in saying it would 'never' fall (at least not in the forseeable future) is based on its deep entrenchment collegic culture. Which, in the end I feel is more important to the long term viability of the sport than even the NFL (at the moment, this could change if college players have to be paid- which is something I feel should happen too). The greatest threat to football is really basketball. However, its sort of difficult to build a social apparatus around basketball in the way that we do football. Its hard to fit bands, drum-majors, dance squads, flag girls, cheerleaders, and grills into a basketball game.
And football was a juggernaunt in the 1880's, just not outside of colleges. It took awhile for the NFL to catch up. My alma mater, an HBCU, played college games dating back to 1885 or so- and to this day plays in classics dating back to that time. College laid a solid fondation for football and the sport built up from that. Past the 1880's very little could be done to stop the popularity of football in colleges. Even then, stadiums were being constructed exclusively or primarily for football.
ChainedMaster
Banned
When you're rich, you have the money to fight off deadly and crippling diseases. The most notable example of course being Miracle Johnson. NFL players are notoriously unhealthy, but they have money.
Who says there has to be. It isn't enough that due to low entry of cost kids can pick up a b-ball and play on the street whenever they want? It's that ease of access that ultimately means more than any number of tailgates.
You can't call it a 'juggernaut' if it's not in the top tier, the most or 2nd most dominant professional league. Baseball was more popular. Boxing was king. The big turning point was television and the late 50s.
CTE exists in soccer as well.
Collisions exist in soccer through headers/tackling. While there are less of those collisions per game, since there's so many games they add up.
The college sport was more popular than the NFL product until the pros beat the four horseman of Notre Dame back in the day. It's just NFL is associated with big cities and college football is associated with non big cities.
They play AT LEAST 15.
The data isn't there for Rugby/Soccer players since the studies are predominantly American.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/s...i-is-found-to-have-had-brain-trauma.html?_r=0
On your helmet issue, initial data suggests its not true.
Nikodemos
Member
As a generally cynical person, I think NFL in its current form will die a slow death. The people behind it will be too afraid of losing dat payola due to the "They changed so now it sucks" effect, thus will refrain from implementing qualitative changes (i.e. rules). They will instead go for quantitative ones (better, more expensive equipment) with the unintended consequence of locking out less-wealthy high-schools and colleges (who will instead opt for cheaper team games, like soccer or even volley, which is pretty much the cheapest team game out there). Coupled with parents being less willing to send their kids to football practice, it will dry up the potential talent pool.
njean777
Member
I see soccer, basketball becoming far more popular. Both sports are far safer and if more parents start hearing about the problems of tackle football I can see a lot more kids playing basketball and soccer.
I'm at the point where I think tackle football should be banned until college. Even in HS it should be touch only.
Randy Monk
Member
Stupid sport with stupid rules where a majority of the players line up to smash each every play. Wearing helmets making it worse since you can hit harder.
The numbers will only get higher.
Why would any parent want their kid to play this "game"
The numbers will only get higher.
Why would any parent want their kid to play this "game"
StreetsAhead
Member
I can think of at least one other thing that the US has banned that was ingrained in the culture.
Besides, if a serious dangerous link is proven and that makes more parents stop kids playing, it could have a long-term effect to the point where it doesn't need to be banned.
Well first tell me what you're talking about. What other thing?
Also you're wrong about parents and kids. A lot of times football players come from very improvished backgrounds. The chance at fame,glory and money means it's unlikely there will be any shortage of availble players.
This is real cause for #concern (lol sorry) but in all seriousness my knowledge on this is limited, I remember watching any given sunday and thinking wtf.
But a couple of questions is this also a common theme in boxing and ufc? Why is it so prevalent in NFL and not other support and surely there must be some protection for the players.
But a couple of questions is this also a common theme in boxing and ufc? Why is it so prevalent in NFL and not other support and surely there must be some protection for the players.
Give War A Chance
Member
A lot of the better, upper-echelon players in the sport don't have parents that will stop them from playing. For those kids, it is very close to (if not) their only means of escaping the terrible impoverished situations in which they are from. It would be problematic parents did stop allowing their kids to play, but I don't think it would end the sport, outright.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked