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A Trip Down Memory Lane (How EA Ruined The Def Jam Fighting Games)

I still remember reading the first previews of Def Jam Vendetta back in 2002, and I was so hyped. FINALLY a company got off their asses and gave one of the BEST wrestling developers (AKI, now Syn Sophia) a title to make. They hadn't put out a North American wrestling title since No Mercy back in 2000 on the N64, and it was about time.

But the people were skeptical. "A wrestling game with rappers? What a dumb idea" the idiots yelled from the hills. "Look at the over the top finishers. What happened to the AKI of old?" the wrestling fans proclaimed.

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TRAILER

Then this bad boy released on March 31, 2003. What a glorious day. Sure, it was a bit light on modes and match types, but the animation was great, the controls were snappy as hell, the finishers were insane, and the classic AKI engine was intact and as good as ever, albeit very arcady.

Featuring up to 4 players in any combo of one v one, tag team, or handicap matches, and using winning stipulation such as pinning, submissions, or KOs, it was still very much a wrestling game at heart. The personalities were big, the character models were great, and the venues were nice to look at. The soundtrack was solid as well as long as you were a fan of Hip-Hop.

Fun game. Time for a sequel.

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TRAILER/INTRO


Released on September 20, 2004, a year 1/2 after the first game, and change was in the air. The game was rated M, the personalities were bigger, the lines were uncut, the animations were even more over the top and fluid, the venues were interactive, weapons were available and handed to you from the crowd, destructible environments, a better story, create-a-character, different fighting styles, the ability to MIX fighting styles, a bunch of different new match types, etc. etc. etc. It. Was. Great.

Still able to have up to 4 players in the match, and still able to win by KO and Submission (among other means) you would think it was still a wrestling title...Only a little bit. Pins were removed and the grappling system was altered a bit, there was a much bigger emphasis on Mixed Martial Arts, weapons were encouraged, tons of hot spots at all the venues, on and on. It become much more of a fighter, but was still extremely unique. Probably the closest we have come to a legit Fight Club style game. Create a character allowed you to make a custom fighting style mixing 2 styles of either Wrestling, Submissions, Street Fighting, Kickboxing, or Martial Arts. Some beautiful stuff was possible.

The Story was better, Snoop Dogg, and Busta Rhymes gave some good performances, the lip syncing was great for its time, and there were a lot of unique fights that came out of the situations your character was put in. Lots of cameos from a TON more rappers was very cool as well.

Time for a sequel, can't WAIT to see what AKI does with the new consoles right? WRONG.

I first read the preview reveal in Game Informer, and honest to God truth, my first reaction to seeing that AKI wasn't used, and the new devs were EA Chicago was:

"WHAT..........THE.........HELL........This game is going to suck!"




Guess what? I was right.

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This piece of crap released on March 6th, 2007, and only gets one picture. The MOMENT the first gameplay trailers went out, I KNEW the series was dead. Not only did they hand it off to EA Chicago who's Fight Night games have the slowest and least powerful punches known to man, they come up with this realistic looking graphics style, REMOVED THE BLAZIN FINISHERS, AND FOCUSED ON FIGHTING TO MATCH THE ENVIRONMENT WHICH WAS BUMPING TO THE BEAT OF WHATEVER SONG WAS PLAYING AT THE TIME. Grapples and fluid combos were gone, the animations were stiff as a dead body, and the rapper selection sucked ass.

Kudo Tsunoda, the game's executive producer and face of the dev team, was from that point my enemy.

The fact that it didn't get lower review scores was a travesty. The demo released, everyone hated it and wondered "What the hell did EA do?" EA messed up is what EA did. Crap, crap, crap. The series has been dead since that point, and there looks to be no return in sight. EA had something great on their hands, and with the current generation of consoles, AKI could've made something incredible. Talk about a bad move.

Random thread? Hell yeah, but I needed to get that off my chest. Feel free to post your love for the first 2 games, your hate for the 3rd, and let your voices be heard so that EA knows that they messed up.

They messed up big.
 
the 3rd was frustrating.

I could of swore in the 2nd you could combine 3 fighting styles....I played that game too much. I'm done with it though, it's depressing that the 3rd was so garbage. Only thing good about it was how it fixed the dialogue of part 2, that game had a M-rating but all the songs and most of the cuss words were censored. :lol :lol
I was actually thinking about how they could resurrect the series, but I don't think modern EA would do it right.....eh maybe EA partners?

Definitely needs more female fighters. Can you imagine a new one with a playable Nicki Minaj? :lol
I love how Shawnna shouted out Wild 100s in the 2nd one before her finisher, that is some strictly Chicago hood shit right there.
 

RJT

Member
It's a shame... I'm a huge hip-hop fan, but never owned a console prior do this generation (PC master race, baby!). I used to look at these game and drool. Now I have a PS3, and there's no good Def Jam titles... It´s a shame..
 

Messi

Member
I used to love the first 2 def jam game and I was so hyped for icon, it nearly crushed me when it was as bad as it was.

Imagine a proper sequel now, it could even have kanye in it :lol I assume that licence was fairly expensive.

Fuck you kudo!
 
They didn't even have Jay-Z in the last one, and he was the president of Def Jam then :lol I remember AHH buzzing because Jim Jones was in it and they had a beef at the time.
Do they know how much money they could make out of beefs alone? Real life Marvel vs Capcom.
 

Messi

Member
akilshohen said:
They didn't even have Jay-Z in the last one, and he was the president of Def Jam then :lol I remember AHH buzzing because Jim Jones was in it and they had a beef at the time.
Do they know how much money they could make out of beefs alone? Real life Marvel vs Capcom.

But but but... it had lil jon.
 

NameGenerated

Who paid you to grab Dr. Pavel?
Def Jam Vendetta was great. I didn't know who like any of the rappers were besides a few, but it was way fun. Never played FFNY, but the ICON demo was horrible.
 

Hypno Funk

Member
Played the first two - loved them like most of the games EA:BIG put out then.

Played the Icon demo and just didn't feel it at all.
 

Borman

Member
V_Ben said:
:O You're THAT Borman... awesome.
Yep yep. The game was obviously early as all hell, so I wouldn't read into it too much. Theres a debug menu in the game as well, but I didn't find that until my 360 was near death :p
 

MMaRsu

Member
I really don't understand how you could screw up such a great series. I'm sure all people involved in the first two games were happy about them? Didn't they do pretty good sales wise too?

There are so many people who liked the first two games, even casual gamers.
 
MMaRsu said:
There are so many people who liked the first two games, even casual gamers.

That's the thing, I knew a bunch of people who weren't deep into wrestling games, or fighters, yet they enjoyed the first 2 games a lot, especially in 4 player Free For Alls. They went and changed developers, and overhauled something that didn't need to be reinvented, or handed off to a different team. Unless there were some major internal problems between the AKI team, and the people at EA that couldn't be resolved, I truly don't understand the change.
 

Princess Skittles

Prince's's 'Skittle's
Fight for New York is such a great guilty pleasure.

It was brought to my attention by a friend who was really into the N64 wrestling games, I think.
 
The entire OP reminds me of what EA is now trying to do with the SSX franchise. They are taking a franchise that is great because it is over the top in both gameplay and personality and trying to make a more serious game out of it.

Why? I dont know. It seems to me that if you want to make that type of game you should create a new franchise to do it. The changes just piss off existing fans and a large part wont buy the new game. And the kinds of players who are part of the new audience you are looking for will look at the name and associate it with the old style that they never liked in the first place. Sales wise you kill yourself on both ends of the spectrum.
 
I <3 Memes said:
The entire OP reminds me of what EA is now trying to do with the SSX franchise. They are taking a franchise that is great because it is over the top in both gameplay and personality and trying to make a more serious game out of it.

The whole time I'm typing the OP, I was thinking to myself "God I hope I'm not making one of these for SSX in 4 years." You read my mind.

Azih said:
Does AKI even exist anymore?

They're called Syn Sopia now: http://www.syn-sophia.co.jp/

I've read numerous times that they've responded to fan e-mails saying that they'd love to make more wrestling games, but don't have any studios asking.
 
Net_Wrecker said:
The whole time I'm typing the OP, I was thinking to myself "God I hope I'm not making one of these for SSX in 4 years." You read my mind.
Look on the bright side. If a game is going to bomb "Deadly Descents" is probably one of the best names it could possible have.
 
I spent a ridiculous amount of time playing Def Jam: Fight For New York. Played through the single player numerous times and countless multiplayer match-ups with so much smacktalk between my friends and I. So fun!

Then Icon came out and I was so disappointed. What a shame. Should have just been called Def Jam:FUCK YOU FANS OF THE SERIES!
 

Nabs

Member
EA likes doing this shit. Did it with the NBA Live series as well.


Sigh. Both games are great. Got them for 5 each when the record store closed in town. Played Icon for a bit and wanted to throw up.
 

Nemo

Will Eat Your Children
I still pop in the PSP version of NY every now and then.

Truly a ruined series

Azih said:
Does AKI even exist anymore?
They made Ready 2 Rumble: Revolution, but I think it sucked

Net_Wrecker said:
I've read numerous times that they've responded to fan e-mails saying that they'd love to make more wrestling games, but don't have any studios asking.
Oh god, this hurts me :(
 

Kingpen

Member
Loved everything in the OP and agree..


I had to go out and track down a wavebird and a copy of DJ FFNY to have with my Wii (I know I have the worst controlling version, but it is the only way for me to play this game with the systems I have, and it is so good, I just HAVE TO HAVE IT).

DJ FFNY is probably my top game of last gen, or at least right there with F-Zero GX.
 
Net_Wrecker said:
I've read numerous times that they've responded to fan e-mails saying that they'd love to make more wrestling games, but don't have any studios asking.

This is just mind boggling. Weren't all of AKI's wrestling games very popular? Why the hell wouldn't THQ ask them to develop one of their new wrestling franchises? They'll soon have 4 different WWE games.
 
SolidSnakex said:
This is just mind boggling. Weren't all of AKI's wrestling games very popular? Why the hell wouldn't THQ ask them to develop one of their new wrestling franchises? They'll soon have 4 different WWE games.

I don't get it man. The only things I can think of is that THQ wants Smackdown to have a chokehold (no pun intended) on the wrestling game genre which they pretty much do, and they have a great relationship with the guys at Yukes.

We had a shot with the TNA Impact game, but they went to MIDWAY like that was a smart idea instead of a proven dev like Syn Sophia (AKI).
 

Don

Member
Vendetta and FFNY were both amazing games. They were probably my favourite multiplayer games on the PS2.

I remember looking forward to Icon until I played the demo. Such a disappointment. Everything about it just felt wrong.

A real sequel to FFNY would be great.

Is the PSP version of FFNY any good?
 

Teknoman

Member
Fight for New York and Vendetta were great fighting games in that:

A.) They were really fun and over the top
B.) Had great graphics and sound effects
C.) Were fun even if you werent a fan of rap or hip hop, and if you were, made that games even better.

Not sure why EA didnt just take the Fight for New York style to the next level in HD. Felt like a real crazy brawler.

I <3 Memes said:
The entire OP reminds me of what EA is now trying to do with the SSX franchise. They are taking a franchise that is great because it is over the top in both gameplay and personality and trying to make a more serious game out of it.

Why? I dont know. It seems to me that if you want to make that type of game you should create a new franchise to do it. The changes just piss off existing fans and a large part wont buy the new game. And the kinds of players who are part of the new audience you are looking for will look at the name and associate it with the old style that they never liked in the first place. Sales wise you kill yourself on both ends of the spectrum.

I dunno, Icon didnt really seem that serious when you look at the game in action/think about the gameplay mechanics. It just wasnt fun/was too sluggish.
 

WaltJay

Member
I loved the first two, especially FFNY. I finished the story mode in one sitting. I even replayed the whole thing once it came to PSP. It's easily one of my all-time favorite games.

Icon took the two things that didn't need fixing (the look and the fighting system) and turned them into weaknesses. If they just made FFNY in HD with a few tweaks and new rappers I would have been happy.

Honestly, the new look didn't bother me that much, but I preferred the cartoon/stylized look of the first two. But man, the fighting system was a train wreck.

I still played Icon and had some fun with it, but it shouldn't even be considered part of the same series. It's more Fight Night than Def Jam.

Is the PSP version of FFNY any good?

It's basically the same game as the PS2 version, so yes! :D
 
Net_Wrecker said:
I don't get it man. The only things I can think of is that THQ wants Smackdown to have a chokehold (no pun intended) on the wrestling game genre which they pretty much do, and they have a great relationship with the guys at Yukes.

They view Smackdown as their realistic wrestling game, so they can still keep that. They have two upcoming wrestling games that are more arcadey. One is WWE All Stars, but they've said that they'll have another one that's also arcadey. We know that some division of THQ is making the All Stars game, but they haven't announced the developer for the second game. It seems like it would be a good fit to have Syn Sophia develop it.

It just blows me away that no one wants to let them develop a wrestling game.
 
I loved the first two, and picked up Icon from a bargain bin for $5 New a couple years ago... and honestly, I didn't think it was all that bad. Sure the fighting system was garbage but I actually liked the idea of fighting to the beat. It's just too bad it wasn't implemented very well at all. :lol

But yeah, if they came out with another one... I'd probably pass, considering the current state of Hip Hop. I'd rather play Icon again than have to listen to recent Hip Hop.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I never got around to playing Fight For NY. Is it still worth it?

Net_Wrecker said:
I've read numerous times that they've responded to fan e-mails saying that they'd love to make more wrestling games, but don't have any studios asking.

That's horrible. I haven't played a single wrestling game since WWF No Mercy, and I still hold WCW vs NWO Revenge - an N64 game, as my favorite of all time. They seriously need to come back and save this genre.
 
SolidSnakex said:
They view Smackdown as their realistic wrestling game, so they can still keep that. They have two upcoming wrestling games that are more arcadey. One is WWE All Stars, but they've said that they'll have another one that's also arcadey. We know that some division of THQ is making the All Stars game, but they haven't announced the developer for the second game. It seems like it would be a good fit to have Syn Sophia develop it.

It just blows me away that no one wants to let them develop a wrestling game.

The guys making the All Stars game are apparently the same guys behind TNA Impact. You can sort of see the same rope rebound physics, and animation techniques in the videos they've released so far so I suspect it's true.

The other game (which is NOT the Asian online game which we barely have any info on) remains a mystery, but i highly doubt it's Syn Sophia.

Interesting sidenote: I read that the team behind Pro-Wrestling X was supposedly very close to licensing the AKI Engine back in 2001/2002 before the Def Jam deal went through, and they (Syn Sophia) STILL have the rights to the engine today but have tucked it deep within the archives for the time being.
 
Net_Wrecker said:
The guys making the All Stars game are apparently the same guys behind TNA Impact. You can sort of see the same rope rebound physics, and animation techniques in the videos they've released so far so I suspect it's true.

It's definitely true. They're also one of the wrestling developers that said that they were inspired by AKI's wrestling games. I haven't see any wrestling developer mention Yukes games as an inspiration.

Net_Wrecker said:
The other game (which is NOT the Asian online game which we barely have any info on) remains a mystery, but i highly doubt it's Syn Sophia.

I doubt that it's them also. I just wish that it was. I'd prefer that they'd develop a more sim style game like their WCW and WWF games, but i'd be all for an arcadey game if it got them back into making wrestling titles.
 
Vendetta and FFNY are classics. I just remember all the time I spent playing it with my brother and my friends. Good times. They both looked good and played great. ICON however was just garbage. I appreciate them trying to experiment with something new but it just didn't work.

Net_Wrecker said:
They're called Syn Sopia now: http://www.syn-sophia.co.jp/

I've read numerous times that they've responded to fan e-mails saying that they'd love to make more wrestling games, but don't have any studios asking.

This has to be a joke or something. Why wouldn't you get the team who revolutionized wrestling games to make yours. Hopefully in the future we'll get to see them making more games. Until then go check out the Kinnikuman Muscle Grand Prix games on the PS2. Whether or not you appreciate the source material syn Sophia killed the gameplay in the series. It'll make you wonder why nobody is giving them work in the genre.
 

Beezy

Member
This thread pisses me off. I loved the first 2 games. The first more, because it was classic AKI wrestling which has always been my favorite.
 

ultim8p00

Banned
The blazing moves in FFNY were amazing. I personally liked when you activated blazing mode and your guy goes YYYYYEEEEAAAAUUUUUHHHHHH!!
 

evangd007

Member
I <3 Memes said:
The entire OP reminds me of what EA is now trying to do with the SSX franchise. They are taking a franchise that is great because it is over the top in both gameplay and personality and trying to make a more serious game out of it.

Why? I dont know. It seems to me that if you want to make that type of game you should create a new franchise to do it. The changes just piss off existing fans and a large part wont buy the new game. And the kinds of players who are part of the new audience you are looking for will look at the name and associate it with the old style that they never liked in the first place. Sales wise you kill yourself on both ends of the spectrum.

Serious business is the "it" thing now. It's unfortunate, and SSX won't be the only casualty. Capcom is doing the same to DmC and I'm still not quite sold on the grimmification of Tomb Raider.
 

MjFrancis

Member
I haven't played Vendetta, but I remember going through Fight for New York on my Xbox when it was released. It was an amazingly fun and entertaining game, even for someone who wasn't particular about the hip-hop aesthetic. It just fit the game, though.

I wanted to like Icon, but it never happened. I played it for a bit after the online servers had already closed, and I could tell why. I doubt that there were a dozen people in the world playing that game by the end of it's run (save for achievement addicts). I actually liked the concept of fighting to a beat, but the execution was horrible. To call the game mechanics sluggish or unresponsive would be an understatement; sometimes moves wouldn't trigger for full seconds after their buttons were pressed - this is commercial death in almost any genre, let alone one that requires frame-counting on expert-level play.

I would be on board with a Def Jam fighter that played more like it's last-gen predecessors, but kept the visual stylization of Icon. The game looked good... but that was about it. At least it also featured E-40. :D

And while we're on the subject, what do people think about Icon turning off the health bars by default? Nice attempt at a HUDless display, or further disregard for how a fighting game is supposed to operate?
 

EYEL1NER

Member
While Icon was the worst in the series and an abomination, on it's own I would have loved it more.
I do like the game and enjoyed playing it. I liked getting to play as Jeezy and T.I. and Sean Paul and remixing the music. The levels moving with the music and stuff was cool. But as a Def Jam fighting game, it was horrible.
 
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