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[Zoe]

Someone that is pro-abortion is someone that promotes the legality of abortion. That is more accurate than "pro-choice" much of the time.

"Pro-abortion" carries with it the interpretation that someone is actively for abortions in any and all situations.

 

[JayDubya]

"Pro-abortion" carries with it the interpretation that someone is actively for abortions in any and all situations.

Not really.

I'm for the legalization of marijuana, that doesn't mean I smoke it or recommend smoking it to everyone.

 

[Zoe]

Not really.

I'm for the legalization of marijuana, that doesn't mean I smoke it or recommend smoking it to everyone.

You're able to say that as someone who is a part of the opposing group and doesn't have to worry about the implications.

 

[JayDubya]

You're able to say that as someone who is a part of the opposing group and doesn't have to worry about the implications.

If accurate terminology has "implications," then you're welcome to them.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

JayDubya is like Howard Roarke in The Fountainhead, except his consistent conviction is about abortion instead of modern architecture.

 

[Zoe]

If accurate terminology has "implications," then you're welcome to them.

There are many people who do not support abortion but are still pro-choice.

 

[permutated]

Having seen a video of childbirth, I'd call that aggression. Not blaming people for not wanting to go through with that, no matter how the creature ended in there.

Post of the year, made me lol.

 

[VeritasVierge]

Someone that is anti-abortion is someone that opposes the legality of abortion. That is more accurate than "pro-life" much of the time.

Someone that is pro-abortion is someone that promotes the legality of abortion. That is more accurate than "pro-choice" much of the time.

What if you are pro-abortion but not pro-choice?

 

[JayDubya]

To put it another way...

Pro-abortion is not truly anti-life as the common nomenclature of their opponents would imply. Anti-abortion is not truly anti-choice as the common nomenclature of their opponents would imply.

Everyone likes "life" and "choice." Almost everyone could reasonably agree that the nature of the debate hinges on what life has value and what choices should be valid.

Few people say all life has value in all circumstances. Few people say all choices should always be valid.

There are many people who do not support abortion but are still pro-choice.

Then you support the continued practice of abortion. If this were, like marijuana use, a victimless crime, supporting the practice would be innocuous.

What if you are pro-abortion but not pro-choice?

Pretty sure that would just make someone a dictatorial homicidal asshat. Why do you ask?

 

[Grug]

To put it another way...

Pro-abortion is not truly anti-life as the common nomenclature of their opponents would imply. Anti-abortion is not truly anti-choice as the common nomenclature of their opponents would imply.

Everyone likes "life" and "choice." Almost everyone could reasonably agree that the nature of the debate hinges on what life has value and what choices should be valid.

Few people say all life has value in all circumstances. Few people say all choices should always be valid.



Then you support the continued practice of abortion. If this were, like marijuana use, a victimless crime, supporting the practice would be innocuous.



Pretty sure that would just make someone a dictatorial homicidal asshat. Why do you ask?

What if you abort your child by smoking copious amounts of marijuana?

 

[JayDubya]

What if you abort your child by smoking copious amounts of marijuana?

Pretty sure that doesn't work.

 

[VeritasVierge]

To put it another way...

Pro-abortion is not truly anti-life as the common nomenclature of their opponents would imply. Anti-abortion is not truly anti-choice as the common nomenclature of their opponents would imply.

Everyone likes "life" and "choice." Almost everyone could reasonably agree that the nature of the debate hinges on what life has value and what choices should be valid.

Few people say all life has value in all circumstances. Few people say all choices should always be valid.

Then you support the continued practice of abortion. If this were like marijuana use, a victimless crime, supporting the practice would be innocuous.

Ok, I finally understand your point of view on this but I disagree because I feel abortion should be legal (pro-abortion) but only in certain circumstances. The idea that it's a woman's body and she has the right to do whatever she wants with it is pure poppycock. The "choice" is not always valid because we know many people have sex carelessly and recklessly so abortion is their way to not face the consequence of their irresponsible action. Problem is there is no way to stop someone from carelessly procreating and putting the child in a rotten environment. or other special and often overlooked circumstances when a would be responsible father has no rights to the child. Unless the woman has some medical condition that endangers her life, I think she should carry the baby to term and give it up.

I guess I see "choice" and pro-abortion as separate things since in the second scenario I provided it really wouldn't be the woman's choice.

 

[faceless007]

The idea that it's a woman's body and she has the right to do whatever she wants with it is pure poppycock.

Wait, WTF? Why the hell not?

 

[Zoe]

Even if abortion becomes illegal, that's not going to mean the end of medically-necessitated abortions.

 

[Grug]

Pretty sure that doesn't work.

It raises an interesting sub-question.

Should a pregnant woman be legally obligated to maintain her body in peak physical condition to ensure the most optimum development of the foetus.

If not, where do you draw the line? Can she legally allow herself to become anorexic to the point where the baby dies?

As a Libertarian, you must be used to hypotheticals like this, but I'm interested in what you think.

 

[VeritasVierge]

Wait, WTF? Why the hell not?

Short answer: It's often used an excuse to be an irresponsible slut.

Long answer: It would at least make people consider being not just more responsible more considerate of the everyone else their decisions affect. It's not just their body it concerns and I don't mean this out of any religious BS. Do you feel the guy with awful body odor has the right to walk around smelling terrible or should he at least shower to be considerate to those around him? Yeah, he can do whatever he wants with himself but it should be limited. Sort of how suicide is often seen as a no-no.

 

[Grug]

Short answer: It's often used an excuse to be an irresponsible slut.

Spoken like a true male chauvanist.

I don't know of any women who consider abortion as a convenient form of contraception.

 

[Zoe]

Short answer: It's often used an excuse to be an irresponsible slut.

Long answer: It would at least make people consider being not just more responsible more considerate of the everyone else their decisions affect. It's not just their body it concerns and I don't mean this out of any religious BS. Do you feel the guy with awful body odor has the right to walk around smelling terrible or should he at least shower to be considerate to those around him? Yeah, he can do whatever he wants with himself but it should be limited. Sort of how suicide is often seen as a no-no.

Both parties in a monogamous relationship use some form of birth control, woman still gets pregnant. Is she not being responsible?

 

[VeritasVierge]

Both parties in a monogamous relationship use some form of birth control, woman still gets pregnant. Is she not being responsible?

Like I said, it should be looked at by a case by case basis. It's not a decision made recklessly by a couple like that and should have the right to do it.

Grug, I wasn't aware I was born with any male genitalia but thanks for informing me.

 

[Juice]

Not really.

I'm for the legalization of marijuana, that doesn't mean I smoke it or recommend smoking it to everyone.

JayDubya: Pro-marijuana.

 

[Zoe]

Like I said, it should be looked at by a case by case basis. It's not a decision made recklessly by a couple like that and should have the right to do it.

That's a slippery slope when you start to go case-by-case.

 

[faceless007]

Short answer: It's often used an excuse to be an irresponsible slut.

I'd like to see some evidence that it's "often" used like that.

Long answer: It would at least make people consider being not just more responsible more considerate of the everyone else their decisions affect.

What other persons does the decision to have an abortion affect, and how is that impact greater than the impact on the woman herself?

It's not just their body it concerns and I don't mean this out of any religious BS. Do you feel the guy with awful body odor has the right to walk around smelling terrible or should he at least shower to be considerate to those around him? Yeah, he can do whatever he wants with himself but it should be limited. Sort of how suicide is often seen as a no-no.

Yes, the guy has the right to not shower. I might not like it, that doesn't mean I get to take away his right. You acknowledge that, then contradict it by saying it "should be limited." By whom, and by what authority?

 

[Grug]

So essentially VeritasVierge is disgusted by the behavior of 'irresponsible sluts' who see abortion as a quick fix.

Therefore we must encourage these irresponsible sluts to raise their children. Clearly they are qualified.

I wish I had an irresponsible slut for a mother.

 

[VeritasVierge]

That's a slippery slope when you start to go case-by-case.

I'm aware and I think that's why there's no such thing as strictly for or against abortion. Too many factors involved and people like JD shouldn't be against it when abortion is the practical choice. I just feel some cases should be looked at closely so I agve him examples of why blanket "no abortion" policy would never work. Even a case by case method would immediately opens up room for abuse. I've seen plenty of that. Although it seems Grug has had the fortune of not spending substantial time around really shitty people.

So essentially VeritasVierge is disgusted by the behavior of 'irresponsible sluts' who see abortion as a quick fix.

Therefore we must encourage these irresponsible sluts to raise their children. Clearly they are qualified.

I wish I had an irresponsible slut for a mother.

I didn't say that at all but was explaining to JD how it's not all so cut and dry.

If it were up to me, said irresponsible sluts would have their ovaries permanently removed.

 

[Grug]

If 'pro-lifers' stopped the moral grandstanding and admonishment of others, and spent that same energy on improving the lives of the unwanted and alone people who are already around, the world would be a much better place.

Go feed some homeless people.

 

[permutated]

Wait, WTF? Why the hell not?

Because as much as people like to have control over their lives, sometimes the things we do out of haste we end up regretting the most.

Having the shock of pregnancy and the thought of an EXIT door just means more people take the easy way out when they shouldn't have gotten themselves in that situation earlier.

 

[VeritasVierge]

If 'pro-lifers' stopped the moral grandstanding and admonishment of others, and spent that same energy on improving the lives of the unwanted and alone people who are already around, the world would be a much better place.

Go feed some homeless people.

I've actually done that and volunteered at a woman's shelter for over a year (which ahd effectively killed my faith in humanity).

I think you are too quick to the punch to see that I'm not "pro-life' in the manner you are thinking. Don't be ignorant and blanket label people.

Also Refer to my above edited response to you.

 

[permutated]

If 'pro-lifers' stopped the moral grandstanding and admonishment of others, and spent that same energy on improving the lives of the unwanted and alone people who are already around, the world would be a much better place.

Go feed some homeless people.

Most do both, you're too busy being on here complaining about how other people are trying to make the world a better place so that kind of invalidates your opinion.

 

[Speevy]

Spoken like a true male chauvanist.

I don't know of any women who consider abortion as a convenient form of contraception.

I do.

 

[Grug]

I've actually done that and volunteered at a woman's shelter for over a year (which ahd effectively killed my faith in humanity).

I think you are too quick to the punch to see that I'm not "pro-life' in the manner you are thinking. Don't be ignorant and blanket label people.

I wasn't referring to anyone specifically when I made that previous statement. Its not all about you.

 

[Grug]

I do.

They sound like ideal candidates for raising children they don't want, don't you agree?

 

[Grug]

If it were up to me, said irresponsible sluts would have their ovaries permanently removed.

Ladies and gentlemen, social darwinism has reared its head.

Who will sit at the head of the Veritas Court of Eugenic Justice and pontificate on what defines an "irresponsible slut"?

 

[VeritasVierge]

I wasn't referring to anyone specifically when I made that previous statement. Its not all about you.

Well, I hope I've given JD food for thought.

Ladies and gentlemen, social darwinism has reared its head.

Who will sit at the head of the Veritas Court of Eugenic Justice and pontificate on what defines an "irresponsible slut"?

My personal opinion has nothing to do with the fact I'm still pro-abortion so what say you now? Also, I thought this wasn't all about me?

 

[permutated]

Ladies and gentlemen, social darwinism has reared its head.

Who will sit at the head of the Veritas Court of Eugenic Justice and pontificate on what defines an "irresponsible slut"?

I was going to make a joke about your mother being a prime example, but that would be over the line, even in an abortion thread. :lol

No I don't think we should define things like that, there's a right to choose for women who absolutely must go through with it all, but more often then not it leads to depression or suicide, so how is that a fix at all????

 

[Unregistered007]

Abortion is for weak irresponsible idiots who produce bastard after bastard.

Although I support abortion for the women who are raped as its hard enough living with a mark on one's conscious but having a kid around is even harsh.

 

[faceless007]

Because as much as people like to have control over their lives, sometimes the things we do out of haste we end up regretting the most.

Having the shock of pregnancy and the thought of an EXIT door just means more people take the easy way out when they shouldn't have gotten themselves in that situation earlier.

So you think they should be forced to stay pregnant and carry the baby to term, at the cost of irreparable changes made to their body, for no other reason than they need to learn a lesson.

Guess you agree with Obama that babies are a punishment then--except you think that's a good thing. Shocking.

 

[faceless007]

more often then not it leads to depression or suicide, so how is that a fix at all????

Women who have abortions "more often than not" get depression or commit suicide? Cite please. I also don't know why you'd lump the two together like they're similar

 

[Vinzer Deling]

Ladies and gentlemen, social darwinism has reared its head.

Who will sit at the head of the Veritas Court of Eugenic Justice and pontificate on what defines an "irresponsible slut"?

Elected government officials.

 

[Atrus]

In Canada (and I'm sure in Europe) it's a legal issue that's been settled by the supreme court. A fetus by law is neither an individual or a person, and abortion laws violate the constitutions charter for life, liberty and security of person.

 

[chubigans]

Now here's an interesting article: "Can Catholics Back Pro-Choice Obama?"

http://www.newsweek.com/id/163896?GT1=43002

In an election cycle filled with its share of quirks, oddities, and surprises, the emergence of Roman Catholic pro-lifers as leading supporters of Sen. Barack Obama—himself a favorite of the National Reproductive Rights Action League—must rank as one of the strangest of twists and turns. Whatever its effect on the election, this unexpected development may also portend a new hardening of the battle lines within the Catholic Church, no matter who is inaugurated president in January.

 

[ZAK]

Having the shock of pregnancy and the thought of an EXIT door just means more people take the easy way out when they shouldn't have gotten themselves in that situation earlier.

If an exit door exists, then why shouldn't they have gotten themselves into that situation?

Not that there aren't other issues with reckless sex. STD's mostly, and those are their own punishment. But creating artificial burdens makes no sense.

 

[JayDubya]

If an exit door exists, then why shouldn't they have gotten themselves into that situation?

Because the exit door in question is fucking repugnant?

 

[Wilsongt]

I try to stay out of threads like this because I am not an effective arguer. I am of the stance that if you want to have an abortion, go ahead. If you want to keep the baby, go ahead.

If you're a teenage girl and know you cannot handle a baby, put the child up for adoption. Do not take away the child's right to experience life with a family who may take care of it because the girl made a wrong choice and her partner didn't cover his junk properly.

When it comes to the issue of rape and getting pregnant that way... Well... Then it should be at the woman's discretion.

However, there are times where an abortion may be a choice that the mother has to take. If for some reason the fetus is going to harm the mother to the point of possibly killing her, then she should have the right to an abortion. There are ways to detect these complications early.

Maybe I am completely uninformed about the issue, but I think making abortion illegal isn't the best choice.

 

[ZAK]

Because the exit door in question is fucking repugnant?

Only if you think it's murder, in which case you'd think the issue would have a lot less to do with being irresponsible and more to do with killing a person.

Point being, if you think abortion is murder then you don't need another reason to oppose it; and if you don't think it's murder, then you don't have any reason to.

 

[JayDubya]

Not quite. Even were I to take a less hard-nosed stance, I could still argue the "irresponsibility" angle.

 

[permutated]

So you think they should be forced to stay pregnant and carry the baby to term, at the cost of irreparable changes made to their body, for no other reason than they need to learn a lesson.

Guess you agree with Obama that babies are a punishment then--except you think that's a good thing. Shocking.

It's not about learning a lesson persay, and of course there are exceptions to the rule, but if you make your bed you sleep in it.

Period.

To make it sound heartless, you can't go sleeping all over town, carrying a high income job, get yourself knocked up, and expect to just terminate it like a bad cold and move on now can you?

 

[ZAK]

Not quite. Even were I to take a less hard-nosed stance, I could still argue the "irresponsibility" angle.

Okay, then answer my question.

To make it sound heartless, you can't go sleeping all over town, carrying a high income job, get yourself knocked up, and expect to just terminate it like a bad cold and move on now can you?

You too. Why not?

 

[Kipz]

If a first trimester abortion is murder then what about the morning after pill? Also murder? The countless fertilized eggs in fertilization clinics which are destroyed day after day? I just have difficulty seeing a bunch of cells as human is all.

 

[faceless007]

It's not about learning a lesson persay, and of course there are exceptions to the rule, but if you make your bed you sleep in it.

Period.

Not if there's an exit. Which there is.

To make it sound heartless, you can't go sleeping all over town, carrying a high income job, get yourself knocked up, and expect to just terminate it like a bad cold and move on now can you?

Why the hell not? Currently in the U.S., a woman absolutely can do all that (although STDs and sexual stigmas complicate matters). Just saying "You can't" isn't an argument at all.

 

[permutated]

Not if there's an exit. Which there is.


Why the hell not? Currently in the U.S., a woman absolutely can do all that (although STDs and sexual stigmas complicate matters). Just saying "You can't" isn't an argument at all.

Divorce is also an exit, that doesn't mean it should be an option.

Just because we can do things doesn't mean we should do them. It's wrong to kill a child before they have a chance to breathe and experience life.