faceless007
Member
So you also think divorce should be outlawed?
That wouldn't go over well in the Bible belt.
That wouldn't go over well in the Bible belt.
Abortion Debate / Discussion Only In This Thread
- Thread starter JayDubya
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Alright, I am a little late into this thread, but I thought I would share my thoughts on this. I haven't read the entire thread so this may have been stated before, for that I am sorry. This is basically how I see it.
All pregnancies are planned or at the very least a choice to get pregnant.
Before everyone jumps all over me for this let me explain why. There are ~12 different types of birth control available, mostly for women. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there even a birth control pill available for men now? Condoms are 99% effective, and I believe the statistic is close to that for the pill. When both of these methods are used, the chance for conception is so insignificant it is astounding. Mathematically, you would have to have sex thousands, if not millions, of times before you conceived. If you don't want to use birth control, and you have sex. You are choosing to have a baby. Why should you then be able to just say, "Oh well, fuck it, just vacuum it out." You had NUMEROUS opportunities to use the available forms of birth control, or at the very least a condom, but you didn't.
I don't take a staunch pro-life stance, however. I feel like it should be a viable option for cases of rape or incest. Also, if the baby is going to be a significant danger to the mother's life (i.e. attaches to something other than the wall of the uterus.)
All pregnancies are planned or at the very least a choice to get pregnant.
Before everyone jumps all over me for this let me explain why. There are ~12 different types of birth control available, mostly for women. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there even a birth control pill available for men now? Condoms are 99% effective, and I believe the statistic is close to that for the pill. When both of these methods are used, the chance for conception is so insignificant it is astounding. Mathematically, you would have to have sex thousands, if not millions, of times before you conceived. If you don't want to use birth control, and you have sex. You are choosing to have a baby. Why should you then be able to just say, "Oh well, fuck it, just vacuum it out." You had NUMEROUS opportunities to use the available forms of birth control, or at the very least a condom, but you didn't.
I don't take a staunch pro-life stance, however. I feel like it should be a viable option for cases of rape or incest. Also, if the baby is going to be a significant danger to the mother's life (i.e. attaches to something other than the wall of the uterus.)
tekumseh
a mass of phermones, hormones and adrenaline just waiting to explode
Jay Dub
If the life of your wife were in jeopardy, how would you proceed? I have much more to add/interject going forward, but, as you are a parent, I'd be interested in your response to this question first and forgive me if I've missed your having already responded...
If the life of your wife were in jeopardy, how would you proceed? I have much more to add/interject going forward, but, as you are a parent, I'd be interested in your response to this question first and forgive me if I've missed your having already responded...
Oh look at that, you're not trying to argue based solely based on responsibility. Well, thanks for the honesty.permutated said:
JD, you're up. By the way, let's be clear here. Exactly what assumptions are you operating under, what is your argument, and what conclusion are you ultimately reaching?
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Or just being stupid or forgetful. Or, an abortion is you changing your mind. The horror.daw840 said:
Why should you not be able to? Apparently you have one more opportunity.
daw840 said:
So if two high school kids who haven't been sexually active (hence not having pills/condoms) have sex one night at a party, prom, date, etc.... they should be stuck with a kid and ruin the rest of both their lives and any potential they had to become great people beneficial to our society?
speculawyer
Member
Well it should. Because divorce isn't looked at too kindly in the Bible.faceless007 said:
But whatever . . . . people just pick & choose what they want to believe.
How else do you think that our Patriarchical society seems to have made the two biggest religious issues be homosexuality and abortion . . . two things that heterosexual man pretty much can't violate.
Bebpo said:
With all the sex education going on in today's society there is no reason that you would not know to at least use a condom.
One in a million shot, we can't make something legal just because of a one in a million shot. Everyone knows that sex can lead to pregnancy, that's a risk you take when you have sex. For instance, people get in accidents and die while driving. It doesn't happen very often, but should we make driving illegal? People need to take some responsibility for their actions.
daw840 said:
Of course they'll know. But the fact is when they are in someone's bed and start making out it's kind of too late to run out and buy a condom. I don't know anyone male or female who just kept condoms lying around during high school. Especially since 99% of HS kids are living with their parents at home.
speculawyer
Member
Think about this though . . . if we assume all of that is true then intelligent people are not going to have accidental births and we are going to be forcing the the people so incompetent that they couldn't use any of those birth control methods properly to have kids.daw840 said:
It would be reverse eugenics. That is a pretty scary prospect for mankind.
In fact it is probably affecting heavily today since the fertility rates of most industrialized western nations is pretty low. But the fertility rates in third world nations is pretty high.
fistfulofmetal
Banned
daw840 said:
We are humans. Humans are fallible. Two high school teens fucking after a party generally aren't thinking with a clear mind. Shit happens, mistakes are made.
I don't understand why abortion can't be one of the final outs in your mind
fistfulofmetal said:
Mistakes are definitely made and you should have to deal with the consequences. Everything is a risk/reward in life. Like my previous analogy of driving. If you decide to cross a highway and pull out in front of someone and get in an accident, there is no magical "out." You have to deal with these consequences, whether that is your car is totaled, your are severely injured, or whatever. This even works if your not at fault for the accident. You decided to drive, there are inherent risks in driving, you accepted those risks as soon as you got behind the wheel. The same thing goes for sex. There is an inherent risk that you will get pregnant, if you take the proper precautions against this risk there is an overwhelming chance that it will not happen. Most things in life are not 99%, sex is.
faceless007
Member
Not if the "abstinence-only" proponents get their way. Funny how the overlap between them and anti-abortion folks is so big.daw840 said:
In a free society, you don't need a reason to make something legal, you need a reason to make it illegal. Everything is legal until it's not.
fistfulofmetal
Banned
daw840 said:
You realize that there is a baby at the end of this equation, right? A baby that has to be raised and nurtured by the parents? The parents that don't want it in the first place?
Using a child as punishment is kind of cold, if you ask me.
faceless007 said:
I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT believe in abstinence only teaching. That is just retarded.
faceless007 said:
Right, but I believe that a fetus is a life. Therefore, in general, terminating a life is illegal, except in extenuating circumstances such as self defense. The mother would be acting in self defense if the baby was going to kill her by being born.
permutated
Banned
ZAK said:
Are you stupid or just lazy? Read the posts, it's obvious what I'm getting at.
daw840 said:
Depends on if you feel a 3 week old fetus has more weight than the drama and problems that a pregnancy will cause for a high school girl.
But really it shouldn't be any of us who make that judgment. It should be solely for the girl in question to decide since she'll have to live with her decision either way.
Simply because other forms of birth-control exist, doesn't mean that another form of birth-control, abortion, shouldn't exist as well. You have to prove two things:
1) Abortion is wrong (prove that a fetus is a person and entitled to rights)
2) Allowing abortions is a greater evil than prosecuting women for having abortions.
1) Abortion is wrong (prove that a fetus is a person and entitled to rights)
2) Allowing abortions is a greater evil than prosecuting women for having abortions.
fistfulofmetal
Banned
daw840 said:
And now we've reached the part of the arguement that I like to call "The Stone Wall"
We've gotten through all the useless points and counter-points and are now discussing what truly drives our opinions.
To me (and I've stated this already) abortion before the point where brain activity reaches the "sentient" (what that means is also up for debate) stage is not killing a child.
You obviously disagree.
faceless007
Member
daw840 said:
And force the mother, who could be in her pre-teens, to endure nine months of extreme physical hardship, irreparable changes made to her body affecting any future possibility of childbirth, potentially life-threatening complications with a parasitic creature leeching resources from her body, and the social stigma of being pregnant at a young age? Only a guy would think that being pregnant is such a trivial and painless process.
permutated
Banned
daw840 said:
Pro choicers would rather not waste their vacation time having a child that they're responsible for.
fistfulofmetal
Banned
daw840 said:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Unless you forgot to switch accounts, you're not JayDubya. I'm done talking to you unless you have something interesting to say.permutated said:
I'm not sure what you're talking about but I'm pretty sure I don't care. If you're going to say that abortion is murder then save us all some time and just follow it up with "murder is bad." That would be sufficient. "Take responsibility for your actions" is just a red herring.daw840 said:
zoku88 said:
Well, if your premise is that babies in the womb are "non-sentient" then what changes in the minutes after it comes out of the womb? The umbilical cord is cut. That's it. It is still entirely dependent on the mother or some human. It will not live without help from someone else.
permutated
Banned
ZAK said:
Ok, well, here are my points.
-I'm pro life.
-Abortion is sick and relatively selfish.
-If you don't want to waste your time having a child you shouldn't spend so much time or effort trying to get laid.
-If you don't want the child, put it up for adoption, don't kill it before it gets a chance to experience life.
Bebpo said:
I was partially being sarcastic man. Of course it causes problems within their lives, but if they're not ready for the responsibility of having a child they shouldn't have sex. Period.
permutated
Banned
Bebpo said:
No, but you wouldn't buy a car if you weren't ready to drive now would you?
I didn't mean that everyone who gets pregnant is easy, that's a stupid generalization, but if you're having sex USUALLY (or a larger percentage of the time) you're actively seeking a sexual relationship. That puts you at risk, that puts you at fault.
permutated
Banned
zoku88 said:
I'm pretty sure you missed my point. :lol
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