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Affirmative action ban heads for ballot in 5 states

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Saw this earlier today.

(CNN) -- Come election time in November, voters in five states might have a decision to make as big as whom to elect president.

Ballot initiatives have been proposed in Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Oklahoma that would give voters the chance to decide whether they want to do away with affirmative action in government-funded projects and public schools.

Ward Connerly, who heads the American Civil Rights Coalition -- a nonprofit organization working to end racial and gender preferences -- and the main backer of the ballot initiatives, says the 37 word initiative would read: "The state shall not discriminate against or grant preferential treatment to any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education or public contracting."

"It would forbid any state or local agency or special district from engaging in preferential treatment,"
Connerly said.

Connerly, who is of African-American and American Indian descent, said affirmative action causes resentment. He criticized cases in which a Caucasian student might be denied a college slot in favor of a black student with a lower grade-point average.

"It's foolish not to think that the kid who is turned away is not going to ... resent that," Connerly said.

Connerly, who grew up in Leesville, Louisiana, said he experienced oppression because of his skin color during his youth.

"If it was wrong when I was born in '39 ... it's wrong now," he said. "If it was wrong to do it against a brown-skinned man, it's wrong to do it against a white man."

Shanta Driver, National Director of United for Equality and Affirmative Action Legal Defense Fund -- an organization dedicated to integrating minority students in educational institutions -- said the ballot initiative is a mistake.

"It places us in the position of denying ... equal opportunity to blacks and Latinos," she said.

Driver and other affirmative action supporters believe this movement would erase the progress made since the Civil Rights Act of 1964.


"It's obviously a huge step backwards," she said.

The ballot initiative, dubbed the Civil Rights Initiative, has already passed in California, Michigan and Washington.


Some 140,000 signed petitions have been submitted in Oklahoma. Backers in the remaining four states have until late March to early July to collect enough signatures for the initiative to be on the November ballot.

If successful, the ballot measures would cut off tax dollars for programs offering preferential treatment based on gender or race.t

The issue may have some support in the Supreme Court.

In June, justices threw out public school choice plans that relied on race. That leaves many states uncertain about whether their affirmative action policies will stand up in court and against political scrutiny in this election year.

Counter:
OMAHA, Neb. (AP) - Anti-racism activist Tim Wise says white men would benefit from a ban on affirmative action.

A petition drive is under way in Nebraska to get a proposed constitutional amendment banning affirmative action on the November ballot.

Wise says that if the measure were to pass, more white men would be hired over qualified minorities, including women. He says that's because those in positions of power in Nebraska are mostly white men, and they - like all people - seek out their own kind, giving little thought to minority applicants.

But Ward Connerly has said the U.S. has lost jobs in the name of diversity and that the end of affirmative action is vital to the nation as it competes in the global marketplace.

His group, Super Tuesday for Equal Rights, is pushing a ban in Nebraska and four other states.

Hmm, I'm not sure whether this is a good idea or not. I see where the guy is coming from with the resentment argument, but the law and others like it exist because there IS racism. What do you guys as Americans think?
 
Instituting a system of guaranteed racism to combat the possibility of racism is a bad idea and should have never been made a policy. Affirmative Action is wrong.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
ronito said:
well as long as things are easier for the white men.

seriously. Things have been so hard as a white man recently. I mean, we pay more in taxes than those lucky ducky poor minorities and women. I think it's time to take back our mandate.
 
WickedAngel said:
Instituting a system of guaranteed racism to combat the possibility of racism is a bad idea and should have never been made a policy. Affirmative Action is wrong.
AA isn't meant to combat racism necessarily. A lot of minority kids are inherently disadvantaged through their youth, suggesting that their lower test scores were a result of racial forces.

I disagree with AA, but it's a complicated issue and isn't nearly as simple as "lol reverse racism."
 

Tideas

Banned
asians have the most to benefit from the lack of AA, not white man.

And why does the guy for anti-racism have to do with AA?

In and of itself, AA is racist
 

Baker

Banned
I was just thinking about this today. It's a touchy subject, and obviously a fine line.

We had a university faculty meeting this morning, and had to watch a 120+ page Keynote presentation. One of the slides was bragging that we hired 6 African Americans, 10 Asians, and 12 "Others" in the last fiscal year.

I found the whole concept pretty strange. We're all people, so it almost seems racist to me when your defining characteristic on paper is what your ancestry happens to be.
 
Nerevar said:
seriously. Things have been so hard as a white man recently. I mean, we pay more in taxes than those lucky ducky poor minorities and women. I think it's time to take back our mandate.

Yes, yes, your sarcasm completely discredits the fact that the very basis of AA is a discriminatory system that limits people based on their skin color.

RiskyChris said:
AA isn't meant to combat racism necessarily. A lot of minority kids are inherently disadvantaged through their youth, suggesting that their lower test scores were a result of racial forces.

I disagree with AA, but it's a complicated issue and isn't nearly as simple as "lol reverse racism."

That's not really my problem and it shouldn't be something that our country models hiring policies around. The best person for the job should get the job; there isn't anything else that should matter in the job market.
 
Baker said:
I was just thinking about this today. It's a touchy subject, and obviously a fine line.

We had a university faculty meeting this morning, and had to watch a 120+ page Keynote presentation. One of the slides was bragging that we hired 6 African Americans, 10 Asians, and 12 "Others" in the last fiscal year.

I found the whole concept pretty strange. We're all people, so it almost seems racist to me when your defining characteristic on paper is what your ancestry happens to be.

"Some of my best friends are black!"
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
WickedAngel said:
Yes, yes, your sarcasm completely discredits the fact that the very basis of AA is a discriminatory system that limits people based on their skin color.

I agree! We should institute a system that discriminates based on socioeconomic status, reinforced by decades of overt racism that inherently has disadvantaged these people! I mean, why should my children be forced to attend school and work alongside that riff-raff?
 
Nerevar said:
I agree! We should institute a system that discriminates based on socioeconomic status, reinforced by decades of overt racism that inherently has disadvantaged these people! I mean, why should my children be forced to attend school and work alongside that riff-raff?

We already have a system that discriminates based on socioeconomic status.

Oh wait.
 
Institute socio-economic affirmative action. It will inherently benefit minorities while not playing the race card.

Oh, and even though I'm against affirmative action based on race, like some white dude is going to apply for a college, not get in, and somehow know that a minority with a lower GPA got in and somehow resent it. That's fucking ridiculous. That's what we call not taking responsibility. That argument has no weight because not only is it somewhat ludicrous to believe and it's not like race is the only factor that plays into being accepted into college, but it just shows a lack of maturity on the part of the "victim".
 
Cooter said:
But when then?
When racism ends? Really, come on. The fact that minorities WILL get cheated out of jobs/schools is the problem. How can anyone guarantee that such a thing won't happen? I don't think it's fair to whites because they are in essence getting cheated as well. Bu the history behind the law makes it o so touchy.
 
Nerevar said:
I agree! We should institute a system that discriminates based on socioeconomic status, reinforced by decades of overt racism that inherently has disadvantaged these people! I mean, why should my children be forced to attend school and work alongside that riff-raff?

1. Chip on shoulder? Check.
2. Misplaced blame? Check.
3. Generalizations implying that the intended target of the comment is a racist? Check.

This isn't about socioeconomic status; it's about a system that only takes your skin color into account. You would have a point if AA was designed to serve the poor instead of a particular race but it doesn't.
 

Tideas

Banned
Besides, AA is like, blaming the kids for his grandparents decision, something he can't control (something like race...oh. snap)

basically, 18 year old blacks, mexicans, whites, and asians these days had nothing to do, or even really benefit from the racisms that occurred 3 generations ago.

And if you say the white ppl do, then you haven't looked into how many white Americans are living in poverty
 

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement
CrushDance said:
When racism ends? Really, come on. The fact that minorities WILL get cheated out of jobs/schools is the problem. How can anyone guarantee that such a thing won't happen? I don't think it's fair to whites because they are in essence getting cheated as well. Bu the history behind the law makes it o so touchy.

So forever. I have no doubt that America will continue to mature and become less and less racist over the coming generations but for it to end? How do you even prove something like that?
 

Tideas

Banned
Cooter said:
So forever. I have no doubt that America will continue to mature and become less and less racist over the coming generations but for it to end? How do you even prove something like that?

actually, something like AA will tend to make ppl bittered, because the white person that didnt get into school because of AA will tend to be bittered toward minorities, and such, the cycle continues.

Anyway, I'm against AA. All it does is hold asian americans back, har har
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
WickedAngel said:
1. Chip on shoulder? Check.
2. Misplaced blame? Check.
3. Generalizations implying that the intended target of the comment is a racist? Check.

:lol

wow, someone's sensitive. The overtly sarcastic comment was merely a statement of what will happen when AA goes away. We have a stratified system of access to opportunity in this country, and AA is at least an attempt to redress past wrongs. I'm not naive enough to think everyone has the same opportunity in the US.

This isn't about socioeconomic status; it's about a system that only takes your skin color into account. You would have a point if AA was designed to serve the poor instead of a particular race but it doesn't.

Responding to your edit - you'd have a point if everyone started off at an equal footing. But the point of AA is that these minorities are poor because of their race, thus we need something to balance out centuries of discrimination that put them in that place. You would do well to grasp this basic point.
 

cacti

Member
CrushDance said:
When racism ends? Really, come on. The fact that minorities WILL get cheated out of jobs/schools is the problem. How can anyone guarantee that such a thing won't happen? I don't think it's fair to whites because they are in essence getting cheated as well. Bu the history behind the law makes it o so touchy.

It will never totally end that's like saying murder will never happen again and no one or government can guarantee it won't happen.
 

SRG01

Member
I'm not sure how I feel about this issue, being a minority and all.

In some ways, affirmative action does perpetuate a subtle form of racism. On the other hand, you'd have to be pretty blind to not notice that minorities of any color -- not just African American -- are significantly lower than caucasians on the socioeconomic ladder in the US.

For myself, the solution seems to be this: give affirmative action to people of lower economic status instead of restricting it by race. If AA is to help the less opportune people, then why keep it to one group?
 
cacti said:
It will never totally end that's like saying murder will never happen again and no one or government can guarantee it won't happen.
So then what should happen? People say AA has to go but don't give any sort of security to minorities.
 

way more

Member
If better qualified white people really were being passed over for jobs than I can see how this would be a bad thing. But isn't what we see that it's mostly average applicants and legacies hirings/acceptance that AA combats? We're talking about having less GWB Jr's and more Colin Powells.
 
CrushDance said:
So then what should happen? People say AA has to go but don't give any sort of security to minorities.

See above. Socio-economic based AA. Why should being a minority be a big deal if your family is filthy fucking rich? You're going to be well off if you're already well off. It's the poor people that need the added opportunity, regardless of race.

Again, I will say that AA is one tiny part of the admissions process, but it could be handled so much better.
 

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement
CrushDance said:
So then what should happen? People say AA has to go but don't give any sort of security to minorities.

I guess in 50 years when white people are the minority they will be able to take advantage of it. I agree with what many others have said, it should be based off economic status.
 

harSon

Banned
Tideas said:
Besides, AA is like, blaming the kids for his grandparents decision, something he can't control (something like race...oh. snap)

basically, 18 year old blacks, mexicans, whites, and asians these days had nothing to do, or even really benefit from the racisms that occurred 3 generations ago.

And if you say the white ppl do, then you haven't looked into how many white Americans are living in poverty

Extreme prejudice was only 50 or so years back, profound oppression of economic growth for African American had a large impact on the position in the US today. Only 56% of African Americans graduate from high school compared to 76% of Whites.

"Today, more African-American men are in jail than in college. In 2000 there were 791,600 black men in prison and 603,032 enrolled in college. In 1980, there were 143,000 black men in prison and 463,700 enrolled in college."

I'm sure this has absolutely nothing to do with hundreds of years of Slavery and Jim Crow though.
 

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement
harSon said:
Extreme prejudice was only 50 or so years back, profound oppression of economic growth for African American had a large impact on the position in the US today. Only 56% of African Americans graduate from high school compared to 76% of Whites.

"Today, more African-American men are in jail than in college. In 2000 there were 791,600 black men in prison and 603,032 enrolled in college. In 1980, there were 143,000 black men in prison and 463,700 enrolled in college."

I'm sure this has absolutely nothing to do with hundreds of years of Slavery and Jim Crow though.

I think the question that needs to be asked is why has the prison to college ratio jumped so high over the past 20 years. IMO it has a lot to do with one parent households.
 

Tideas

Banned
SRG01 said:
In some ways, affirmative action does perpetuate a subtle form of racism. On the other hand, you'd have to be pretty blind to not notice that minorities of any color -- not just African American -- are significantly lower than caucasians on the socioeconomic ladder in the US.

You haven't been to the OC or Irvine then I presume?

harSon said:
Extreme prejudice was only 50 or so years back, profound oppression of economic growth for African American had a large impact on the position in the US today. Only 56% of African Americans graduate from high school compared to 76% of Whites.

"Today, more African-American men are in jail than in college. In 2000 there were 791,600 black men in prison and 603,032 enrolled in college. In 1980, there were 143,000 black men in prison and 463,700 enrolled in college."

I'm sure this has absolutely nothing to do with hundreds of years of Slavery and Jim Crow though.

I agree, that there are certain parts of America that's still racist, but those element will die out over time.

As far the African American men statistics, whose fault is that? Sure, some of those men are in there because they are all innocent, but can you look me in the eyes and tell me ALL if not 50% of those men did not commit the crime?

This all go back to parentings. Do black parents try to get their kids to stay in school? Do they teach them the values of an education? or do they say, "hey, if you're not good at basketball or football, you're gonna be a bum for the rest of your life."

you can only go so much to blame someone else for your problems, than to blame yourself.

I was raised in the ghetto of SD, went to college, and am now an engineer. Thanks to the part that there is NO AA in california.

If I can do that, then I don't see how no one else can. Stop blaming, and start trying, is my message to everbody (minority and majority)
 

cacti

Member
CrushDance said:
So then what should happen? People say AA has to go but don't give any sort of security to minorities.

Again we need to recognize each other as Americans in all aspects of life and people who are truly interested in improving race relations would teach their children this. AA will not do that and neither will the government. Only we as people can do that. We have to pass better morals to the next generation if we hope for it to better than ours and better than the one before ours. AA is security? If anything I would say it holds people back by not motivating them to improve their lives.
 

harSon

Banned
Cooter said:
I think the question that needs to be asked is why has the prison to college ratio jumped so high over the past 20 years. IMO it has a lot to do with one parent households.

A mix of a ridiculous amount of prisons being built and wanting those prisons to be filled for money flow and labor, lopsided prison sentences (Difference in sentencing between Cocaine and Crack Cocaine), racial unfairness, and destruction of the black household.
 

way more

Member
Cooter said:
I guess in 50 years when white people are the minority they will be able to take advantage of it. I agree with what many others have said, it should be based off economic status.

Minority doesn't mean less populous, it means less powerful. As long as the people with money are white and every senator is a white male then white will be the majority in America.

If anything I would say it holds people back by not motivating them to improve their lives.

This argument is the bottom of the barrel in rhetoric.
 

Tideas

Banned
harSon said:
A mix of a ridiculous amount of prisons being built and wanting those prisons to be filled for money flow and labor, lopsided prison sentences (Difference in sentencing between Cocaine and Crack Cocaine), racial unfairness, and destruction of the black household.

eh? Prisons are a cost to taxpayers. Not a profit-income. We don't want ppl to go to prison.

Prisons are built to increasing inmates, not immates are increasing to fill prisons.

It all goes back to: Don't do the crime if u cant do the time
 

ronito

Member
Tideas said:
eh? Prisons are a cost to taxpayers. Not a profit-income. We don't want ppl to go to prison.

Prisons are built to increasing inmates, not immates are increasing to fill prisons.

It all goes back to: Don't do the crime if u cant do the time
oh dear how to put this.

Private corporations are making a killing in the prison system and they give plenty of money to the GOP. For-profit incarceration is a booming business.
 

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
Well if there was any doubt of historically high African American voter turnout, those fears should be quelled in Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Oklahoma at least
 

Tideas

Banned
ronito said:
oh dear how to put this.

Private corporations are making a killing in the prison system and they give plenty of money to the GOP. For-profit incarceration is a booming business.

I'm willing to be educated. Link me
 

way more

Member
Tideas said:
eh? Prisons are a cost to taxpayers. Not a profit-income. We don't want ppl to go to prison.

Prisons are built to increasing inmates, not immates are increasing to fill prisons.

It all goes back to: Don't do the crime if u cant do the time

You haven't heard about privatizing prisons? It's been the trend since the past 20 years.


That little maxim works only if people are charged equally for equal crimes. But every five years we have a new case before the Supreme Court in which it's proven black people are incarcerated at much higher rates as to cause the Court to overturn thousands of convictions.
 
This has little to do with affirmative action . . . it is just a red meat issue throw out make sure conservatives go to the polls. It is like the gay marriage bans in past years.

The Supreme Court has already made most racial based systems illegal.
 

harSon

Banned
Tideas said:
You haven't been to the OC or Irvine then I presume?



I agree, that there are certain parts of America that's still racist, but those element will die out over time.

As far the African American men statistics, whose fault is that? Sure, some of those men are in there because they are all innocent, but can you look me in the eyes and tell me ALL if not 50% of those men did not commit the crime?

This all go back to parentings. Do black parents try to get their kids to stay in school? Do they teach them the values of an education? or do they say, "hey, if you're not good at basketball or football, you're gonna be a bum for the rest of your life."

you can only go so much to blame someone else for your problems, than to blame yourself.

I was raised in the ghetto of SD, went to college, and am now an engineer. Thanks to the part that there is NO AA in california.

If I can do that, then I don't see how no one else can. Stop blaming, and start trying, is my message to everbody (minority and majority)

I'm the product of a rape and was raised by a single mother for the majority of my life, I lived in a ghetto shithole (Homewood, Pittsburgh) for three-fourths of my life, I've lost an older and younger brother to gang violence and a sister to a drunk driver. I currently live in San Jose, CA and am currently attending UC Berkely. I'm well aware of the destruction of the Black home, I lived through it for much of my life. It still doesn't change the fact that Prisons unfairly target minorities (specifically African Americans).
 

Tideas

Banned
harSon said:
I'm the product of a rape and was raised by a single mother for the majority of my life, I lived in a ghetto shithole (Homewood, Pittsburgh) for three-fourths of my life, I've lost an older and younger brother to gang violence and a sister to a drunk driver. I currently live in San Jose, CA and am currently attending UC Berkely. I'm well aware of the destruction of the Black home, I lived through it for much of my life. It still doesn't change the fact that Prisons unfairly target minorities (specifically African Americans).

This has nothing to do with prisons, but with AA, which gives a quota for minority in government sponsor work and education.

Basically, how would you feel if Cali had AA, and someone told you the only reason you got into Berkeley was to fill a quota, and not for your hardwork.

Kinda trivialize your hardwork doesntt it?
 
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