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[harSon]

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, yeah.

Your explanation for why Affirmative Action is dumb was fairly similar to your opinion on guns. The answer to gun violence is more guns!

And that fear is constantly re-enforced by democrats and their own black party leaders. It certainly has been an effective means to control the black vote though.

Democrats don't need anything to control the Black vote. The alternative to Democrats being Republican is reason enough.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

White Flight from cities reducing the tax base that cities can use for schools and municipal upkeep.

Guilty as charged. :\

I would love to stay in the neighborhood I was born and raised in, home costs are low, rent is cheap, and the homes also have a decent amount of land - but it's turn into a ghetto via government subsidy and in came the crime, apathy, and general lack of regard for human life.

It hurts to see things go to shit, but I only got so many years to live; and my lifespan is drastically reduced staying here.

Although I'd love to see the government just authorize private military contractors to police these fucking wretched American shitholes.

 

[bob_arctor]

Democrats don't need anything to control the Black vote. The alternative to Democrats being Republican is reason enough.

Let's repeat this so we can all let it sink in.

 

[WickedAngel]

Your explanation for why Affirmative Action is dumb was fairly similar to your opinion on guns. The answer to gun violence is more guns!

It doesn't do a lot for your credibility when you accuse someone of oversimplifying one argument and then proceed to do the very same thing in the next sentence.

 

[dabig2]

I'm surprised this is such a big deal. Black people want it around because they have this fear that without it none of them will ever get hired again, and white people want it gone because they have this idea that AA is what is keeping them unemployed. Not their lack of skills or the poor economy.

What is the ratio of people on GAF who know for a fact that they lost a job because of AA. I really want to know

This is actually a good question. We know AA is in the works in a lot of areas. But really how bad is it? How many "more qualified" white people are getting their jobs or spots in the classroom taken by far "less qualified" minorities? And the most important question is to what degree? I would hope studies on this are prevalent. All I see is the other side.

If 2 people are very similar in regards to qualifications, then I have no problem with AA bumping up the black guy. If the gap between qualifications is huge however, then that's where AA begins the reverse racism. And I never pay attention to the college application thing. The application process for colleges abroad is so varied and so non-exact that you're far more statistically likely to find a less-qualified white person get in over the more qualified white person.

 

[WickedAngel]

If 2 people are very similar in regards to qualifications, then I have no problem with AA bumping up the black guy. If the gap between qualifications is huge however, then that's where AA begins the reverse racism. And I never pay attention to the college application thing. The application process for colleges abroad is so varied and so non-exact that you're far more statistically likely to find a less-qualified white person get in over the more qualified white person.

You should have a problem with this; everyone should. Getting an advantage based on your color is exactly the kind of practice that the civil rights movement was intended to squash. The only difference is that the tables have turned.

 

[The Grand Lucifarius]

When you shit up your neighborhood with murder, shootings, gang violence and rampant teen pregnancy you do no deserve the same treatment as a society that has it's shit together. Period.

It's about earning you place in this over populated world. If you're a black person who wants a better shot at life and happens to be living in a shitty ghetto get the hell out. It goes without saying. Intelligent black people already know this without my dumbass saying it. Why WOULD anyone want to sponsor or give funding to such a counter productive society? Why would business want to be there? Why would people want to move there? When there is no money flow and you have low expectations of yourself, you have them for your kids. Why would the schools churn out educated kids? Why would those kids grow up to be educated adults? Where does the wheel stop turning? Where's the motivation to end this shit? It starts at a community level. At a family level. Using those fools as an example of what NOT be to yourself and children. You don't level the playing field so those fools are subject to the same chances and consideration that those who know better have. That is madness!

Ignorant ass people ruin their homes and shit where they eat. Let them wallow in it. The struggles that enterprising black people have through an increased amount of hardships are not of the monolithic white corporate doing. It's the fucks that squander their chances and then tear the map and shoot the sign. He has his own kin to thank for that quagmire. The individuals who are wise enough to forsake that repugnant culture does have a rough road ahead.

The distinction between an nigger and black man is one that needs to be made. Or whatever more PC terms you want to use. Regardless there is a clear separation between those willing to carve out and push ahead for a better way of life and those abstain responsibility for their own short comings at every level. Every.single.level.

On one hand you have some blacks who will say they deserves credit for being black and on the other side you have some whites who say he should be denied credit for being black. But he knows better. A man knows he deserves credit for being a fucking man and a man makes himself. There are countless opportunities out there and not a single legitimate excuse for failure.

Discrimination isn't the devil here. Knowing that some people are desirable and that some people aren't is absolutely important to a safe and productive life. Everyone knows this, everyone practices it and without it, it would be impossible to get out of continually self destructive society. The blame's gotta be put on someone and its not the whites or blacks, its the trash and the niggers. There is absolutely a distinction between them and recognizing that is the first step to progress. AA based on race only adds to the problem. Not all black people are the same. Some are more deserving than others. When you enrich and galvanize the weak and ineffective you're not only disrespecting those who are worthy, you're also blurring the line between them. Creating even more hardships that the worthy has to overcome.

An honest society filled with honest men will work it's self out. It's a slow process compared to our individual sense of time. More and more minorities are realizing that race means only as much as you let it and every generation people get more and more enlightened. Eventually the fools and undesirables that ruin it for the rest of us will be bred out and forgotten. A Utopian society has only one universal and acclaimed constant: causality. Not one race, not one culture, not one morality, that shits for the birds. Harmony will come through social honesty.

(Should go without saying but man can easily be replaced woman. Just easier to type man than men and women)

 

[Particle Physicist]

When you shit up your neighborhood with murder, shootings, gang violence and rampant teen pregnancy you do no deserve the same treatment as a society that has it's shit together. Period.

holy fuck. way to lump in all black people into those categories.

 

[ghstwrld]

Aren't white women the primary beneficiaries of AA?

 

[boo7z]

Aren't white women the primary beneficiaries of AA?

For entry and middle management yes. But their is still a glass ceiling going against women / minorities in place for upper management.

Even if the states vote down AA it won't change much. Major corporations will still have programs in place to give "equal" opportunity to minorities (which includes all women).

It may have an impact on small business but in the big picture it won't be much.

 

[FoneBone]

racist fucking bullshit

What. The. Fuck.

edit: Also, go jack off to Atlus Shrugged some more

 

[LuCkymoON]

When you shit up your neighborhood with murder, shootings, gang violence and rampant teen pregnancy you do no deserve the same treatment as a society that has it's shit together. Period.

It's about earning you place in this over populated world. If you're a black person who wants a better shot at life and happens to be living in a shitty ghetto get the hell out. It goes without saying. Intelligent black people already know this without my dumbass saying it. Why WOULD anyone want to sponsor or give funding to such a counter productive society? Why would business want to be there? Why would people want to move there? When there is no money flow and you have low expectations of yourself, you have them for your kids. Why would the schools churn out educated kids? Why would those kids grow up to be educated adults? Where does the wheel stop turning? Where's the motivation to end this shit? It starts at a community level. At a family level. Using those fools as an example of what NOT be to yourself and children. You don't level the playing field so those fools are subject to the same chances and consideration that those who know better have. That is madness!

Ignorant ass people ruin their homes and shit where they eat. Let them wallow in it. The struggles that enterprising black people have through an increased amount of hardships are not of the monolithic white corporate doing. It's the fucks that squander their chances and then tear the map and shoot the sign. He has his own kin to thank for that quagmire. The individuals who are wise enough to forsake that repugnant culture does have a rough road ahead.

The distinction between an nigger and black man is one that needs to be made. Or whatever more PC terms you want to use. Regardless there is a clear separation between those willing to carve out and push ahead for a better way of life and those abstain responsibility for their own short comings at every level. Every.single.level.

On one hand you have some blacks who will say they deserves credit for being black and on the other side you have some whites who say he should be denied credit for being black. But he knows better. A man knows he deserves credit for being a fucking man and a man makes himself. There are countless opportunities out there and not a single legitimate excuse for failure.

Discrimination isn't the devil here. Knowing that some people are desirable and that some people aren't is absolutely important to a safe and productive life. Everyone knows this, everyone practices it and without it, it would be impossible to get out of continually self destructive society. The blame's gotta be put on someone and its not the whites or blacks, its the trash and the niggers. There is absolutely a distinction between them and recognizing that is the first step to progress. AA based on race only adds to the problem. Not all black people are the same. Some are more deserving than others. When you enrich and galvanize the weak and ineffective you're not only disrespecting those who are worthy, you're also blurring the line between them. Creating even more hardships that the worthy has to overcome.

An honest society filled with honest men will work it's self out. It's a slow process compared to our individual sense of time. More and more minorities are realizing that race means only as much as you let it and every generation people get more and more enlightened. Eventually the fools and undesirables that ruin it for the rest of us will be bred out and forgotten. A Utopian society has only one universal and acclaimed constant: causality. Not one race, not one culture, not one morality, that shits for the birds. Harmony will come through social honesty.

(Should go without saying but man can easily be replaced woman. Just easier to type man than men and women)

plz tell us how you really feel =0

 

[Dark Octave]

You should have a problem with this; everyone should. Getting an advantage based on your color is exactly the kind of practice that the civil rights movement was intended to squash. The only difference is that the tables have turned.

AA was created because at one point someone favored one race over the other. AA ensures that there will be diversity in a company. Two people of equal skill level applying for the same job ultimately comes down to who the employer can relate to and would feel more comfortable working around, and if the employer happens to be white and has limited experience with black people, we can all guess what race the newest employee of the company is going to be. Favoritism, racism, call it what you want, it still happens.

quote "Dan Immergluck writes that in 2002 small businesses in black neighborhoods still received fewer loans, even after accounting for businesses density, businesses size, industrial mix, neighborhood income, and the credit quality of local businesses.[69] Gregory D. Squires wrote in 2003 that it is clear that race has long affected and continues to affect the policies and practices of the insurance industry.[70] Workers living in American inner-cities have a harder time finding jobs than suburban workers." /quote

She wasn't famous for nothing, and he wasn't talking just to hear his own voice.

None of this happened that long ago in America's short history. Affirmative Action was needed back then, and Affirmative Action is still needed today.

 

[avatar299]

None of this happened that long ago in America's short history. Affirmative Action was needed back then, and Affirmative Action is still needed today.

Because no progress has been made at all, and no progress will ever be made.

Welcome to America, where you are a fucking racist until proven innocent.

 

[FoneBone]

Because no progress has been made at all, and no progress will ever be made.

Yes, that's exactly what he said.

 

[harSon]

It's good to see how some people really feel about things.

 

[WickedAngel]

AA was created because at one point someone favored one race over the other. AA ensures that there will be diversity in a company. Two people of equal skill level applying for the same job ultimately comes down to who the employer can relate to and would feel more comfortable working around, and if the employer happens to be white and has limited experience with black people, we can all guess what race the newest employee of the company is going to be. Favoritism, racism, call it what you want, it still happens.

How many times is it going to have to be said that socioeconimic Affirmative Action will accomplish the exact same goals WITHOUT discriminating based on skin color? You obviously don't want equality for everyone.

She wasn't famous for nothing, and he wasn't talking just to hear his own voice.

None of this happened that long ago in America's short history. Affirmative Action was needed back then, and Affirmative Action is still needed today.

Nobody is arguing that racism doesn't exist. We're arguing about whether or not implementing another half-assed form of racism is the solution.

 

[harSon]

How many times is it going to have to be said that socioeconimic Affirmative Action will accomplish the exact same goals WITHOUT discriminating based on skin color? You obviously don't want equality for everyone.



Nobody is arguing that racism doesn't exist. We're arguing about whether or not implementing another half-assed form of racism is the solution.

While a socio-economic revision would definitely be better it would still leave the possibility of discrimination based on race.

 

[WickedAngel]

While a socio-economic revision would definitely be better it would still leave the possibility of discrimination based on race.

Discrimination based on race is possible with any system that doesn't involve strict quotas (which are wrong for the same reason as the current implementation of AA). At least a reform would be an attempt at true equality.

 

[harSon]

Discrimination based on race is possible with any system that doesn't involve strict quotas (which are wrong for the same reason as the current implementation of AA). At least a reform would be an attempt at true equality.

It would basically put us back at square one. Instead of a business or school choosing a white men (or women) over minority men (or women) for exterior reasons... we could potentially see businesses or schools choosing poor white men (or women) over poor minority men (or women) for exterior reasons.

 

[Nicktals]

It's probably already been pointed out, but this law already passed in Michigan a year or two ago.

 

[WickedAngel]

It would basically put us back at square one. Instead of a business or school choosing a white men (or women) over minority men (or women) for exterior reasons... we could potentially see businesses or schools choosing poor white men (or women) over poor minority men (or women) for exterior reasons.

...no it wouldn't, actually. As others have pointed out, blacks are overrepresented in terms of low economic standing/poverty. As it stands, any black person (Wealthy or not) stands to benefit from AA because they're black and that is as backwards as the institutionalized racism that this program was intended to fight.

This all stems back to your idea that employment in business should be an exact representation of percentages, which is wholly unrealistic.

 

[mckmas8808]

Pretty much. Two wrongs don't make a right.

So Affirmative Action to you was completley wrong? Are you saying it had no benefits what so ever?

 

[mckmas8808]

...no it wouldn't, actually. As others have pointed out, blacks are overrepresented in terms of low economic standing/poverty. As it stands, any black person (Wealthy or not) stands to benefit from AA because they're black and that is as backwards as the institutionalized racism that this program was intended to fight.

This all stems back to your idea that employment in business should be an exact representation of percentages, which is wholly unrealistic.

The only thing I have to say to you is this....

"What if AA is gone nationally some day and the number for minorities getting jobs and going to college fall by an average of 2% a year?"

What if when AA is gone forever, minorities crime rates go up 8% nationally within 5 years? Would that bother you? And would you blame the dark man for their troubles or will you at that time start to rethink your opinion on AA?

 

[harSon]

...no it wouldn't, actually. As others have pointed out, blacks are overrepresented in terms of low economic standing/poverty. As it stands, any black person (Wealthy or not) stands to benefit from AA because they're black and that is as backwards as the institutionalized racism that this program was intended to fight.

This all stems back to your idea that employment in business should be an exact representation of percentages, which is wholly unrealistic.

Whites still make up nearly half of the United States' poverty stricken in the United States.

 

[WickedAngel]

The only thing I have to say to you is this....

"What if AA is gone nationally some day and the number for minorities getting jobs and going to college fall by an average of 2% a year?"

What if when AA is gone forever, minorities crime rates go up 8% nationally within 5 years? Would that bother you? And would you blame the dark man for their troubles or will you at that time start to rethink your opinion on AA?

Crime rates aren't exactly decreasing rapidly among the demographic you're speaking of (Even with AA in place) so I'm not sure I see your point. Are you suggesting that every black person who gets turned down from a job is going to assume it was racial and go on a rampage?

Whites still make up nearly half of the United States' poverty stricken in the United States.

Does their being white make them less deserving of help?

 

[harSon]

Crime rates aren't exactly decreasing rapidly among the demographic you're speaking of (Even with AA in place) so I'm not sure I see your point. Are you suggesting that every black person who gets turned down from a job is going to assume it was racial and go on a rampage?



Does their being white make them less deserving of help?

I never said they weren't deserving of help. I'm simply saying that people who believe a socio-economic revision would yield near identical results for minorities as the current system are a tad bit delusional.

 

[Zeed]

Ignorant ass people ruin their homes and shit where they eat. Let them wallow in it... The distinction between an nigger and black man is one that needs to be made... The blame's gotta be put on someone and its not the whites or blacks, its the trash and the niggers.

 

[WickedAngel]

I never said they weren't deserving of help. I'm simply saying that people who believe a socio-economic revision would yield near identical results for minorities as the current system are a tad bit delusional.

Which is why I brought up the fact that I don't think employment should be based on some unspoken agenda to ensure that racial demographics are perfectly maintained in the job market.

The current system is still flawed, even when you're only looking at black candidates. If your AA pool is down to a black man from a middle-class neighborhood and another black man that is from a poorer neighborhood, the exact same problem is going to come up. The person that actually needs the job isn't going to get it.

 

[harSon]

Which is why I brought up the fact that I don't think employment should be based on some unspoken agenda to ensure that racial demographics are perfectly maintained in the job market.

The current system is still flawed, even when you're only looking at black candidates. If your AA pool is down to a black man from a middle-class neighborhood and another black man that is from a poorer neighborhood, the exact same problem is going to come up. The person that actually needs the job isn't going to get it.

Your main concern with the current system is that it comes off as racist. Both a race-based and a socio-economic affirmative action are going to be 'racist'. The only difference is one will be controlled while the other has the potential to be less or more racist depending on what happens.

 

[Kitschkraft]

When you shit up your neighborhood with murder, shootings, gang violence and rampant teen pregnancy you do no deserve the same treatment as a society that has it's shit together. Period.

It's about earning you place in this over populated world. If you're a black person who wants a better shot at life and happens to be living in a shitty ghetto get the hell out. It goes without saying. Intelligent black people already know this without my dumbass saying it. Why WOULD anyone want to sponsor or give funding to such a counter productive society? Why would business want to be there? Why would people want to move there? When there is no money flow and you have low expectations of yourself, you have them for your kids. Why would the schools churn out educated kids? Why would those kids grow up to be educated adults? Where does the wheel stop turning? Where's the motivation to end this shit? It starts at a community level. At a family level. Using those fools as an example of what NOT be to yourself and children. You don't level the playing field so those fools are subject to the same chances and consideration that those who know better have. That is madness!

Ignorant ass people ruin their homes and shit where they eat. Let them wallow in it. The struggles that enterprising black people have through an increased amount of hardships are not of the monolithic white corporate doing. It's the fucks that squander their chances and then tear the map and shoot the sign. He has his own kin to thank for that quagmire. The individuals who are wise enough to forsake that repugnant culture does have a rough road ahead.

The distinction between an nigger and black man is one that needs to be made. Or whatever more PC terms you want to use. Regardless there is a clear separation between those willing to carve out and push ahead for a better way of life and those abstain responsibility for their own short comings at every level. Every.single.level.

On one hand you have some blacks who will say they deserves credit for being black and on the other side you have some whites who say he should be denied credit for being black. But he knows better. A man knows he deserves credit for being a fucking man and a man makes himself. There are countless opportunities out there and not a single legitimate excuse for failure.

Discrimination isn't the devil here. Knowing that some people are desirable and that some people aren't is absolutely important to a safe and productive life. Everyone knows this, everyone practices it and without it, it would be impossible to get out of continually self destructive society. The blame's gotta be put on someone and its not the whites or blacks, its the trash and the niggers. There is absolutely a distinction between them and recognizing that is the first step to progress. AA based on race only adds to the problem. Not all black people are the same. Some are more deserving than others. When you enrich and galvanize the weak and ineffective you're not only disrespecting those who are worthy, you're also blurring the line between them. Creating even more hardships that the worthy has to overcome.

An honest society filled with honest men will work it's self out. It's a slow process compared to our individual sense of time. More and more minorities are realizing that race means only as much as you let it and every generation people get more and more enlightened. Eventually the fools and undesirables that ruin it for the rest of us will be bred out and forgotten. A Utopian society has only one universal and acclaimed constant: causality. Not one race, not one culture, not one morality, that shits for the birds. Harmony will come through social honesty.

(Should go without saying but man can easily be replaced woman. Just easier to type man than men and women)

How does one NOT get banned for shit like this?

The distinction between an nigger and black man is one that needs to be made. Or whatever more PC terms you want to use. Regardless there is a clear separation between those willing to carve out and push ahead for a better way of life and those abstain responsibility for their own short comings at every level. Every.single.level.


You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

I swear to god, people like this idiot are why I fear for my nephew half the fucking time when he's outside playing, who knows how many nuts are angry to see a black child grow.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Neocon ploy to bring out the racists in Colorado? A state Obama is more then competitive in?

 

[p_xavier]

How does one NOT get banned for shit like this?

The distinction between an nigger and black man is one that needs to be made. Or whatever more PC terms you want to use. Regardless there is a clear separation between those willing to carve out and push ahead for a better way of life and those abstain responsibility for their own short comings at every level. Every.single.level.


You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

I swear to god, people like this idiot are why I fear for my nephew half the fucking time when he's outside playing, who knows how many nuts are angry to see a black child grow.

The rappers blasted out on Oprah because she didn't act ghetto? Black people I work with are actually scared of going to clubs and such because they don't look "black" enough. That means ganster acting, white people hating and generally caring about hip hop music and bling than anything else.

I'm afraid with the opening of the black-focused school in Toronto, it's only got to get worse. Black people need to deal with the stereotypes, they need to get their act together, they need to clean up the media. They need to work harder to present themselves as leaders not just of their communities but for their country.

I remember last year, I was at McDonald's, and this ghetto looking couple was ordering something, then a really classy black couple entered the restaurant. The ghetto girl starting lashing on her cellphone how the service was lousy and blah blah, while the cash lady just wanted to take her order. The classy lady spit in the face of the ghetto girl, and said, it's because of people like you that our kind can't advance. I laughed but it still was true.

I was doing interviews early this year, arabics, italians, chinese and two black teens. Everyone of them was wearing a suit except the two black guys, who were wearing loose t-shirt and pants. What's the point of affirmative action when the guys can't even bother to look nice. And don't see because it's a money issue, the other kids were just as poor, and there are places to borrow suits for interviews.

I agree about having economic help (i.e. people want to enter university and can't afford), but maybe these kids could afford if the divorce rate wasn't that high in the black community, that you can't blame white people.

I believe in equal opportunities, not in equal life.

 

[harSon]

The rappers blasted out on Oprah because she didn't act ghetto? Black people I work with are actually scared of going to clubs and such because they don't look "black" enough. That means ganster acting, white people hating and generally caring about hip hop music and bling than anything else.

I'm afraid with the opening of the black-focused school in Toronto, it's only got to get worse. Black people need to deal with the stereotypes, they need to get their act together, they need to clean up the media. They need to work harder to present themselves as leaders not just of their communities but for their country.

I remember last year, I was at McDonald's, and this ghetto looking couple was ordering something, then really a really classy black couple entred the restaurant. The ghetto girl starting lashing on her cell phone how the service was lousy and blah blah, while the cash lady just wanted to take her order. The classy lady spit in the face of the other girl, and said, it's because of people like you that our kind can't advance. I laughed but it still was true.

I was doing interviews early this year, arabics, italians, chinese and two black teens. Everyone of them was wearing a suit except the two black guys, which were wearing loose t-shirt and pants. What's the point of affirmative action when the guys can't even bother to look nice. And don't see because it's a money issue, the other kids were just as poor, and there are places to borrow suits for interviews.

I agree about having economic help (i.e. people want to enter university and can't afford), but maybe these kids could afford if the divorce rate wasn't that high in the black community, that you can't blame white people.

I believe in equal opportunities, not in equal life.

I'm fucking done with GAF :lol

 

[Barrett2]

I can't believe Grand Lucifarius hasn't been banned yet. :lol
The mods must all be playing GTA4; GAF is lawless!

Anyways, I stand by my earlier position, AA is a well intentioned, but fatally flawed system. I don't think it is justifiable from a constitutional perspective, IMO.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I'm fucking done with GAF :lol

Don't be man!

You just don't understand what it's like to be an oppressed white guy...

Did I just say that?

Only when equality is truly met can Affirmative Action be truly abolished. We aren't there yet, otherwise Wright wouldn't even be an issue.

 

[p_xavier]

Don't be man!

You just don't understand what it's like to be an oppressed white guy...

Did I just say that?

Only when equality is truly met can Affirmative Action be truly abolished. We aren't there yet, otherwise Wright wouldn't even be an issue.

Don't say oppressed white guy, I'm not even white! I'm arabic.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Don't say oppressed white guy, I'm not even white! I'm arabic.

I'm white, I was just laughing at the prospect of an oppressed white guy.

We don't know a thing about oppression.

We know how to oppress well though.

 

[p_xavier]

I'm white, I was just laughing at the prospect of an oppressed white guy.

We don't know a thing about oppression.

We know how to oppress well though.

Yeah, and it's too easy to feel oppressed too, it doesn't mean that it's actually the other's people fault...

 

[Zeed]

Only when equality is truly met can Affirmative Action be truly abolished.

Equality can never be met so long as Affirmative Action in its current state is still around.

On that note, how the fuck is The Grand Lucifarius still around.

 

[Macam]

Pretty much. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If only AA (and diversity management programs in general) was, in principle, a "wrong". That governments seek to implement policies to address and redress the systematic discrimination against minority groups is not wrong -- at least assuming you believe in providing equal opportunity and some semblance of justice. To suggest that it is simply because it's "reverse discrimination/racism" or that it undermines the concept of meritocracy is to ignore history and the reality of the situation.

Which is why I brought up the fact that I don't think employment should be based on some unspoken agenda to ensure that racial demographics are perfectly maintained in the job market.

WickedAngel: While I understand your viewpoint about trying to focus on socioeconomic status (SES) over race, the problem with your suggestion is that it wouldn't do anything to counter the racial discrimination that AA was intended to combat, even if you take into account that African-Americans are over represented among those with a lower SES. A large number of whites fall into this category and employers exhibiting racist attitudes will simply choose a poor white (likely male) candidate over an equally qualified African-American candidate which simply perpetuates the cycle. HarSon is certainly right about that.

Your suggestion that an AA program based on SES would achieve exactly the same results just isn't true -- and how can they when the very basis on which two such programs are founded on are different? A SES targeted AA program merely attempts to tangentially address the issue of racism on the assumption that African-Americans are over represented among but without explicitly addressing it, it may very well perpetuate it.

I understand your wish to get past what you seem to view as "reverse discrimination" but the reality is that without explicitly targeting it, implementing it nationwide, and educating people about racism and discrimination, racism and discrimination against other groups will (and has) simply move to subtler forms, such as in the hiring process. AA is not an ideal solution, but ideally we would live in a pure meritocracy where racism and discrimination never occurred, but we don't. A lot of people seem to hate the idea of AA because they think it drastically reduces distorts the playing field, but it ignores the fact that the playing field was drastically distorted in the first place. AA, like other diversity programs, is simply an attempt to level it. It's not an attempt to maintain "perfect" racial demographics in the workplace or compensate for past racial discrimination by instituting reverse racial discrimination, but it's an attempt to counter longstanding racial attitudes and increase the opportunities of minorities so that they can have an (ideally) equal opportunity at things like a job.

The Grand Lucifarius: That's just flat out racist, ignorant, and insulting.

 

[Dark Octave]

Because no progress has been made at all, and no progress will ever be made.

Welcome to America, where you are a fucking racist until proven innocent.

That's not what I'm saying. Lots of progress has been made since the days of segregation but it's only been a few decades compared to the centuries of injustice and oppression that black Americans have suffered. So many corporations, businesses, products, communities, that weren't allowed to exist a few decades ago and just began to start to catch up to their white counterparts. This is just the beginning of black equality in America.

So you're telling me that 40 years of somewhat equality makes up for the 550 years of oppression before that? There is generations of healing that still needs to take place. The effects of it still remain. It's going to take well past our lifetimes. At the same time, racism still exists in America on both sides.

There shouldn't even be a need for AA, it shouldn't even have to exist, and I understand that it's not perfect, but I'm all for AA as long as they are in America be it a black owned and run company, white owned and run company, Japanese, Mexican, Middle Eastern, African, Asian, European, or whatever, until something better can be put into place. I hate to see anyone being discriminated against because of their race, including whites, and I have seen it first hand.

@ WickedAngel: I'm not sure that I know what socioeconomic Affirmative Action is. I assume it's based on financial status. I'll read up on it and respond later.

 

[Gig]

a whole lot of crap

 

[avatar299]

You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

I swear to god, people like this idiot are why I fear for my nephew half the fucking time when he's outside playing, who knows how many nuts are angry to see a black child grow.

:lol :lol :lol

Yes, that's exactly what he said.

It is

AA, the way it currently is, only makes sense in a racist context.

 

[avatar299]

That's not what I'm saying. Lots of progress has been made since the days of segregation but it's only been a few decades compared to the centuries of injustice and oppression that black Americans have suffered. So many corporations, businesses, products, communities, that weren't allowed to exist a few decades ago and just began to start to catch up to their white counterparts. This is just the beginning of black equality in America.

And these business, corporation,etc etc only exist becuase of AA?

So you're telling me that 40 years of somewhat equality makes up for the 550 years of oppression before that? There is generations of healing that still needs to take place. The effects of it still remain. It's going to take well past our lifetimes. At the same time, racism still exists in America on both sides.

The people running these businesses are not 550 years old. Our generation is the most progressive in terms of race relations by far.

While the effects of racism still remain, AA isn't getting rid of it. Their dying becuase they are old, and society has deemed not fit to live in the mainstream.

AA is just proof that deep down, no matter how much time passes and how much society changes, minorities still don't trust white people. That's all AA today says. If you really want to help people, reform AA or take off the training wheels.

There shouldn't even be a need for AA, it shouldn't even have to exist, and I understand that it's not perfect, but I'm all for AA as long as they are in America be it a black owned and run company, white owned and run company, Japanese, Mexican, Middle Eastern, African, Asian, European, or whatever, until something better can be put into place. I hate to see anyone being discriminated against because of their race, including whites, and I have seen it first hand.

As long as who is in America?

 

[WickedAngel]

That's not what I'm saying. Lots of progress has been made since the days of segregation but it's only been a few decades compared to the centuries of injustice and oppression that black Americans have suffered. So many corporations, businesses, products, communities, that weren't allowed to exist a few decades ago and just began to start to catch up to their white counterparts. This is just the beginning of black equality in America.

So you're telling me that 40 years of somewhat equality makes up for the 550 years of oppression before that? There is generations of healing that still needs to take place. The effects of it still remain. It's going to take well past our lifetimes. At the same time, racism still exists in America on both sides.

There shouldn't even be a need for AA, it shouldn't even have to exist, and I understand that it's not perfect, but I'm all for AA as long as they are in America be it a black owned and run company, white owned and run company, Japanese, Mexican, Middle Eastern, African, Asian, European, or whatever, until something better can be put into place. I hate to see anyone being discriminated against because of their race, including whites, and I have seen it first hand.

@ WickedAngel: I'm not sure that I know what socioeconomic Affirmative Action is. I assume it's based on financial status. I'll read up on it and respond later.

It's a proposed idea that I don't even think exists yet. It's an idea that would give a competitive edge to the impoverished with comparable skills that would typically be discriminated against because of their low social standing/neighborhood.

 

[Macam]

While the effects of racism still remain, AA isn't getting rid of it. Their dying becuase they are old, and society has deemed not fit to live in the mainstream.

AA is just proof that deep down, no matter how much time passes and how much society changes, minorities still don't trust white people. That's all AA today says. If you really want to help people, reform AA or take off the training wheels.

a) AA isn't designed to single-handedly get rid of racism, b) and no, AA doesn't prove that whatsoever. I'm not sure what you're basing your generalizations off of, but it doesn't hold up to studies on diversity programs and issues, whether it be AA or otherwise.