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[Skiptastic]

This has little to do with affirmative action . . . it is just a red meat issue throw out make sure conservatives go to the polls. It is like the gay marriage bans in past years.

But I thought it was a good thing to get people to vote?

 

[WickedAngel]

A mix of a ridiculous amount of prisons being built and wanting those prisons to be filled for money flow and labor, lopsided prison sentences (Difference in sentencing between Cocaine and Crack Cocaine), racial unfairness, and destruction of the black household.

If black people weren't dealing crack/cocaine, they wouldn't have to deal with lopsided sentences. Don't break the law or hang out with anyone that is breaking the law. If everyone knows that black people are sentenced more strictly, how does it make sense to continue committing crime?

The "destruction of the black household" has nothing to do with anyone but African Americans. The other races aren't forcing minorities to continue to perpetuate the single-parent standard and they certainly aren't the ones who are forcing minorities to kill other minorities.

There are African American-only scholarships and current admission standards that are biased in favor of African Americans. There are government programs that can help people get out of poverty so long as they're used as a means to an end instead of a permanent crutch.

The government did a lot in the past to fuck up the lives of African Americans. There is no way to deny that. The blame for the continued degradation of black society falls elsewhere.

*Edit*

And I just read your story and really wouldn't want to begrudge someone like you of being successful...that isn't really the kind of thing I would want to happen. The point I'm trying to make is that systems like AA, that give advantage based on nothing but skin color, are doing nothing to help the real problem. You can't give people something for free and expect them to turn around and work hard to get the same thing that they were receiving for free (And unfortunately, that's what most of the government assistance programs are doing).

 

[krypt0nian]

I would love to see people's reactions if Sexual Orientation was added to the list of AA groups.

 

[speculawyer]

I'm the product of a rape and was raised by a single mother for the majority of my life, I lived in a ghetto shithole (Homewood, Pittsburgh) for three-fourths of my life, I've lost an older and younger brother to gang violence and a sister to a drunk driver. I currently live in San Jose, CA and am currently attending UC Berkely. I'm well aware of the destruction of the Black home, I lived through it for much of my life. It still doesn't change the fact that Prisons unfairly target minorities (specifically African Americans).

 

[Count Dookkake]

I would love to see people's reactions if Sexual Orientation was added to the list of AA groups.

"How dare you compare the Civil Rights Movement (tm) with the gay agenda!!!!"

:lol

 

[ronito]

I'm willing to be educated. Link me

First google Prisons for Profit tons of stuff there. Some good some clearly biased.

http://www.populistamerica.com/incarceration_nation_the_rise_of_a_prison_industrial_complex

And here's a 1988 from EPI on it. It was bad 20 years ago. Imagine what it is now

http://www.epi.org/studies/prisons-1988.pdf

 

[harSon]

This has nothing to do with prisons, but with AA, which gives a quota for minority in government sponsor work and education.

Basically, how would you feel if Cali had AA, and someone told you the only reason you got into Berkeley was to fill a quota, and not for your hardwork.

Kinda trivialize your hardwork doesntt it?

I'm not in favor of the current version of Affirmative Action, I've already stated that I'm for a revision.

 

[speculawyer]

But I thought it was a good thing to get people to vote?

It is good to get everyone to vote.

But it is just pathetic to see voter requirements passed with a goal of getting certain people not to vote while putting out referendums with a goal of getting certain people to vote.

If you can't win fairly then manipulate the system.

 

[krypt0nian]

"How dare you compare the Civil Rights Movement (tm) with the gay agenda!!!!"

:lol

Love that nonsense! :lol

"My struggle is MOAR than yours!!!one!!!!eleven!!!!"

 

[Gaborn]

Obviously Affirmative Action has to go, but I will say that I don't blame African Americans for supporting it. Why give up on an advantage over other people, the college admissions process is difficult and while anybody who works hard and does the right things can get into a top school, supporting something that gives you an edge is entirely rational.

Still though, it's racist and I think it sends the wrong message. It tends to unfortunately imply that completely qualified blacks may not be admitted into a top schools and I don't think it's fair to say that is the case any more. Just as departments are begging women to enter science and math majors, so too most schools seem to already believe that racial diversity is a good goal. they're not going to EXCLUDE someone because they're black, they're going to try to admit them, but a black student and a white student both should have to work hard and show the results that make them deserve admission.

 

[BobLoblaw]

I can see the benefits of AA, but in this country nowadays, it just causes more friction and resentment among people. I'd have no problem seeing it go. I would, however like to see some stats like 5 years from now to see what kinds of impact it has.

 

[Tideas]

I'm not in favor of the current version of Affirmative Action, I've already stated that I'm for a revision.

and what do you think the revision should be?

you can't stop hate if you perpetuate it in reverse, because it's still unfair.

The only way I would even agree with AA is if someone mentioned, it's income based.

That way, it favors the poor Americans, of all colors and size and orientation.

Then again, that's where Cal grants, pell grants, Smart Grants, subsidized stanford loans come in.

 

[Star Power]

I would love to see people's reactions if Sexual Orientation was added to the list of AA groups.

This is such a ridiculous argument.

 

[ronito]

I actually say let them do it. Then we'll finally have the stats as to whether or not it works. Of course, facts tend to have a liberal bias.

 

[RiskyChris]

If you can't win fairly then manipulate the system.

What do you think campaigning is about? Obama is successful because his campaign can find and target Obama supporters (or people who can be turned into them) and get them to the polls.

 

[Skellig Gra]

AA in the workplace is stupid. I think it is beneficial in creating diversity in a university setting though.

 

[harSon]

If black people weren't dealing crack/cocaine, they wouldn't have to deal with lopsided sentences. Don't break the law or hang out with anyone that is breaking the law. If everyone knows that black people are sentenced more strictly, how does it make sense to continue committing crime?

The "destruction of the black household" has nothing to do with anyone but African Americans. The other races aren't forcing minorities to continue to perpetuate the single-parent standard and they certainly aren't the ones who are forcing minorities to kill other minorities.

There are African American-only scholarships and current admission standards that are biased in favor of African Americans. There are government programs that can help people get out of poverty so long as they're used as a means to an end instead of a permanent crutch.

The government did a lot in the past to fuck up the lives of African Americans. There is no way to deny that. The blame for the continued degradation of black society falls elsewhere.

I'm fucking well aware that much of the blame for our current position in the US lies with us. However, it is not the only reason nor does it change the fact that the United States' prior (and in many cases current) treatment of African Americans and lopsided trends of incarcerations have profound effects as well.

 

[WickedAngel]

This is such a ridiculous argument.

True...homosexuals are still being actively oppressed by the government. I doubt that's what you were aiming for, though.

I'm fucking well aware that much of the blame for our current position in the US lies with us. However, it is not the only reason nor does it change the fact that the United States' prior (and in many cases current) treatment of African Americans and lopsided trends of incarcerations have profound effects as well.

And again, I have to ask. Black people are well aware that they're going to be treated more harshly for crimes...so why do they continue to commit them?

You can't defend criminality based on the idea that they're guilty but being sentenced too harshly. At the end of the day, a criminal is a criminal and they made the choice that put them in the position to be judged.

 

[Gaborn]

I would love to see people's reactions if Sexual Orientation was added to the list of AA groups.

I'd react pretty much the same way. Private Universities can do what they want, but I don't want a publicly funded school to finance discriminatory admissions.

 

[krypt0nian]

This is such a ridiculous argument.

Please inform me. People say this in gay marriage threads all the time with no ground to stand on.

To be clear I didn't post that to be for or against AA. I just think that many who supported it would be OMG NO if gays were protected under the current laws.

 

[Count Dookkake]

To the AA supporters, should Caribbean blacks or FOB Africans be eligible?

 

[Slavik81]

I would love to see people's reactions if Sexual Orientation was added to the list of AA groups.

If I slept with another man to be eligible for a scholarship, would that make me a whore?

 

[Count Dookkake]

Please inform me. People say this in gay marriage threads all the time with no ground to stand on.

To be clear I didn't post that to be for or against AA. I just think that many who supported it would be OMG NO if gays were protected under the current laws.

Well, you did notice how the Defense of Marriage clowns have yet to voice an opinion on the recent polygamy religion scandal...

Cafeteria crusaders.

 

[WickedAngel]

If I slept with another man to be eligible for a scholarship, would that make me a whore?

That'd make you a go-getter.

 

[krypt0nian]

If I slept with another man to be eligible for a scholarship, would that make me a whore?

No. If you slept with 20 men then maybe.

Stats/pics plz.

 

[harSon]

True...homosexuals are still being actively oppressed by the government. I doubt that's what you were aiming for, though.



And again, I have to ask. Black people are well aware that they're going to be treated more harshly for crimes...so why do they continue to commit them?

You can't defend criminality based on the idea that they're guilty but being sentenced too harshly. At the end of the day, a criminal is a criminal and they made the choice that put them in the position to be judged.

Because they were born in conditions that led them down that path?

 

[Skiptastic]

Please inform me. People say this in gay marriage threads all the time with no ground to stand on.

Do gays need assistance in getting into college? Are they abnormally in need of the skills taught at college to gain higher paying employment? Is there a history of stonewalling gays from college?

Those are (I believe) the major points for having affirmative action. It's not just that you're a minority, because I don't know of Asians getting a boost from affirmative action (I could be wrong on that point). If there isn't one of those above reasons, then sexual preference shouldn't play ANY part of getting into college.

 

[Tideas]

I can see the benefits of AA, but in this country nowadays, it just causes more friction and resentment among people. I'd have no problem seeing it go. I would, however like to see some stats like 5 years from now to see what kinds of impact it has.

It has been 11 years since CA ban AA. Let's see the results. UC Berkeley

Ethnicity Final Fall 1996
American Indian 113
African American 605
Chicano/Latino 1,387
Asian American 2,996
White 3,032
Other 131
Not Given 525

Fall 2008
American Indian 60
African American 379
Chicano/Latino 1,580
Asian American 4,793
White 4,034
Other 147
Not Given 916

Well, hey now, the minorities didn't do so bad. Asian Americans increased by almost 1.7k, Latinos increased by 200, African Americans dropped off by 200.

I say, UC Berkeley wise, the lost of AA was a good thing.

Or, are we going to say, Asian Americans aren't minorities?

 

[Star Power]

True...homosexuals are still being actively oppressed by the government. I doubt that's what you were aiming for, though.
.

I'm sorry, not being allowed to get married (and get the tax breaks awarded to married couples) doesn't qualify as being "oppressed." It's laughable to compare the gay rights movement to the civil rights movement, the conditions are in no way comparable.

 

[AntoneM]

Minority doesn't mean less populous, it means less powerful.

buh? So you're saying that the Afrikaners in South Africa were a majority despite being about 10% of the population? That makes no sense.

You can say that the Afrikaners had a majority of the power, but they were not a majority.

 

[Tideas]

I'm sorry, not being allowed to get married (and get the tax breaks awarded to married couples) doesn't qualify as being "oppressed." It's laughable to compare the gay rights movement to the civil rights movement, the conditions are in no way comparable.

considering gays can still go to the polls, work in the military, get the same type of scholarships as everyone else, and get the same jobs as everyone else

 

[Cooter]

And so the thread turns into the usual, "the gay rights struggle is the same as the civil rights struggle." Outstanding!

 

[WickedAngel]

Because they were born in conditions that led them down that path?

Is personal responsibility ever a factor in your arguments?

 

[krypt0nian]

Do gays need assistance in getting into college? Are they abnormally in need of the skills taught at college to gain higher paying employment? Is there a history of stonewalling gays from college?

Those are (I believe) the major points for having affirmative action. It's not just that you're a minority, because I don't know of Asians getting a boost from affirmative action (I could be wrong on that point). If there isn't one of those above reasons, then sexual preference shouldn't play ANY part of getting into college.

Shouldn't that be economic not race?

If there are protected groups, shouldn't all of them be equally protected?

I'm sorry, not being allowed to get married (and get the tax breaks awarded to married couples) doesn't qualify as being "oppressed." It's laughable to compare the gay rights movement to the civil rights movement, the conditions are in no way comparable.

And here it is folks! :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[Star Power]

Please inform me. People say this in gay marriage threads all the time with no ground to stand on.

To be clear I didn't post that to be for or against AA. I just think that many who supported it would be OMG NO if gays were protected under the current laws.

People getting denied entry to a school because of their sexual preference is far, far, far less likely than getting denied because of their race. As far as I know you don't have to say "I'M GAY" on your application, there isn't a legacy of harsh institutional discrimination against gays (at least not on a comparable scale to ethnic minorities). If you're gay and white, you are still white.

 

[Skiptastic]

And again, I have to ask. Black people are well aware that they're going to be treated more harshly for crimes...so why do they continue to commit them?

"People from your world have so *much* to lose. Now, you think that, because your mommy and your daddy got shot, you know about the ugly side of life, but you don't. You've never tasted desperate...This is a world you'll never understand. And you always fear what you don't understand."

 

[Gaborn]

I'm sorry, not being allowed to get married (and get the tax breaks awarded to married couples) doesn't qualify as being "oppressed." It's laughable to compare the gay rights movement to the civil rights movement, the conditions are in no way comparable.

Yeah, it's not like we weren't killed, subject to electro-shock therapy, beaten, and generally mistreated throughout history. It's not like homosexuality was ever considered grounds for firing anyone, nor was it ever considered a form of mental illness.

 

[WickedAngel]

considering gays can still go to the polls, work in the military, get the same type of scholarships as everyone else, and get the same jobs as everyone else

...so long as they don't say they're gay.

"People from your world have so *much* to lose. Now, you think that, because your mommy and your daddy got shot, you know about the ugly side of life, but you don't. You've never tasted desperate...This is a world you'll never understand. And you always fear what you don't understand."

Oh yummy, another implication that all whites have the world handed to them on a platter.

 

[krypt0nian]

People getting denied entry to a school because of their sexual preference is far, far, far less likely than getting denied because of their race. As far as I know you don't have to say "I'M GAY" on your application, there isn't a legacy of harsh institutional discrimination against gays (at least not on a comparable scale to ethnic minorities). If you're gay and white, you are still white.

Protected rights should be across the board.

 

[Tideas]

http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1126&context=gseis/interactions

The results of affirmative action bans such as Proposition 209 in California, which prohibits university admission offices from considering race, sex or ethnicity in its decisions, varied from state to state. However, general trends emerged to confirm that Asian American students are disadvantaged in a race-conscious admission system, according to the study which was published in InterActions: UCLA Journal of Education and Information Studies.

Like I said, AA is bad, at least in the education system, for other minorities like Asian Americans.

So, being Asian Americans myself, boo AA. Go away!

 

[Star Power]

And here it is folks! :lol :lol :lol :lol

I mean, if it makes you feel better to say you're part of an "oppressed minority" because you're gay , even though you're still white and middle-class and pretty fucking well-off otherwise, be my guest.

 

[Skiptastic]

Shouldn't that be economic not race?

If there are protected groups, shouldn't all of them be equally protected?

Well, now you're asking me to make arguments for the side I disagree with...I'm the one who said we should do it based on economics!

Someone else take over that believes it should stay on a racial basis.

Oh yummy, another implication that all whites have the world handed to them on a platter.

Hey, this is GAF OT. You gotta expect Batman Begins quotes, whether or not they work perfectly. :lol

 

[Count Dookkake]

People getting denied entry to a school because of their sexual preference is far, far, far less likely than getting denied because of their race. As far as I know you don't have to say "I'M GAY" on your application, there isn't a legacy of harsh institutional discrimination against gays (at least not on a comparable scale to ethnic minorities). If you're gay and white, you are still white.

If you are a bi-racial mix of white and something else, you are still white. Just put that on the form and you're sure to get into a good school.

 

[Gaborn]

http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1126&context=gseis/interactions



Like I said, AA is bad, at least in the education system, for other minorities like Asian Americans.

The real problem is Asians get it from both sides. They have a tougher chance of getting into colleges because of AA, but ALSO because of discriminatory Legacy admissions, which overwhelmingly benefit whites. I support an end to AA, but also to legacy admissions. Colleges should admit people based on merit, not because someone's father or grandfather went there.

 

[Star Power]

Aren't white-women the biggest benefactors of Afirmative-Action anyway? Why are we acting like benefits black people disproportionately.

 

[harSon]

Is personal responsibility ever a factor in your arguments?

Yes. Is the possibility of a person living in Compton having a lesser chance at life then someone born in Palm Beach a factor in yours?

 

[WickedAngel]

The real problem is Asians get it from both sides. They have a tougher chance of getting into colleges because of AA, but ALSO because of discriminatory Legacy admissions, which overwhelmingly benefit whites. I support an end to AA, but also to legacy admissions. Colleges should admit people based on merit, not because someone's father or grandfather went there.

Agree 100% to that.

Yes. Is the possibility of a person living in Compton having a lesser chance at life then someone born in Palm Beach a factor in yours?

No, it isn't. A motivated person can get themselves out a poor situation, even if they were born into it. You make it sound like there has never been a successful African American.

*Edit*

Actually, I will say that they have a lesser chance but it's not because of anything outside of the culture of their people (A culture that glorifies the drug trade, disrespect of women, and discourages intelligence). If you're a bookworm in Compton, there isn't much that the government can do about keeping your peers from killing you. Too successful? You're not "keeping it real" or being "black enough".

 

[Tideas]

The real problem is Asians get it from both sides. They have a tougher chance of getting into colleges because of AA, but ALSO because of discriminatory Legacy admissions, which overwhelmingly benefit whites. I support an end to AA, but also to legacy admissions. Colleges should admit people based on merit, not because someone's father or grandfather went there.

that's true, legacy admission is dumb, but luckily, for what I know, it only afflicts the Ivy league colleges, but even now I think those schools are moving away from it

 

[Star Power]

If you are a bi-racial mix of white and something else, you are still white. Just put that on the form and you're sure to get into a good school.

That is not a good analogy. Gay is not a physical characteristic. When people meet me they don't know I'm gay/bi, they do know that I'm black. Even if I'm bi-racial.

 

[JzeroT1437]

"Today, more African-American men are in jail than in college. In 2000 there were 791,600 black men in prison and 603,032 enrolled in college. In 1980, there were 143,000 black men in prison and 463,700 enrolled in college."

I can pretty much guarantee that if people want to go to college, they can get in somewhere. At my university, if you can find the funding and get higher than a 13 on your ACT, you're in. The prison thing is more closely tied to a need to keep prisons filled so as to create a need for more federal penitentiaries, thereby drawing more funding for the state, but it could also be said that if a person is in jail, they probably did something to end up there.

Having absurd rules mandating percentages of how many people of one race you must employ and whatnot only encourages the idea that people are inherently different and must be treated as such.