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[Sunster]

"aggressive vegans" the new, "feminazis" convenient reasons to ignore legitimate causes.

 

[jetjevons]

Because the industrial meat market is SO great for our planet.

 

[BigDes]

"aggressive vegans" the new, "feminazis" convenient reasons to ignore legitimate causes.

Basically, using the actions of a few idiots to discount the entire message.

 

[Circinus]

Your point about murder makes no sense too. If someone breaks into your house with you inside, has a knife and threatens your family, you *would* injure or possibly straight up kill him if you had to. And you're designed through the release of adrenaline to do just that. We would also view that decision as morally right too.

No idea why you're bringing a specific scenario into this. That's besides the point.


I am saying that we have evolutionary adaptations to be really effective at murdering each other. We have large brains, high manual dexterity, which have allowed us to craft sophisticated, advanced weapons that are very effective at killing each other. And we can use those weapons to kill each other, and as a species we have done just that throughout our history, especially in the last thousands of years because the weapons became more effective of course (and because of organization as well). So it's a fact that we have that ability. In other words we are "designed" to kill each other under whatever circumstances, not just for self-defence.

We are "designed" in your words to do things that we would consider immoral.

Of course, I do think violence can be morally justified in some cases and so does society, but it can be completely immoral just as well. To follow your example, I would consider it completely immoral to kill or shoot a non-threatening unarmed burglar.

The point is we as a species are supposed to eat meat,

That's nonsense. Supposed according to whom or what? Read my replies again.

Nature doesn't prescribe organisms with certain diets. Otherwise evolution wouldn't even be able to occur (how would changes even occur if every organism would have to follow to strictly the diet of its ancestors?). So nature doesn't work that way. Nature has a few quentessential laws and that's it. Anything can happen within the realms of those laws.

It's completely "natural" or "how it's supposed to be by nature" that a certain organism evolves to use and modify their surroundings, evolves to organize themselves in large, complex societies and also evolves to be aware of their environment, evolves to be considerate for other animals, evolves to develop science/technology to better understand their own biology and dietary needs and evolves/adapts as a society to transition to more plant-based food production.

And we know that humans happen to have evolutionary adaptations towards multiple kinds of foods. We know that humans are well adapted for eating plant matter. We know that humans are well adapted to eating some meat. And dietary science has shown that a balanced, fully plant-based / vegan diet is healthful for all stages of life. (I'm of course not saying that meat is unhealthy or something, it is generally not)

Like I said, there's nothing magical or something about the food we eat. It's just organic molecules with some minerals. There's nothing magical about meat.

Dietary science and biochemistry has shown us that meat doesn't contain compounds that are essential to human health that we can't get from plants or create in labs with other organisms.

So according to whom or what are we supposed to eat meat?

and even though you can cobble together a balanced diet through veganism through the miracle of capitalism

Yes, anything wrong with that? Maybe it could be done without capitalism as well.

eating meat is the simplest and most preferred solution for humanity because it's what our bodies have literally been designed to do inside and out for millions of years.

Your summary here is just the incorrect leaps in logic I refuted in previous replies already.


You didn't show why it is the most preferred solution for humanity at all.

And just FYI our hominid ancestors have "only" been eating meat starting from up to ~2.5 million years BP (and like I said it took another 800 000 years before we know for sure that they started actively hunting and weren't opportunistic scavengers eating plants and carrion anymore), not a long period in the whole 60-million years timeline of the primate evolution tree. All the millions of years prior to those last 2.5 million our primate ancestors were eating plants, fruits and insects. For dozens of millions years. Of course that doesn't mean we are "supposed to eat" plants, fruit and insects, I'm just saying that human evolution didn't just start when at the point that our ancestors started eating meat.

But so what does that mean for us today? That we now have to eat meat otherwise we die? Not what dietary science has shown us.

 

[Lagamorph]

"aggressive vegans" the new, "feminazis" convenient reasons to ignore legitimate causes.

Being vegan isn't a cause.

 

[m3k]

my ex was vegan.... i never met an aggressive one

to be honest a lot of people can be really fuckin annoying about eating meat

 

[Sunster]

Being vegan isn't a cause.

people use the aggressive vegan idea to ignore animal rights issues concerning livestock. people use the feminazi idea to ignore feminism.

 

[typist]

The food and water we use to feed livestock could keep hundreds of millions of people alive. Going vegan would also reduce greenhouse gas emissions by about 25%

Is it wrong to be aggressive about the truth? The agriculture industry is not sustainable, we can either change it up or go extinct

 

[DiipuSurotu]

The food and water we use to feed livestock could keep hundreds of millions of people alive. Going vegan would also roughly halve greenhouse gas emissions.

Is it wrong to be aggressive about the truth? The agriculture industry is not sustainable, we can either change it up or go extinct

It's like talking to Trump supporters. They're not going to listen either way :/

 

[typist]

It's like talking to Trump supporters. They're not going to listen either way :/

Some people might. I listened and changed at some point, you probably did too xP
Seems easier the younger someone is though. Older folks seem to get set in their ways.

 

[The Faceless Master]

also black lives matter causes racism

first thing that came to mind and i'm not even vegan.

 

[Polioliolio]

The idea of aggressive vegans is a myth. It's a stereotype and sensitive snowflakes think they're being persecuted against because they've once heard a vocal vegan.

It's much like how Christians think they're being persecuted.

 

[squall23]

I honestly don't see the point of doing any of this on both sides. Omnivores aren't going to stop vegans from living their life and vice versa.

Meat is delicious, but I'm not going to be a jackass towards people who have a differing opinion.

 

[Kwhit10]

People don't like being told they're assholes.

News at 11.

Edit: My comments was directed at all those assclown vegans who go around proclaiming themselves superior to everyone else and calling you a monster for eating meat.

Who the fuck wants to put up with that?

There are ass clown omnivores who think they are so alpha because they eat meat and are the top of the food chain.

There are aggressive people in all type of 'groups'

 

[megatronium]

Peeked in this thread because my wife wants our family to go vegan for a week then decide if we stick to it. Having a couple steaks this morning before trying it out.

 

[G.ZZZ]

The food and water we use to feed livestock could keep hundreds of millions of people alive. Going vegan would also roughly halve greenhouse gas emissions.

Is it wrong to be aggressive about the truth? The agriculture industry is not sustainable, we can either change it up or go extinct

It wouldn't half emissions at all. Most estimates are around 25% which is still huge mind you. Also, utilizing livestock in a way that emulate natural herding massively reduce emissions too, as it help the soil absorb carbon . It's estimated that using planned grazing to restore desertified areas, we would absorb all the excess carbon by covering about half of the current desertified land. Keep in mind that said form of livestock farming would only be good for local farming and its cost wouldn't make it sustainable form large scale consumption.

We don't need to falsify claims to support our needs. Real facts are good enough already.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

"aggressive vegans" the new, "feminazis" convenient reasons to ignore legitimate causes.

"Uppity Blacks"
"Militant Atheists"
"Loud Gays"

Basically another day that ends in "y".

 

[tattooed_dwarf]

Weird, I have never met these aggressive vegans. But after someone admits being vegan, there is always these "alpha" people telling how they eat meat, how vegans don't get enough protein etc. And then they ask why are those people vegan, and get so defensive when vegan calmly tells why that's the case.

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

The food and water we use to feed livestock could keep hundreds of millions of people alive. Going vegan would also roughly halve greenhouse gas emissions.

Is it wrong to be aggressive about the truth? The agriculture industry is not sustainable, we can either change it up or go extinct

I don't live my life only doing what's most efficient or healthy. Meat tastes good so I eat it. That's a out the gist of it.

 

[typist]

It wouldn't half emissions at all. Most estimates are around 25% which is still huge mind you. Also, utilizing livestock in a way that emulate natural herding massively reduce emissions too, as it help the soil absorb carbon . It's estimated that using planned grazing to restore desertified areas, we would absorb all the excess carbon by covering about half of the current desertified land. Keep in mind that said form of livestock farming would only be good for local farming and its cost wouldn't make it sustainable form large scale consumption.

We don't need to falsify claims to support our needs. Real facts are good enough already.

Wasn't falsifying claims, just misremembered the stat. Thank you for the correction though, stops me from making an ass of myself in the future xP

I don't live my life only doing what's most efficient or healthy. Meat tastes good so I eat it. That's a out the gist of it.

I don't always do what's most efficient or healthy either, some small amounts of inefficiency and bad decisions are tolerable, especially since there are some grey areas where it's not exactly clear what is the most efficient or healthy choice. But we're wasting gross amounts of food and water on livestock. The climate issue is kind of secondary to me since it's such a slow moving threat but it's also important. We could've solved world hunger decades ago if we just stopped farming animals though. That thought alone might be enough to sour the taste of meat for you, it certainly did for me.

 

[Iorv3th]

My mother in law is a bitch about being vegan. And most of the stuff she preaches just puts it in a negative light because a lot of it is untrue and she preaches it as if it's the absolute truth.

She had a friend of hers come down with cancer and died. One of her daughters posted something on facebook about her mom and my MIL went on a rant about how she gave herself cancer and killed herself because she ate eat and didn't switch to veganism and how the cancer would have regressed if she had just done that.

And every conversation she has is about her diet.

I am positive that attitudes like that piss enough people off to never consider veganism just as a fuck you to that person.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

In reality it just bad all around to give advice to people.

 

[Nerazar]

Being vegan isn't a cause.

I beg to differ. Except if you think that the environment is not a cause.

 

[sensui-tomo]

My mother in law is a bitch about being vegan. And most of the stuff she preaches just puts it in a negative light because a lot of it is untrue and she preaches it as if it's the absolute truth.

She had a friend of hers come down with cancer and died. One of her daughters posted something on facebook about her mom and my MIL went on a rant about how she gave herself cancer and killed herself because she ate eat and didn't switch to veganism and how the cancer would have regressed if she had just done that.

And every conversation she has is about her diet.

I am positive that attitudes like that piss enough people off to never consider veganism just as a fuck you to that person.

So how are holiday dinners? Do they leave the table if you serve turkey on Thanksgiving. God that sounds like a literal hell having to be family with someone who outright said that someone gave themselves cancer.

 

[Iorv3th]

So how are holiday dinners? Do they leave the table if you serve turkey on Thanksgiving. Good that sounds like a literal hell having to be family with someone who outright said that someone gave themselves cancer.

She brings her own food to every event. She will sit at the table, but she has to make her own separate meal every time.

 

[HardRojo]

I might consider going half vegan in the future, no way I'll ever stop eating those delicious steaks and hamburgers, but I could try and maybe have a vegan diet 3 days a week. I find "aggressive vegans" who stand outside fast-food restaurants or perform crazy stunts inside malls (that chicken funeral and the picture about someone surprised at a pork "corpse" wrapped in plastic come to mind) really stupid, that's not the way to go about things like this. Veganism should be promoted differently from other movements such as BLM, the latter is fine being more aggressive, but if you act like a smug fucker who pretends to be above everyone just because you follow a vegan lifestyle, don't expect other people to listen.

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

Being Vegan, yeah, there's absolutely some of this out there.

There's also a weirdly hostile online presence of folks who hate the mere existence of vegans. My fiancé and I have both, just by casually mentioning our veganism on Twitter, been harassed by people sending us pictures of things like cheeseburgers and slabs of meat. As if we're some kind of emotionally unstable children who don't live in a world where we see people eating meat at every waking moment, or have never eaten meat ourselves. Lol.

And people wonder how vegans could possibly be bitter or defensive. The stigma against them is incredibly heavy. But eating meat is so normal and vegans are such a small minority, harassing them or making fun of them or ignoring them is generally quite acceptable. In fact it's done without any awareness all the time, just like people use to not be aware of their racism or sexism cause it's just how people acted.

Being vegan fucking sucks, and not because of the food. I'm not one anymore but I still sympathize.

 

[entremet]

I'm basically 90 percent vegan these days. I think vegan advocacy groups should focus on reducing overall meat consumption over complete abstention. Complete abstention is not a realistic goal. We do eat way too much meat, especially in Western cultures.

 

[Sulik2]

my cousins wife cannot be in the same house if theres food that isnt 100% vegan being eaten or cooked. she will leave and sit outside during meals.

painted a pretty sour picture of vegans for them

Yup vegans are lunatics. How you eat is your choice stop condemning others over it.

 

[HardRojo]

I'm basically 90 percent vegan these days. I think vegan advocacy groups should focus on reducing overall meat consumption over complete abstention. Complete abstention is not a realistic goal. We do eat way too much meat, especially in Western cultures.

Yep, as well as fighting for better ways of handling livestock and how slaughterhouses work. People avoiding all kinds of meat and animal-derived products is simply not a realistic scenario even in a thousand years.

 

[Quixzlizx]

It seems pretty simple to me.

If someone comes up to me while I'm eating lunch and starts ranting about how meat is murder, I'm going to get up and move away from the obnoxious person.

I'm also not going to be an obnoxious person myself and ask why someone is only eating "rabbit food."

Amusingly enough, the food I bring to work is essentially vegan (trail mix, lentils and rice, avocolada smoothies) just because I'm lazy and don't want to prepare meat dishes for my breakfast/lunch every day, so I have people asking whether I'm a vegetarian in the break room.

 

[V_Arnold]

Yep, as well as fighting for better ways of handling livestock and how slaughterhouses work. People avoiding all kinds of meat and animal-derived products is simply not a realistic scenario even in a thousand years.

Its already doable on small scale, so I would not say a thousand years, no. It is achievable if that is a goal humanity sets its mind to achieve. It is currently not. Simple as that.

 

[haimon]

Back when Gary youpersky (or whatever his name is) put out his video my Facebook was full of people talking about how it changed their life and so on.

Don't see much agressive vegans now but back then it was annoying as fuck as tons of people were talking about going vegan and how awful you were if you didn't do it.

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

Wasn't falsifying claims, just misremembered the stat. Thank you for the correction though, stops me from making an ass of myself in the future xP

I don't always do what's most efficient or healthy either, some small amounts of inefficiency and bad decisions are tolerable, especially since there are some grey areas where it's not exactly clear what is the most efficient or healthy choice. But we're wasting gross amounts of food and water on livestock. The climate issue is kind of secondary to me since it's such a slow moving threat but it's also important. We could've solved world hunger decades ago if we just stopped farming animals though. That thought alone might be enough to sour the taste of meat for you, it certainly did for me.

Yeah, i see that argument a lot but i dont for a second believe governments in 1st world countries would kill the livestock markets in their countries in order to grow more food for people in 3rd world countries or even the poor in their own countries. Its about as believable as the tooth fairy. Therefore i dont let that notion enter into my decision to eat meat.

 

[GreatestHits]

Study finds what the study wants. I wish I was vegan, but it's hard to pull off. I think there is more reasons floating around that encourage veganism compared to the few aggressive assholes this story is trying to put on blast

 

[.J.]

Being Vegan, yeah, there's absolutely some of this out there.

There's also a weirdly hostile online presence of folks who hate the mere existence of vegans. My fiancé and I have both, just by casually mentioning our veganism on Twitter, been harassed by people sending us pictures of things like cheeseburgers and slabs of meat. As if we're some kind of emotionally unstable children who don't live in a world where we see people eating meat at every waking moment, or have never eaten meat ourselves. Lol.

I've been a vegan for about five years now. I can say beyond any doubt that 1) meat eaters bring up my veganism 1,000,000% more often than I do, and 2) meat eaters are WAY more aggressive and obnoxious about my veganism than I could ever try to be. This is just IRL. Online, it's even worse. I mean, see Reddit on any given day or huge parts of this thread as evidence that non-vegans are much more vocal about supposed asshole vegans (I suspect most have never actually met a vegan) than vegans are vocal about veganism itself.

So tired of the angry aggressive vegan stereotype when experience bears out the opposite, at least for me: vegans I know and see are usually nice, quiet, nonpushy and positive people, whereas carnists can be defensive, fragile, annoying bullies who can't handle an alternative lifestyle existing in their presence or headspace.

A lot of us go out of our way to NOT be pushy or aggressive because we dont want to feed into that stereotype, and it's gotten to the point that just asking a restaurant if they have a vegan option feels like a major fucking affront. Nobody should feel this self conscious just for trying to do the right thing.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

It wouldn't half emissions at all. Most estimates are around 25% which is still huge mind you. Also, utilizing livestock in a way that emulate natural herding massively reduce emissions too, as it help the soil absorb carbon . It's estimated that using planned grazing to restore desertified areas, we would absorb all the excess carbon by covering about half of the current desertified land. Keep in mind that said form of livestock farming would only be good for local farming and its cost wouldn't make it sustainable form large scale consumption.

We don't need to falsify claims to support our needs. Real facts are good enough already.

This is even too much.

25% is land use. Not all land use is used to feed livestock/is livestock.

I've been constantly hearing the "eating meat is over half of our total emissions" and I get so fucking frustrated when it's always the one stupid study that was basically tossed because of how horrible their methods were for counting emissions (they were basically double counting emissions).

The thing is, vegans are right. Eating less meat reduces emissions, reduces the money flowing into shitty practices that are horrible for animals and the environment.

But like all things, people go way too far and produce horribly incorrect facts when trying to prove an argument or show others why their lifestyle is a better one to live.

Yes, if everyone switched non-meat we would reduce a decent chunk of emissions pretty fast. Obviously, that's not actually realistic and a far more feasible way to reduce emissions are changing our energy infrastructure and transportation to non-carbon sources using already existing technology (which account for around 40%, not even counting industry).

You can be aggressive with the truth, but you'll lose allies when your truth is twisted or just wrong and you have to be called out on it.

I'll never be a vegan, but that doesn't mean I haven't changed my habits to reduce impact. I eat far less red meat because chicken is a far more carbon friendly meat. It's not perfect, but it's better than constantly consuming steak. I don't care about killing animals for food, the only animal I feel a bit iffy about are pigs because they aren't dumb as bricks like cows or chickens. Doesn't mean any animal deserves some of the horrible living conditions.

Using "shame" when the other person doesn't actually care about something doesn't really work either. Maybe I'm just desensitized or I actually understand that my food comes from animals getting their throats slit, but I always laugh when I see people who try and convince others using slaughter house videos of animal brutality to shame or convince people to not eat meat (it's a horrible argument because you can support laws that prevent abuse/shitty habits and still enjoy meat).

And like all things, if you try to shame someone who isn't actually interested in listening to you or interested at all in a lifestyle change, you'll always get a negative reactions because fuck you it's none of your business what I do with my life. Even if you do have good intentions.

TLDR: Vegans are right when it comes to the environment and animals living in shitty conditions (but I see a lot of false statements used to prove already true points), you can't really convince people of lifestyle changes online, especially when you try and shame someone who wasn't all that interested in the first place.

 

[astroturfing]

my only problem with veganism is that its an ism. it should just be a boycott of unethical products/practices, not some exclusive group you join and have to follow certain strict rules and never slip up or else you're an outcast and not worthy of the title vegan anymore..

i would take the movement much more seriously if it dropped the cultish aspects. "you put honey in your tea last week? you cant call yourself vegan anymore, go away!"... ugh. to be perfectly honest though i have NOT bumped into these obnoxious attitudes lately, most vegans seem to be more chill nowadays which is great.

but like, if i myself stopped eating pigs and cows (which indeed would be the ethical thing to do), i would not take up any title for myself, or adopt any ism. i'd just be a person who boycotts these things, it wouldnt be an ism that defines my whole life and personality..

dunno, maybe im an asshole and totally wrong on this? just thinking out loud.

 

[funkystudent]

It aint just vegans. Lots of life style choices and causes that sound great have image problems and have a hard time gaining more support all due to a loud and obnoxious few at the forefront.

 

[typist]

Yeah, i see that argument a lot but i dont for a second believe governments in 1st world countries would kill the livestock markets in their countries in order to grow more food for people in 3rd world countries or even the poor in their own countries. Its about as believable as the tooth fairy. Therefore i dont let that notion enter into my decision to eat meat.

Governments in first world countries sometimes do what they're voted in to do. If we had vegan candidates running for positions of power and stuff, and if people were voting for them because they understood the value of resource optimisation, then we would have solved world hunger xP

It's not just world hunger either though. I remember reading the unrest in Syria just before the civil war had a lot to do with water scarcity, dunno how true that was but maybe the whole migration crisis could've been avoided if we weren't wasting so much water on cows. First world countries need to realise that they are connected to third world countries and the problems of one country will, if not solved, eventually flow over borders

 

[Maebe]

Really stupid to hold back on doing something you want to do because some assholes do it too. Assholes also shower but that won't stop me from doing it.

 

[.J.]

my only problem with veganism is that its an ism. it should just be a boycott of unethical products/practices, not some exclusive group you join and have to follow certain strict rules and never slip up or else you're an outcast and not worthy of the title vegan anymore..

i would take the movement much more seriously if it dropped the cultish aspects. "you put honey in your tea last week? you cant call yourself vegan anymore, go away!"... ugh. to be perfectly honest though i have NOT bumped into these obnoxious attitudes lately, most vegans seem to be more chill nowadays which is great.

but like, if i myself stopped eating pigs and cows (which indeed would be the ethical thing to do), i would not take up any title for myself, or adopt any ism. i'd just be a person who boycotts these things, it wouldnt be an ism that defines my whole life and personality..

dunno, maybe im an asshole and totally wrong on this? just thinking out loud.

I mean, speaking for myself, but that's kind of arbitrary. I "call" myself a vegan because that's what somebody who abstains from all animal products is called. It's not a cult. I don't shun people. I don't fear being shunned. In fact, I feel like the bolder part above is at the very least a very silly and alarmist exaggeration. I don't know. It's hard to read tone and intent online.

But think of it this way. Are you equally upset at people who call themselves vegetarians? VegetarianISM is a thing.

Again, I feel like people are responding to the myth of the vegan instead of anything else. You can't throw the validity of something out because of a couple of clumsy assholes. Imagine somebody condemning BLM because of alleged looters. Or people condemning feminists because of Zarna Joshi's bullshit. Or pick literally any other thing. The sensitivity around veganism when people overlook so much else boggles the mind. I guess it's just safe and easy to dismiss vegans.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

people use the aggressive vegan idea to ignore animal rights issues concerning livestock. people use the feminazi idea to ignore feminism.

Naw. I'm sure most people who don't financially benefit from poor farming conditions would be OK with better conditions. How you deliver your message counts. An obnoxious tone will send almost all away.

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

Governments in first world countries sometimes do what they're voted in to do. If we had vegan candidates running for positions of power and stuff, and if people were voting for them because they understood the value of resource optimisation, then we would have solved world hunger xP

It's not just world hunger either though. I remember reading the unrest in Syria just before the civil war had a lot to do with water scarcity, dunno how true that was but maybe the whole migration crisis could've been avoided if we weren't wasting so much water on cows. First world countries need to realise that they are connected to third world countries and the problems of one country will, if not solved, eventually flow over borders

That's an awful lot of "ifs" that have no shot of taking place. And you still left out the "if" the lobbyists didn't use their influence to keep the meat and fast food industry alive in spite of public pressure.

It's like if I played the powerball, and if I won, I might have a chance to date Rihanna.

 

[TriniTrin]

Do these kind of threads always devolve into "I know shitty vegans" "oh fuck you I know shitty meet eaters"

It's kinda funny that eating/not eating meat causes this amazing debate of I know someone who is an asshole that likes what you like. LOL

On topic, people should just stay out of other people's business. If someone eats meat then leave em alone. If someone is eating plants, leave them alone.

Is it because of the political and environmental effects association with raising and slaughter of animals for food that cause these "Agressive Vegans"?

 

[Inferno313]

Naw. I'm sure most people who don't financially benefit from poor farming conditions would be OK with better conditions. How you deliver your message counts. An obnoxious tone will send almost all away.

This is the type of shit diet racists say about BLM. Just pointing that out.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

This is the type of shit diet racists say about BLM. Just pointing that out.

That's fine. No one likes to be lectured or feel belittled. It's common for people to get defensive. Saying it's used by racists doesn't invalidate it.

 

[Air]

Noone likes being proselytized to

 

[Fuchsdh]

People also lived until 40

This far into this thread and there's still posters proving they don't bother reading anything and love demonstrating how they don't understand basic stuff like mortality rates.

 

[Unbounded]

I'm basically 90 percent vegan these days. I think vegan advocacy groups should focus on reducing overall meat consumption over complete abstention. Complete abstention is not a realistic goal. We do eat way too much meat, especially in Western cultures.

I can respect this sort of reasonable argument, and as someone who has meat with every meal I would still be willing to give reducing my meat consumption a shot.

Though it all hinges on whether or not I can find good, filling non-meat meals.

This is the type of shit diet racists say about BLM. Just pointing that out.

It's a good thing that BLM and Veganism are two wholly different things and not remotely comparable then.