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"Aggressive vegans" are putting off people from changing eating habits, study finds
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
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Subpar Spatula
Banned
We are hunters. We're a civilization of hunters. Being efficient and corralling our prey still means we're hunters. Killing animals and eating them means we're predators. The process is semantics.
Muppet of a Man
Member
Humans of antiquity's diet varied immensely by their environment. Humans living within the tropics typically had a varied diet, with lots of vegetation and more modest amounts of game and fruit.
They would be more accurately called gatherer-hunters than the other way around.
But their diets could hinge more on staples if they were in an environment with limited flora and/or fauna. Humans are adaptable omnivores in this way because it enabled the species to survive through more trying time.
My reference to our ancestors in my first post was actually referring to much more recent history (the last 200 years).
Personally I find 'not caring' helps me sleep just fine.
That's what a lot of vegans don't grasp. A lot of meat eaters straight up don't care.
Do I want animals to suffer? No. Would I rather farms were ethical about treatment? Yes if you are asking me. Am I going to start researching different farms and companies or stop eating meat or actually do anything about it? Hell no.
At the end of the day they're just animals, and people were designed to eat meat. I have never given a penny to an animal charity and never will until the day all human diseases are cured.
Processed gluten, derived from plants, does far more demonstrable harm than meat production, and that's including mass processed pink slime and shit like that.
So maybe we should all go hardcore paleo?
Or maybe there's a middle ground where people can eat what they want but we implement a system of intelligently thought out best practices to make all of our food better for us, better for the environment, and hell, maybe even more cost efficient if we really commit to it and see the refinements and process improvements that are out there to be discovered.
cpp_is_king
Member
Last time I checked we did not yet have the technology to read the thoughts of other species. I can wager a guess that small to medium sized predators that feed on smaller prey do not feel sorry for their food when they kill it, but do feel upset when their mates or children are eaten by larger predators. But given that it is a natural part of the animal kingdom and most living species behave this way, I also don't think they are sitting around holding meetings about what to do about the evil predator problem, since they themselves are predators and understand the way biological systems and the world works.
In that respect, I'm like them. I don't really care, I just want to eat (other animals)
This part is true which is interesting because of all the vegans I've encountered in my life, non of them were well off and many were black. The only one I currently know is white but not at all well off.
But the rest of it, not so much. Those expensive vegan products are extras not necessities, a more financially secure persons version of tv dinners and instant food. I eat a lot of noodles with veggies (mainly carrots potatoes and cabbage), curried veggies, rice and beans, and oatmeal
I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian but often go weeks without meat or eggs especially in the summer (even though I love eggs)
The average person has nothing to do with meat until they buy it pre-slaughtered and packaged. They're not involved in any kind of hunting process (or "hunting" process), they don't need to hunt they can go to the store.
The necessity is removed. People don't hunt. Your semantics argument is pretty flimsy.
Lonewulfeus
Member
People as in individuals no, people as in the human race... Hunters! This isn't a hard concept to grab why be so obtuse?
The people who think vegans are preachy and pretentious by default are just being as idiotic as those pretentious vegans they're thinking about.
Guess why you never meet 'normal', unpretentious vegans? Because they never bring it up so you would never know these vegans and thus would never think of any normal person as "vegan". Basically it's a self-reinforcing hypothesis/stereotype because there's no way to account for the negation of the hypothesis.
Guess why you never meet 'normal', unpretentious vegans? Because they never bring it up so you would never know these vegans and thus would never think of any normal person as "vegan". Basically it's a self-reinforcing hypothesis/stereotype because there's no way to account for the negation of the hypothesis.
GeordieMark
Member
It's possible to have the moral high ground but still be a dickhead. I've met vegans like this, but it's certainly not a trait unique to them
The human race are not hunters if people as individuals on average aren't, though. We've grown out of the need for it therefore we're not any more.
Are you trolling me?
R10Neymarfan
Member
Because we the species has evolved. We don't hunt we now purposely breed and group many animals for a diet that hasn't proven to be healthy to you, the earth, or the animals thenselves.
You want to say you are a hunter than get your meat by hunting wild game or raising your own cattle and personally slaughter, slice, and cook the meat yourself.
cpp_is_king
Member
Why go hunting when someone else will do it for you? That's just humans' reasoning kicking in allowing us to more effectively manage our time
Subpar Spatula
Banned
It really is semantics because you don't understand the evolution of homo sapiens. Let's start from ancient times. They used ambush tactics or used our cursorial advantage to catch prey. Fast forward a few millenium, we know how single individuals shooting a bow to kill an animal and share the meat with their group. Fast forward some more and you have individuals with nets in boats catching many fish to feed their group and sell that food. Fast forward even more you now have automated systems of growth, killing, and distribution to regions of the world. At what point did we stop becoming hunters? The idea of "hunting" is quite blurred and changed over time. Trading goods or being more efficient to accommodate a larger civilization doesn't mean we're not hunters.
Your argument is, "you're only a hunter if you fight it with a knife and not a gun!" which just leads to no true huntsman.
The average person is not a hunter due to the lack of necessity, and likely will never need to be one again.
Your semantics argument is just weird.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Do you care about climate change?
Well, I was.
This is about necessity, not some weird justification of why we're all still hunters if you think about it enough.
I am the exception, yes. But given that before we had super markets most families regularly engaged in hunting I'd argue that the average person would go right back out into the woods for their meat.
We could see how long it takes whitetail deer to join bison on the endangered species list. Sounds like fun.
No, it's simply a realistic viewpoint. Everything dies. The cow that goes into a hamburger was literally cultivated pre-conception to wind up in that hamburger, so I don't see how there is some perversion of it's life when it's brains are bashed as the first big transitional step in that final destination.
Feel free to ignore. I'm a geologist with an extensive professional and recreational background in environmental science and a good bit of time through university doing climate change research. Lot of ways to twist and spin a lot of different data sets, and most eco-docs do just that to fit their agenda. Hell, I generally like Michael Pollen's work and even he is clearly spinning a bit of an agenda.
I mean, cannibalism has been a real thing dude. It all depends on the motivation. Like, I haven't eaten a bear in a really log time but if there wasn't any pig, cow, deer, duck, other game bird, chicken, turkey, rabbit, squirrel, dog, rat, or cat around I'ma eat me some bear.
So push comes to shove people will eat people. Big deal. The scenarios were survival pressures instigate it are exceedingly rare to the point where that situation determines the morality of their actions.
The day a pig says "dude, could you not blow my brains out with that .45 so you can cut me up, cure my belly, and smoke the rest of me" I'll start to put his/her feelings on a more equal footing. Until then it's a non-cognitive animal only barely more intelligent than the plants you're suggesting we focus our predatory nature on.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
You responded to my statement which clearly wasn't about necessity.
So that's 100% on you.
I honestly, I know a lot more "aggressive meat eaters" than aggressive vegetarians. Both my sister and my gf are vegetarians, both of them never try to convince other people to become vegetarians as well (because they frankly don't give a shit), but you won't believe how often I've heard people say "Come on, eat something REAL" to them. For some reason people complain all the time about aggressive vegetarians, but they somehow think it's okay and super fun to pressure vegetarians into eating meat all the damn time. Nope, guess what, that behaviour is no less obnoxious.
cpp_is_king
Member
Not every animal is a hunter either. Children and many females often leave the hunting to the male, because they are more effective at it. Humans have just scaled this tonthe masses due to our superior intellect and communication skills
Of course they would. They're not going to have to do that though, likely ever.
No, I stick by my last point. We should leave this one here.
You're one of the most consistent trolls on neo-gaf. It's really quite impressive, the stamina of it.
It /is/ about necessity though.
The average person is not a part of, nor ever will be, the gathering of animals produce because it's not necessary.
Then, when you look at many western cultures and see how it's not even necessary to farm the meat any more because enough alternatives exist, we see the necessity drop even further.
This isn't difficult, dude, many people don't need to eat meat any more. They don't need to hunt. Telling me over and over again that they're hunters still doesn't change this fact.
R10Neymarfan
Member
Because if you're gonna take an innocent life or two you mine as well bear the burden of doing it or if not then don't simply eat meat. Go plant based that are tons of alternatives that taste and feel like the real thing with lives being taken. In fact doing so would better your health. Plus it's easier to grow, shop and cook plants then meat. Tons of varied recipes too
Wickerbasket
Member
I care, but not enough stop eating meat. Not as if it would make a difference anyway.
Kind of like how I care about the inhuman conditions used to make my smart phone/electronics, but not enough to stop buying them.
I have varying levels of care about things, and things I turn a blind eye to because they benefit me. Most people are like that.
Mysterious
Banned
People are assholes and snowflakes for eating meat? Wat
cpp_is_king
Member
There's the morality argument, which I don't buy. I'm more interested in eating meat than i am about the life of the animal I'm eating. I'm sorry if you find that offensive, but it's a position shared by approximately 95% of the world's population
Then you have way more faith in our societal stability than I do.
Raven117
Member
A refreshingly honest post.
You'll pry duck from my cold dead hands so veganism is pretty much out of the question.
There's one thing I like about most vegan I interacted with was that they actually had an interest in how their food was made.
Can't knock that.
I still want to see the whole process, if animals are mistreated that won't stop me eating meat.
That's just going to stop me from eating meat from that place.
Mistreated animals are also way worse taste so I don't know why people have a problem with that.
Also I have no problem with people telling me I eat too much meat, I could do without so much tbh.
I'm just never stopping eating meat, that's never happening. Not even a point in trying.
There's one thing I like about most vegan I interacted with was that they actually had an interest in how their food was made.
Can't knock that.
I still want to see the whole process, if animals are mistreated that won't stop me eating meat.
That's just going to stop me from eating meat from that place.
Mistreated animals are also way worse taste so I don't know why people have a problem with that.
Also I have no problem with people telling me I eat too much meat, I could do without so much tbh.
I'm just never stopping eating meat, that's never happening. Not even a point in trying.
ClosingADoor
Member
We don't have to all become vegan to care about that. Just find some way to have people not eat meat every day will already have a major impact. I eat meat in my diner about two times a week now. I won't totally stop eating it, but I used to almost daily.
Also, the kind of meat matters a lot. Having people switch from eating cow a lot to more chicken will do a lot of good for example.
if you think it was hunting that produced civilization and not the widespread production of grains and storage organs, you should probably spend about 2 and a half minutes doing research or w/e
This hunter argument is fucking stupid. It doesn't matter.
Do humans have to eat meat? No.
Are we better off health wise if we don't? yes.
Are we better off eviroment wise if we don't? yes.
Are we better off morality wise if we don't? yes.
I think the answer is clear. If you want to eat meat the only reason you should is because it tastes good. That decision is up to you.
Do humans have to eat meat? No.
Are we better off health wise if we don't? yes.
Are we better off eviroment wise if we don't? yes.
Are we better off morality wise if we don't? yes.
I think the answer is clear. If you want to eat meat the only reason you should is because it tastes good. That decision is up to you.
Ahhh the ol' vote argument.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
I have met plenty of vegans, all of them were college educated, well off and with parents who were well off as well. Those are the ones writing blogs, sharing links and images on social media, and buying fancy stuff in shops. Maybe it's different where you live, but veganism always comes across as a bootstraps, almost religious ideology. Do this and you'll be healthier, more moral, wealthier, etc. Don't and you shall be damned.
I keep hearing rice and beans are cheap, and stuff like that. A kid cannot grow on rice and beans.
Majukun
Member
well,actually both did
the need to collaborate with other people to hunt made people group together
the access to agriculture techniques and the ability to stop going around gathering shit from bushes made those group able to stay in a single place and stop worrying about where to find food,which gave more time to rise a civilization.
Sorry, I won't ever be okay with that comparison. It's a non starter. Black suffering doesn't need to be used in that context . There are vegans of color and there are Black vegans as well and aren't like the few militant vegans I've seen most of them being white.
Dogs being killed by police garners more attention and sympathy than black people being killed, so it's 2017 and the dehumanization is there. If a vegan cannot have the courtesy to respect Black history, then they can stay away from me. And the biggest irony is, Black communities have food deserts so, it takes on a more sinister meaning because they don't have access to food but lynching imagery is called activism.
Like I said, it's a small number of vegans who do that, I just find the comparison is unacceptable.
We're not glowing orbs of energy nor are we robots but humans made out of all the squishy parts other organisms eat. The only game we have on other predators is that we... (some of us) know how to make and use tools to defend ourselves. We are still very much part of the food chain. We're just good at fighting off most of out predators. Though even if we fend off that bear, eventually we're going to die, be chomped up by insects, pooped out into organic matter to be eaten by trees, etc and thus the cycle of life continues.
The only argument I can get behind is having strong regulations to protect out environment and make sure that things don't get out of hand (which they have no doubt).
RipperGrim
Member
Just like people complaining about feminists I feel vegans aren't even close to being as preachy as people make them out to be, in fact I've seen the opposite where someone tells them how delicious a burger is.
I wish I had the motivation and discipline to be a vegan, it really is the way we should be living if we want the world to last to the next century without becoming a shit hole.
I wish I had the motivation and discipline to be a vegan, it really is the way we should be living if we want the world to last to the next century without becoming a shit hole.
Again: what about the vegans you met that you didn't know about due to the fact they weren't writing blogs or preaching the good word?
And a vegan diet is not just rice and beans. Poor people can be vegan. Trust me, I've been poor and vegan (and healthy) for quite a few years out of my lifetime.
Well, this is all really besides the point when we realise the necessity to hunt has long been removed from the average person.
It's farming, not hunting, that produces the most food.
And while you can argue about food chain there, you know very well the point I was (am) trying to make.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
A lot of optional things aren't necessary. You don't have to drive a car. You don't need to travel. You don't need to drink alcohol. You don't need to smoke weed. You don't need to play video games. You don't need to watch TV. The necessary argument never stands because a lot of things in life aren't necessary but people still do them. Why? Because it brings them joy. As long as the ecosystem isn't shattered to a million bits, then it's all good.
Well, yeah, we're not hunter-gathers as in foragers anymore but we still as a civilization hunt. That portion just is much smaller than what it used to be.
My vegan friend is on FB right now saying definitively that Jesus did not fish and probably did not eat meat. He's not a religious scholar and all he really knows about Christianity is based off googling. So yes I understand the "vegans are ridiculous" argument.
At the same time check the vegan thread on NeoGAF to find stories about vegan's friends/families/co-workers shitting on them for their views.
Per the article though, the idea that some people would go vegetarian/vegan if it wasn't for those "pushy plant eaters" is funny as hell. You were really considering changing your diet so drastically but then someone was preachy so you just lost interest? Sounds like a flaky person.
At the same time check the vegan thread on NeoGAF to find stories about vegan's friends/families/co-workers shitting on them for their views.
Per the article though, the idea that some people would go vegetarian/vegan if it wasn't for those "pushy plant eaters" is funny as hell. You were really considering changing your diet so drastically but then someone was preachy so you just lost interest? Sounds like a flaky person.
Lonewulfeus
Member
goldenpp72
Member
if only they didn't have conviction that animals suffer needlessly while humans would be healthier without
Humans are designed to eat meat along with other things, while I respect a persons decision to veer away from it, they have no right to try and interfere with my life. I couldn't care less about their opinion of what i'm eating. Just like an overweight person who is eating cake shouldn't have someone jump down their throat because of the calorie content, get over it. I'm not ignorant to the fact i'm eating animals, I simply choose to do it, vegans often act like they have some sort of revelation to display, it's like religious cultist.
Fact of the matter is, if you're at my table eating a vegan meal, I won't comment on it outside of asking if you enjoy it, I respect most decisions people make until they attempt to interfere with mine. You won't enlighten me or change my mind on that subject.
Problem is the ecosystem is getting shattered HARD by factory farming. And those other things aren't necessary but they don't involve killing sentient beings.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Then better methods are needed but telling people to just drop it because it's not necessary isn't a sound argument.
It's remarkable how evolutionary biology often gets brought up in topics about veganism and how often it gets completely misapplied (by both sides of the argument).
This is just comically wrong. What a load of horseshit.
This is just comically wrong. What a load of horseshit.
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