Support NeoGAF

[NLB2]

The use of radio is perhaps one of the worse ways to intentionally try to signal other intelligent species. Radio is subject to a wide variety of distortions and easily gets lost in the noise of all of the other radio signals produced by everything else in the known universe. The thought that a species would use radio is again based on the firm, yet stupid, assumption that an intelligent species would follow our evolutionary path. If I'm an insectoid that communicated through scent or pheremones.

And humans don't communicate with each other by frequencies of light undetectable to the eye. What happens is we digitalize the ways in which we communicate and send them via radio were they are reproduced in forms sensible to a human being. Which is exactly the way advanced insects would communicate over long distances. The reason radio is used is because it is the fastest way to communicate (perhaps spin can allow you to communicate instantaneously but if aliens are communicating this way, it would be undetectable to anyone outside of the system so if aliens were trying to prodcast there existence they would use light). Oh, and if you say "smell can't be produced artificially" you'd be wrong.

 

[teiresias]

Wow. You are insane...

Ummm, Mana didn't come up with the conspiracy theory.

 

[FoneBone]

Ummm, Mana didn't come up with the conspiracy theory.

Never said he did. The fact that he (or anyone) seems willing to believe this stuff scares me, though.

 

[NLB2]

OMG, and the catholic lobbying body that was pushing for it in a time of anticommunist fervor is all a lie!

That was just part of the conspiracy. God.

 

[Phoenix]

Yea, they used a dentist appointment as a cover story.

...

I really don't want to bust out laughing, but come on lets be realistic. If a species travels several hundred light years to Earth and decides to abduct some humans, they don't need our permission for shit. Any species that can make the journey to earth over distance and still be alive when they arrive is far far more than a match for anything we have to offer as a defense and that too comes from basic physics. The energy required to do the journey is incredible - especially if you're going to keep someone/something alive and drift that far (best case scenario from our point of view). If something travels here at speed - meaning a FTL trip through a wormhole, space fold, etc. the amount of energy they are able to harness is beyond a scale that we even understand (that being the Plank energy). A species at this level is well beyond us and they could literally incerate this world if they used any weapons that employed this technology.

We stand absolutely no chance whatsoever against an aggressive species that has the ability to harness that much energy as that means that they already understand things that are 'solid theories' for us such as 'energy shields' (more science fact than fiction), plasma weapons, subatomic colliders, nanomachines, etc.

They would be able to destroy us before we could even get the space shuttle into launch position.... and all it would be able to do is let the astronauts go out and give the aliens a high-five or shoot whatever ineffective weaponry we desired at them. It would be a dark day if earth was invaded by an alien species. Forget all the resistence shit from V and Independence Day. They would give OWNED an entirely new meaning..... and I for one, welcome our new alien overlords

 

[teiresias]

really don't want to bust out laughing, but come on lets be realistic. If a species travels several hundred light years to Earth and decides to abduct some humans, they don't need our permission for shit.

There's an intragalactic UN-like organization that keeps species like that bay. There's not really anything that keeps us from completely taking over Cuba aside from politics.

P.S. - Just providing reasoning that would explain their willingness to "talk" to the US government. Not saying I believe it. Regardless of power, if there is a structure of different species with similar technology than politics enter into the equation. Politics doesn't disappear the minute science reaches a certain level of sophistication.

 

[Phoenix]

And humans don't communicate with each other by frequencies of light undetectable to the eye. What happens is we digitalize the ways in which we communicate and send them via radio were they are reproduced in forms sensible to a human being. Which is exactly the way advanced insects would communicate over long distances. The reason radio is used is because it is the fastest way to communicate (perhaps spin can allow you to communicate instantaneously but if aliens are communicating this way, it would be undetectable to anyone outside of the system so if aliens were trying to prodcast there existence they would use light). Oh, and if you say "smell can't be produced artificially" you'd be wrong.

No I wouldn't say that, and you shouldn't prejudice your argument by assuming what someone would say. Anyways, the radio spectrum is gi-normous and we can only search a very small and specific bandwidth. Not lets say that you are right and they would still be using radio regardless. My cell phone running triband is on 900 MHz, 1800 MHz,
900 MHz and my wireless network is on 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz. Do we check these bands? NO! Why not? Because we would be broadcasting out so much ambient planetary noise in these spectrums that we wouldn't hear anything. We are currently looking at frequencies around 1420.40575 MHz. So if my alien species is using TMobile - nah you wouldn't hear them either, both because my terrestrial signals are stronger and will drown them out, and because we're dialed into the wrong station because we are assuming that a species will communicate with us at this freq because it is stable across space.

 

[AssMan]

I really don't want to bust out laughing, but come on lets be realistic. If a species travels several hundred light years to Earth and decides to abduct some humans, they don't need our permission for shit. Any species that can make the journey to earth over distance and still be alive when they arrive is far far more than a match for anything we have to offer as a defense and that too comes from basic physics.

OMG!!!11 FRIEZA IS COMING TO EARTH TO DESTROY US ALL, BECAUSE OF GOKU, THAT MONKEY!!11

 

[Phoenix]

There's an intragalactic UN-like organization that keeps species like that bay. There's not really anything that keeps us from completely taking over Cuba aside from politics.

P.S. - Just providing reasoning that would explain their willingness to "talk" to the US government. Not saying I believe it. Regardless of power, if there is a structure of different species with similar technology than politics enter into the equation. Politics doesn't disappear the minute science reaches a certain level of sophistication.

You bring up an interesting point, that they would want to negotiate with each other. In the UN we talk about protecting and studying species as well... but we never sit and chat with those species to see if they would mind wearing trackers, being empregnated by alien sexbots, or generating evidence for the Kobe trial with their anal probes.

It seems so unlikely (though I will admit, not impossible) that they would say "yes you can abduct and kill as many as you want..... so long as they say its okay"

 

[yoshifumi]

it would be funny though if some advanced race made it all the way to earth and all they brought to fight us was a bunch of bricks and baseball bats or something.

 

[NLB2]

You bring up an interesting point, that they would want to negotiate with each other. In the UN we talk about protecting and studying species as well... but we never sit and chat with those species to see if they would mind wearing trackers, being empregnated by alien sexbots, or generating evidence for the Kobe trial with their anal probes.

It seems so unlikely (though I will admit, not impossible) that they would say "yes you can abduct and kill as many as you want..... so long as they say its okay"

First of all, alien UN thingy isn't the same exact thing as Earth UN. Second of all, they aren't abducting humans merely for anal probes, they Greys need skin grafts or something like that to stay alive. IDK.

 

[Slo]

Those links are a very intrigueing bit of fiction, I'd love to read more.

 

[Phoenix]

First of all, alien UN thingy isn't the same exact thing as Earth UN. Second of all, they aren't abducting humans merely for anal probes, they Greys need skin grafts or something like that to stay alive. IDK.

And they flew all the way to Earth to get skin? Hell I'll buy them a box of Integra Dermal (better than a Xenograft - process where you take skin from one species for use on another. Humans do this already) if they'll just take me for a ride around the solar system and not wipe my mind so I can remember the experience.

 

[teiresias]

You bring up an interesting point, that they would want to negotiate with each other. In the UN we talk about protecting and studying species as well... but we never sit and chat with those species to see if they would mind wearing trackers, being empregnated by alien sexbots, or generating evidence for the Kobe trial with their anal probes.

It seems so unlikely (though I will admit, not impossible) that they would say "yes you can abduct and kill as many as you want..... so long as they say its okay"

In the UN they talk about protecting and studying species that aren't at the same level of sentience (sp?) that we, as humans, and these advanced creatures would be. The dividing line being that we will be capable of harnessing the same level of energy and science given the time to investigate and explore, but the creatures you are using as analogies will never develop engineering or science (of course, the various primates are debateable).

I'm saying the "Alien UN" is preventing forcing the evil Aliens to talk to the government just like the Earth UN wouldn't allow the US to fly into some African country full of roaming, tribal click-people and use them, unknowingly in medical experiments.

 

[MetatronM]

There's a whole bunch more to it than that, but that's the basics of the Eisenhower situation. Every President up to Kennedy knew the details. After Kennedy was killed it was made "need to know" information. Bush 1.0 knows as he was the head of the CIA and thus a member of MJ-12, and Nixon knew. But after that the President is not told anything unless he needs to know. Some think Clinton knows something due to a close call in the mid-90's.

Which of course leads to the question of why do you know while the President is on a "need to know" basis?

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Which of course leads to the question of why do you know while the President is on a "need to know" basis?

Plausible deniabality - Supposedly there are several situations that are made without the President's knowledge so if they blow up in his face he can claim he had no knowledge of the event and would not have santioned this event.

 

[NLB2]

And they flew all the way to Earth to get skin? Hell I'll buy them a box of Integra Dermal (better than a Xenograft - process where you take skin from one species for use on another. Humans do this already) if they'll just take me for a ride around the solar system and not wipe my mind so I can remember the experience.

*shrugs
Just repeating some bs i read.

 

[SlickWilly223]

Plausible deniabality - Supposedly there are several situations that are made without the President's knowledge so if they blow up in his face he can claim he had no knowledge of the event and would not have santioned this event.

Hey Plausible Deniability -- that was the same reason that the White House Executive gave to the President in Independence Day. Good quote.

A better quote from that movie is:

"Or as the Good Reverend would say.... Why we are on this particular mission we may never know, but I do know that here today the Black Nights will emerge victorious once again. Amen, brother."

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

OMG, and the catholic lobbying body that was pushing for it in a time of anticommunist fervor is all a lie!

Well if the Greys created the Catholic religion, then it was still them by proxy

 

[maharg]

I think the idea that it would be easier to do their experiments if humans at large don't know they're there is a much more plausible explanation for negotiations with national governments.

 

[Dilbert]

The use of radio is perhaps one of the worse ways to intentionally try to signal other intelligent species. Radio is subject to a wide variety of distortions and easily gets lost in the noise of all of the other radio signals produced by everything else in the known universe.

...

Any species that WANTS to be found isn't going to rely on a medium [radio] that is so easily corrupted, is slow, and loses energy over distance. Assuming that they want to talk to folks, the best thing for them to do is send out concentrated beams of energy (likely light or similar). This will travel faster across the void, arrive faster, and has enough bandwidth to account for any warping of the signal in transit.

Actually, a couple of things:

1) Radio waves and light are exactly the same thing: electromagnetic radiation. They travel at the same speed.

2) EM radiation in a true vacuum would not attenuate (lose signal), but invariably ANY signal runs into interference of some kind and loses energy. Radio waves, having a longer wavelength, tend to attenuate LESS than higher-frequency EM (like visible light), which is why radio signals are ideal for traveling long distances...and why there is so much background noise in the radio spectrum.

3) Even a tightly collimated beam like a laser will spread out when transmitted over a large distance.

4) If you want to be found, wouldn't you PREFER to transmit in all directions? The problem with "aiming" a message is that unless you have a discrete target in mind already, you reduce the chance that someone at an arbitrary distance will pick up the signal.

 

[XMonkey]

Hmmmm...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3621608.stm

 

[Smiles and Cries]

cover up

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Hey Plausible Deniability -- that was the same reason that the White House Executive gave to the President in Independence Day. Good quote.

One could also say that the current real president has used it as well in the search for WMD. He made a decision based on what he was given and the fact that he was wrong doesn't fall back on him falls back on the policy makers.

 

[Hitokage]

Actually, a couple of things:

1) Radio waves and light are exactly the same thing: electromagnetic radiation. They travel at the same speed.

2) EM radiation in a true vacuum would not attenuate (lose signal), but invariably ANY signal runs into interference of some kind and loses energy. Radio waves, having a longer wavelength, tend to attenuate LESS than higher-frequency EM (like visible light), which is why radio signals are ideal for traveling long distances...and why there is so much background noise in the radio spectrum.

3) Even a tightly collimated beam like a laser will spread out when transmitted over a large distance.

4) If you want to be found, wouldn't you PREFER to transmit in all directions? The problem with "aiming" a message is that unless you have a discrete target in mind already, you reduce the chance that someone at an arbitrary distance will pick up the signal.

Bah, next you'll be telling us electromagnetic radiation can only be transmitted in discrete packets! MADNESS!

BTW, I thought redshifting gave us the background radiation in the radio band. *shrug*

 

[Slo]

Wait, one of those links claims that the Reptilian race is the ONLY known enemy of the dreaded Greys, and another claims that the Greys are some sort of subserviant subspecies of the Reptilian race? So which is it?

I love reading this sci-fi stuff.

 

[RobotChant]

Plausible deniabality - Supposedly there are several situations that are made without the President's knowledge so if they blow up in his face he can claim he had no knowledge of the event and would not have santioned this event.

Iran Contra.


I want to drink whatever these people are drinking... actually, that's probably not such a good idea.

 

[Phoenix]

Actually, a couple of things:

1) Radio waves and light are exactly the same thing: electromagnetic radiation. They travel at the same speed.

You're right they all travel at the same speed.

2) EM radiation in a true vacuum would not attenuate (lose signal), but invariably ANY signal runs into interference of some kind and loses energy. Radio waves, having a longer wavelength, tend to attenuate LESS than higher-frequency EM (like visible light), which is why radio signals are ideal for traveling long distances...and why there is so much background noise in the radio spectrum.

Then it should follow that we should not use lasers for our communications as is where we're headed? Though space itself isn't a 'true' void. There's lots of goddies in it that interfere with EM.

3) Even a tightly collimated beam like a laser will spread out when transmitted over a large distance.

Indeed, but if you're pointing it as something specific (like your friends or probes) then that doesn't seem to be an issue.

4) If you want to be found, wouldn't you PREFER to transmit in all directions? The problem with "aiming" a message is that unless you have a discrete target in mind already, you reduce the chance that someone at an arbitrary distance will pick up the signal.

Nah, if I wanted to be found I would point at places likely to hear me. If you're trapped on an island and all you have is a speaker to point at planes and ships that are passing by would you point it randomly out to sea or in the direction where you think people are going to hear it. The only problem with this is that with the distances travelled you have no idea of when someone would hear the signal so you don't know which direction to point. So in that sense I guess it would make sense to broadcast out in all directions is you want to be heard - as nutty as that seems. All it takes is some objects within your path generating frequencies in that band to distort them.

However, it seems (after reading some more about their dish positioning) they expect to find a signal not targetted at us specifically but one that would be the equivalent of stumbling across someones CB frequency. Considering the frequencies that we're listening on and the assumptions that we're making about transmitting on that frequency being unaffected by natural phenom. in the univere - I'll remain with Kaku and call this method the least efficient mechanism for finding intelligent life in the universe.

 

[Phoenix]

Iran Contra.


I want to drink whatever these people are drinking... actually, that's probably not such a good idea.

I don't think that stuff comes in liquid form... I think its something you either have to smoke or inject.

 

[karasu]

If they do find life on other places of the universe, would it debunk all religions?

Why? The bible says NOTHING against life on other planets. It doesn't even menti0on dinosaurs.

 

[RiZ III]

Did Jesus only die for humans?

 

[ourumov]

They are coming to save Acclaim...

 

[sc0la]

Assuming that they want to talk to folks, the best thing for them to do is send out concentrated beams of energy (likely light or similar). This will travel faster across the void, arrive faster, and has enough bandwidth to account for any warping of the signal in transit.

All electro-magnetic radiation travels at the same speed. X-rays, Gamma, "Light," and even radio waves.

EDIT:meh this had already been addressed. What? last reply 6 hours ago? That is what I get for replying to a topic after coming home from work without refreshing the OT forum

 

[fart]

i thought this was about illegal aliens and the poor/minorities.

 

[Chrono]

It would be a dark day if earth was invaded by an alien species. Forget all the resistence shit from V and Independence Day. They would give OWNED an entirely new meaning..... and I for one, welcome our new alien overlords

If they bring their videogame consoles, I'll welcome them too.

 

[RiZ III]

Whatever. Theyre ships would crash and burn. We'd take those alien scum and disect them. Eventually we'd go and blow up theyre planet cause they would be declared a threat to our planet.