Aliens and UFOs

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InverseAgonist said:
That said, I believe we're the only intelligent life in our light-cone. Although Hanson makes a strong argument that we're just early and will run into intelligence in a billion years or so.
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But it's possible they've run into us already. Not that I believe "contact" will ever happen, that's more for similarly intelligent species. I would argue if our average IQ was near 300 and we weren't the war apes 2.0 we are it might have happened.
 
This came out yesterday, I thought it was fairly interesting. It sort of gets at some of the more emotional motivations behind the subject, both on the believers and skeptics side.

 
Romulus said:
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These government officials need to stop with the dick teasing and show us this hard evidence. Apparently, the stuff released to the public so far is the least convincing stuff. Show me the most convincing evidence. Just show us all off it, FFS. Stop the blue ball campaign!
 
IDKFA said:
These government officials need to stop with the dick teasing and show us this hard evidence. Apparently, the stuff released to the public so far is the least convincing stuff. Show me the most convincing evidence. Just show us all off it, FFS. Stop the blue ball campaign!
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And it's not just this government official saying there was footage shown that they won't allow the public to see. There are several. I just think they're afraid that a certain % of working-class citizens will be freaked out and it could affect the economy even more. They need the entire 100% working and leave open the "meh probably nothing" option to give people an out to believe whatever makes them the most comfortable.
 
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Romulus said:
And it's not just this government official saying there was footage shown that they won't allow the public to see. There are several. I just think they're afraid that a certain % of working-class citizens will be freaked out and it could affect the economy even more. They need the entire 100% working and leave open the "meh probably nothing" option to give people an out to believe whatever makes them the most comfortable.
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If this was the 1950s, then yeah I'd agree, people would freak out and lose their shit. But in 2022? I'm not so sure. Most people already believe there is life outside our solar system. Confirming it wouldn't be a big deal to most people. Religious people might find it difficult to accept, but I think the vast majority would be cool with it.
 
Romulus said:
But it's possible they've run into us already. Not that I believe "contact" will ever happen, that's more for similarly intelligent species. I would argue if our average IQ was near 300 and we weren't the war apes 2.0 we are it might have happened.
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Depends on what kind of "contact" you mean. When we say "contact" we imagine the world being made aware all at once of these benevolent/neutral/aggressive/etc beings though that form should simply be referred to as disclosure. As I grow older "contact" as we think of it honestly sounds more and more like a tv show/movie concept than what a reality scenario could be.

If extraterrestrials have come then I think it's likely there have been individuals that have been met with but at the same time there's no need for a mass event to say "we're here". As stated in Men In Black, "a person is smart but people are dumb, panicky and dangerous" as we see day in and day out. Hell, would you go into the cages to mingle with all the animals at the zoo? Some may be approachable, some may not.

Also, I do think we're missing an idea that should they exist do they think/rationalize like us? If they are alien, would their way of thinking be alien as well?
 
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IDKFA said:
If this was the 1950s, then yeah I'd agree, people would freak out and lose their shit. But in 2022? I'm not so sure. Most people already believe there is life outside our solar system. Confirming it wouldn't be a big deal to most people. Religious people might find it difficult to accept, but I think the vast majority would be cool with it.
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I feel like people say things like "yeah there's probably life out there." But when it comes to actually acknowledge the fact that something is visiting here and we have no control over it? That's completely different IMO. It's more a quick opinion piece now that can be laughed at. But even then I don't think it would be some mass freak-out, but even a small percentage could affect the economy. Things like increasing levels of apathy in the workplace, which we don't need at all right now. I feel society is holding on by a string and places like the midwest are still very religious and a massive contributor to the country in all regards, factories, farming, the list goes on.
 
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Wheeljack539 said:
Depends on what kind of "contact" you mean. When we say "contact" we imagine the world being made aware all at once of these benevolent/neutral/aggressive/etc beings though that form should simply be referred to as disclosure. As I grow older "contact" as we think of it honestly sounds more and more like a tv show/movie concept than what a reality scenario could be.

If extraterrestrials have come then I think it's likely there have been individuals that have been met with but at the same time there's no need for a mass event to say "we're here". As stated in Men In Black, "a person is smart but people are dumb, panicky and dangerous" as we see day in and day out. Hell, would you go into the cages to mingle with all the animals at the zoo? Some may be approachable, some may not.

Also, I do think we're missing an idea that should they exist do they think/rationalize like us? If they are alien, would their way of thinking be alien as well?
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Exactly what's in it for them? If they're able to travel here from another solar system or galaxy lol, then what do we really have to offer that? We probably look ridiculously primitive and helpless, more than any ancient human would look to us now. I mean we're already seeing that something close to immortality is achievable for our species through our primitive science, and we're barely out of our caves in terms of progression. They've probably been immortal for millions of years and can travel the universe at ease and are literally lightyears ahead of us in every regard to the point that "contact" makes zero sense.
 
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IDKFA said:
If this was the 1950s, then yeah I'd agree, people would freak out and lose their shit. But in 2022? I'm not so sure. Most people already believe there is life outside our solar system. Confirming it wouldn't be a big deal to most people. Religious people might find it difficult to accept, but I think the vast majority would be cool with it.
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People would be terrified. Concrete proof is different than believing and musing. It's like hearing about a great white and encountering a great white, it's a different thing. Walking around alone in nature and seeing something in the distance in the air would suddenly become a horror event for many.
 
Anyone see the new theories of everything podcast with Eric Weinstein and Mick West?

I'm okay with Mick, but Weinstein really pushed him on his policing/bullying behavior and it was a good listen.

Edit: hey, once I posted I just had every post since the 5th appear like it was new! Looks like someone posted the cast on friday.
 
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Crayon said:
Anyone see the new theories of everything podcast with Eric Weinstein and Mick West?

I'm okay with Mick, but Weinstein really pushed him on his policing/bullying behavior and it was a good listen.

Edit: hey, once I posted I just had every post since the 5th appear like it was new! Looks like someone posted the cast on friday.
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I haven't watched it yet, but I hope as evidence mounds people like Mick will remain an outlet for objectivity and people who don't want to believe regardless of the evidence. I think there needs to be a comfort zone people can go and be non believers if thats what they choose. Ignorance is bliss but can also preserve our sanity. Thats assuming we continue on this path.
 
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Romulus said:
I haven't watched it yet, but I hope as evidence mounds people like Mick will remain an outlet for objectivity and people who don't want to believe regardless of the evidence. I think there needs to be a comfort zone people can go and be non believers if thats what they choose. Ignorance is bliss but can also preserve our sanity. Thats assuming we continue on this path.
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I'm guessing that Mick didn't foresee the situation we are in now back when he started his site. I can't remember what it was called. If and when that evidence mounts, I expect him to pretend like he was cool with it all along, but change his mind nonetheless. A whole lot of people would go that way with him. The most stubborn ones would have a hard time.
 
Edit: eh this isn't very respectful.

I really find West and his approach distasteful. Disingenuous.
 
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I think just the fact that the universe is so damn big and we are pretty much just a dust in all this, is enough evidence that it HAS to exist life out of Earth. Sure, life might be rare enough to not happen twice in the same solar system very often, but I'm sure, in all of the universe extension, we were not the only ones who hit the jackpot of life.

Not sure how advanced they might be, and how similar they are to us both physically and in behavior. Not even sure if such cases as the ones presented in the 1st page are indeed about aliens (they're intriguing cases though). But that there's more life out there, that's for sure.
 
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Kssio_Aug said:
I think just the fact that the universe is so damn big and we are pretty much just a dust in all this, is enough evidence that it HAS to exist life out of Earth. Sure, life might be rare enough to not happen twice in the same solar system very often, but I'm sure, in all of the universe extension, we were not the only ones who hit the jackpot of life.

Not sure how advanced they might be, and how similar they are to us both physically and in behavior. Not even sure if such cases as the ones presented in the 1st page are indeed about aliens (they're intriguing cases though). But that there's more life out there, that's for sure.
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Probably extremely rare. But lets say we found out that intelligent life forms only once every millionth solar system. Even then that would mean there are millions of species out there.
 
This is very interesting video. Don't know if anyone here has seen it or posted already(sorry if that's the case). She posts what appears to be an actual Close Encounter of the Third Kind(and possibly 1st kind).

This is video of a Hawaiian observatory that looks like it gets visited by aliens. It's creepy. Also, I say possibly a "first kind" encounter as the far left observatory looks like something beams into it because of
the overwhelming bright light that appears in it(like an alien beaming in).



Also, what she claims are the alien entities(light beings) caught in that same footage from different higher camera:

 
ultrazilla said:
This is very interesting video. Don't know if anyone here has seen it or posted already(sorry if that's the case). She posts what appears to be an actual Close Encounter of the Third Kind(and possibly 1st kind).

This is video of a Hawaiian observatory that looks like it gets visited by aliens. It's creepy. Also, I say possibly a "first kind" encounter as the far left observatory looks like something beams into it because of
the overwhelming bright light that appears in it(like an alien beaming in).



Also, what she claims are the alien entities(light beings) caught in that same footage from different higher camera:

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None of that makes any sense to me. Her explanation is simply convoluted garbage and she keeps repeating herself over and over. Ok lights? I see those, but it doesn't mean anything.
 
Kssio_Aug said:
I think just the fact that the universe is so damn big and we are pretty much just a dust in all this, is enough evidence that it HAS to exist life out of Earth. Sure, life might be rare enough to not happen twice in the same solar system very often, but I'm sure, in all of the universe extension, we were not the only ones who hit the jackpot of life.

Not sure how advanced they might be, and how similar they are to us both physically and in behavior. Not even sure if such cases as the ones presented in the 1st page are indeed about aliens (they're intriguing cases though). But that there's more life out there, that's for sure.
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The only way that we are the only ones is that the formation of life or intelligence was truly a random event. In that case, it would take many universes to end up with us, and then there's this anthropic argument and yada yada multiverse yada yada determinism. I think there's an ideological appeal to some people in that but it doesn't predict or explain anything. Not to mentino it's no fun lol.
 
It's hilarious how dismissive we are as a species. We can't even figure out how many things on Earth work yet we're infinitely knowledgable about the universe and its mysteries? lol

 
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Crayon said:
The only way that we are the only ones is that the formation of life or intelligence was truly a random event. In that case, it would take many universes to end up with us, and then there's this anthropic argument and yada yada multiverse yada yada determinism. I think there's an ideological appeal to some people in that but it doesn't predict or explain anything. Not to mentino it's no fun lol.
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The creation of life is most likely random but it doesn't make any sense that it would be so random that it only happened here. There are countless worlds out there. To say life only happened here wouldn't be random. It'd be intelligent design.
 
OmegaSupreme said:
The creation of life is most likely random but it doesn't make any sense that it would be so random that it only happened here. There are countless worlds out there. To say life only happened here wouldn't be random. It'd be intelligent design.
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It's true that it starts going that way, but I don't see it going all the way to intelligent design. It could be the the jump to eukaryotic life happens when good conditions arise by some mechanism we haven't discovered yet. You could call that like you said: not THAT random and there should be plenty of planets even if there are super specific conditions for it to happen.

I'm talking about the type of random that would be implied by us being all alone. In that case, life or at least anything more advanced than bacteria would have to be an unvelievably rare stroke of luck. Seems unlikely, no pun intended.
 
IDKFA said:
These government officials need to stop with the dick teasing and show us this hard evidence. Apparently, the stuff released to the public so far is the least convincing stuff. Show me the most convincing evidence. Just show us all off it, FFS. Stop the blue ball campaign!
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Because none of it is truly convincing. None. It's just ambiguous garbage.
 
Chronicle said:
Because none of it is truly convincing. None. It's just ambiguous garbage.
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It's extremely convincing if you look at the sheer volume of similar encounters since before the 1500s. No way in hell are that many mass sightings and various military encounters from different nations all bullshit.
 
Chronicle said:
Because none of it is truly convincing. None. It's just ambiguous garbage.
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Apparently, the stuff released to the public so far is the least convincing evidence. The more convincing stuff hasn't been made public and probably won't for a long time.

Which makes sense. The US government and NASA wouldn't be spending time, resources and money looking into this if they only had very shaky and unconvincing evidence.
 
IDKFA said:
Apparently, the stuff released to the public so far is the least convincing evidence. The more convincing stuff hasn't been made public and probably won't for a long time.

Which makes sense. The US government and NASA wouldn't be spending time, resources and money looking into this if they only had very shaky and unconvincing evidence.
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No. It would be a news story/event that would change history by the largest extent imaginable. To think otherwise is utter insanity. It's not a secret. You just want to believe.
 
Chronicle said:
No. It would be a news story/event that would change history by the largest extent imaginable. To think otherwise is utter insanity. It's not a secret. You just want to believe.
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That could be exactly why it's never going to come to light. It would change everything. That's certainly a theory I've seen. Religions would crumble. Everything would change. Do you believe that there is intelligent life out there?
 
Chronicle said:
So where is the evidence?
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This is not a good strategy. He can drown you in evidence. And then all you can do is attempt to refute each claim, which would be extremely time consuming and most likley unproductive, because most of the evidence is of such low quality that there isn't even enough information for any analysis. Or you can claim that all his evidence is of low quality and not worth engaging with and from his point of view it will look like you're weaseling out of the discussion.

Here's an illustration of the problem using Atlantis as an example from a blog post by Scott Alexander:

Suppose you're talking to one of those ancient-Atlantean secrets-of-the-Pyramids people. They give you various pieces of evidence for their latest crazy theory, such as (and all of these are true):

1. The latitude of the Great Pyramid matches the speed of light in a vacuum to five decimal places.
2. Famous prophet Edgar Cayce, who predicted a lot of stuff with uncanny accuracy, said he had seen ancient Atlanteans building the Pyramid in a vision.
3. There are hieroglyphs near the pyramid that look a lot like pictures of helicopters.
4. In his dialogue Critias, Plato relayed a tradition of secret knowledge describing a 9,000-year-old Atlantean civilization.
5. The Egyptian pyramids look a lot like the Mesoamerican pyramids, and the Mesoamerican name for the ancient home of civilization is "Aztlan"
6. There's an underwater road in the Caribbean, whose discovery Edgar Cayce predicted, and which he said was built by Atlantis
7. There are underwater pyramids near the island of Yonaguni.
8. The Sphinx has apparent signs of water erosion, which would mean it has to be more than 10,000 years old.

She asks you, the reasonable and well-educated supporter of the archaeological consensus, to explain these facts. After looking through the literature, you come up with the following:

1. This is just a weird coincidence.
2. Prophecies have so many degrees of freedom that anyone who gets even a little lucky can sound "uncannily accurate", and this is probably just what happened with Cayce, so who cares what he thinks?
3. Lots of things look like helicopters, so whatever.
4. Plato was probably lying, or maybe speaking in metaphors.
5. There are only so many ways to build big stone things, and "pyramid" is a natural form. The "Atlantis/Atzlan" thing is probably a coincidence.
6. Those are probably just rocks in the shape of a road, and Edgar Cayce just got lucky.
7. Those are probably just rocks in the shape of pyramids. But if they do turn out to be real, that area was submerged pretty recently under the consensus understanding of geology, so they might also just be pyramids built by a perfectly normal non-Atlantean civilization.
8. We still don't understand everything about erosion, and there could be some reason why an object less than 10,000 years old could have erosion patterns typical of older objects.

I want you to read those last eight points from the view of an Atlantis believer, and realize that they sound really weaselly. They're all "Yeah, but that's probably a coincidence", and "Look, we don't know exactly why this thing happened, but it's probably not Atlantis, so shut up."
This is the natural pattern you get when challenging a false theory. The theory was built out of random noise and ad hoc misinterpretations, so the refutation will have to be "every one of your multiple superficially plausible points is random noise, or else it's a misinterpretation for a different reason".
If you believe in Atlantis, then each of the seven facts being true provides "context" in which to interpret the last one. Plato said there was an Atlantis that sunk underneath the sea, so of course we should explain the mysterious undersea ruins in that context. The logic is flawless, it's just that you're wrong about everything.
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Razorback said:
This is not a good strategy. He can drown you in evidence. And then all you can do is attempt to refute each claim, which would be extremely time consuming and most likley unproductive, because most of the evidence is of such low quality that there isn't even enough information for any analysis. Or you can claim that all his evidence is of low quality and not worth engaging with and from his point of view it will look like you're weaseling out of the discussion.

Here's an illustration of the problem using Atlantis as an example from a blog post by Scott Alexander:
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Do you believe there is intelligent life out there?
 
Romulus said:
It's hilarious how dismissive we are as a species. We can't even figure out how many things on Earth work yet we're infinitely knowledgable about the universe and its mysteries? lol

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Our (collective) arrogance and sense of self-importance has always been our stumbling block to a better world.
 
Razorback said:
If I had to bet. I would say yes.
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Good answer. If you had answered in the negative I would have either called you a creationist or an empiricist. I certainly can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that intelligent life exists outside of us. However, it seems nigh impossible that it doesn't. We would be special then. We aren't. It is fun to talk about. I've seen a ufo myself. I've seen a ghost too. I stand by both of my sightings that I was in sound mind. I can't prove to you either of them were real though. So round and round we go until a saucer lands in times square. I have a feeling even if it did there would still be doubters lol. I find it odd though that so many of the doubters aren't in the camp you might think. Many famous scientists believe in extraterrestrial life. Hawking for example. In my mind, the only thing to debate is whether or not they've been here or not. I think they have. I can't prove it of course. There's a ton of evidence. A ton. Whether it's good or not would be truly exhausting to research and none of us have that kind of time lol.
 
Romulus said:
False equivalence.
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I don't think it is. Saying Charlie Chaplin must hate Jews because he had the same moustache as Hitler is an example of false equivalence.

The evidence you pointed to for believing UFOs are of alien origin is to me exactly of the same kind and quality as the evidence for the existence of ghosts. Countless personal testimonies. Mass sightings, photo and video evidence, a community of dedicated experts who study the phenomenon etc.

So I believe the burden is on you to explain how the evidence for alien UFOs is in anyway superior to the evidence for ghosts. Of course you didn't answer my question, so I guess maybe you do believe in ghosts. In that case I can't accuse you of being inconsistent in how you interpret evidence.
 
Razorback said:
I don't think it is. Saying Charlie Chaplin must hate Jews because he had the same moustache as Hitler is an example of false equivalence.

The evidence you pointed to for believing UFOs are of alien origin is to me exactly of the same kind and quality as the evidence for the existence of ghosts. Countless personal testimonies. Mass sightings, photo and video evidence, a community of dedicated experts who study the phenomenon etc.

So I believe the burden is on you to explain how the evidence for alien UFOs is in anyway superior to the evidence for ghosts. Of course you didn't answer my question, so I guess maybe you do believe in ghosts. In that case I can't accuse you of being inconsistent in how you interpret evidence.
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I don't quite understand where you're coming from. I don't think anyone here claims to be an expert. How can he prove it? Do you expect him to go digging for the best examples of ufo sightings just to satisfy you? It's out there. The problem is you'd probably have to weed through a lot of crap. I'm sure a quick google search might give you some good ones.
 
Razorback said:
This is not a good strategy. He can drown you in evidence. And then all you can do is attempt to refute each claim, which would be extremely time consuming and most likley unproductive, because most of the evidence is of such low quality that there isn't even enough information for any analysis. Or you can claim that all his evidence is of low quality and not worth engaging with and from his point of view it will look like you're weaseling out of the discussion.

Here's an illustration of the problem using Atlantis as an example from a blog post by Scott Alexander:
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No. There is no evidence and no one is drowning in it. Not one scientist. Not one reputable network or news agency. No one is drowning in evidence. And 'refuting claims' is hardly 'unproductive'. Lol
 
OmegaSupreme said:
That could be exactly why it's never going to come to light. It would change everything. That's certainly a theory I've seen. Religions would crumble. Everything would change. Do you believe that there is intelligent life out there?
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Why would that be a problem? Lol. Youre using that 'society would panic' defense. Nrutal. If there is intelligent life out there the universe is too vast to come into contact. Especially by little miniature ufos.
 
Chronicle said:
No. There is no evidence and no one is drowning in it. Not one scientist. Not one reputable network or news agency. No one is drowning in evidence. And 'refuting claims' is hardly 'unproductive'. Lol
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The vast majority of scientists believe in extraterrestrial life. Find me a reputable one that doesn't. The point to argue is whether or not they've been here.
 
Razorback said:
I don't think it is. Saying Charlie Chaplin must hate Jews because he had the same moustache as Hitler is an example of false equivalence.

The evidence you pointed to for believing UFOs are of alien origin is to me exactly of the same kind and quality as the evidence for the existence of ghosts. Countless personal testimonies. Mass sightings, photo and video evidence, a community of dedicated experts who study the phenomenon etc.

So I believe the burden is on you to explain how the evidence for alien UFOs is in anyway superior to the evidence for ghosts. Of course you didn't answer my question, so I guess maybe you do believe in ghosts. In that case I can't accuse you of being inconsistent in how you interpret evidence.
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It's a false equivalence. Point me in the direction of dozens of different government programs studying ghosts for decades on end. It just doesn't work at all. They've studied telepaths, psychosis, etc. But ghosts are just a ridiculous equivalence.
 
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Chronicle said:
No. It would be a news story/event that would change history by the largest extent imaginable. To think otherwise is utter insanity. It's not a secret. You just want to believe.
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It would be the biggest news story of all time if confirmed, but it hasn't been confirmed yet.

I get it. You're skeptical. Rightly so. However, the Pentagon have had some of their smartest minds looking at the evidence and they have no idea what these things are. NASA is now taking a serious interest in what they are. The Pentagon and NASA wouldn't waste time and money if this could be easily explained as drones or weather balloons etc.

It's not just the US government. Other national governments have taken an interest in these things for decades. Interestingly, in the 1950s Winston Churchill was so concerned about an encounter with a UFO and RAF bomber command that he ordered it covered up for 50 years to prevent a mass panic.

Of course, there are the loons who believe they've been abducted, or multiple false sightings, but there is also a lot of evidence that is harder to explain or has no explanation at all.

Fact is, these things do exist and have been reported, but nobody has a clue what they actually are. Could they be aliens? Sure. Why not? But they could also be something else that hasn't been discovered yet.

Out of interest, what do you think they are?
 
Did it trickle down from this? It's just bizarre how you can hear the overly aggressive skepticism in our culture when we can't even figure out how things work on our own planet. Almost seems plausible. but nah, these dudes are probably just secret UFO crackpipes that got good government jobs.


 
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