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[Alavard]

The main concern I have is patients getting sucked into the whole "pranic healing" system. The site linked in the article has a very prominent storefront and also lists pages upon pages of courses they are holding, with pretty much all but the first course in the list costing hundreds of dollars.

http://www.pranichealingusa.com/

Despite me believing all of this is a bunch of bunk, I think that people (adults at least) can do what they want with their own money, even if they are paying for nothing but a extremely pricey placebo. But it also doesn't seem right to let con artists sucker people into believing in fake medicine. And unless I can find credible evidence to prove otherwise, fake medicine is what pranic healing is.

Thanks for pointing that out, actually. I hadn't thought about patients using this as a gateway to considering 'alternative medicine' (quackery) for actual treatments if they feel it was effective for their pain. That makes my thoughts on this much more complicated.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

I went in to the ER last year with one of the worst persistent headaches I ever had- it lasted 3weeks. I was in agony. The doctor sent me for a CAT scan, it came back negative and told me to take some aspirin and sent me home. I refused to leave without treatment. She offered me opioids, I refused that too. She finally gave me an injection of Toradol which is a really strong, non-addictive pain reliever, essentially a really concentrated shot of Aspirin. It worked.

If I was in severe pain and was offered a holistic treatment I wouldn't stand for it.

Sounds like the treatment the article described, worked. Toradol is not an opioid. The OP hospital would have tried toradol first, from the sounds of it. Morphine or percocet isn't a great first choice.

Wait until we get to the point where you are discouraged from going into the ER for a headache without localizing symptoms.

 

[StarCreator]

I can assure you playing video games is not enough of a distraction to manage pain.

Depends on how severe it is. I had frequent abdominal pain as a kid (probably from terrible eating habits) and would use video games to ignore it, which usually worked. Didn't work as well when I had my wisdom teeth out.

 

[M-PG71C]

I like to see them try to incorporate that for my oncology patients, especially those with pancreatic cancer. I can only imagine. I'm sure that harp and hand waving will reduce their pain, absolutely. </sarcasm>

Here's the bottom line: It's about the damn money. Some way or some how it is always about the damn money. There are ways to help reduce opioid dependence and it is certainly a public health issue that needs to be addressed. However, relying on bullshit "alternative medicine" is not the way to go about it, period. $5 those patients in that statistic offered at the end of the article simply went to another health system/hospital.

 

[Ozigizo]

You there, Bard. Play this kidney stone out of me!

 

[styl3s]

lol using "energy healing" for fucking kidney stones and fractures... wtf.

I probably would of killed someone if they tried to treat my kidney stones with fucking "energy healing" it was the most painful experience in my life.

 

[Aske]

Lies are great when they help people, but we need to study ways we can create these placebonic and hypnotic effects without giving credence to superstitions and quackery. Otherwise, as has already been noted, people will start to believe in lie therapy as if its real medicine, and as if all the utterly false claims its practitioners make are true.

 

[Binabik15]

From a Canadian perspective, our medical clinics and ERs have mostly moved away from opiods as a first line response for non-severe cases. Pharmacies also carry limited supplies of opiods.

In fact, most family doctor offices have signs explicitly stating that they do not prescribe opiods unless the patient has been seeing the doctor for an extended period of time.

That makes it sound like other (normal?) offices are part crack house

Here it's more like "try an Ibu/NSAR of choice" and then maaaybe tilidin plus naloxon (to prevent abuse) or tramadol. Harder opioids are mostly given via dermal application or perfusor and , to minimise addictive effects.

I think I handled Oxycodon pills once so far.

Lies are great when they help people, but we need to study ways we can create these placebonic and hypnotic effects without giving credence to superstitions and quackery. Otherwise, as has already been noted, people will start to believe in lie therapy as if its real medicine, and as if all the utterly false claims its practitioners make are true.

Different strokes for different folks. Some people don't believe in traditional pharmaceuticals heavy medicin, so giving them a sugar pill won't have a placebo effect. If those people can get better QoL from accupuncture or a fucking harp, no harm done IF they still comply with regular treatment. Everything that helps goes, that is basically said by all of my profs. There's not one placebo that works, it's a psychological effect, so it varies from person to person and their attitude and knowledge. But: You have to fight against charlatans and quaks that convince people to ONLY use their pseudo-treatments (that, for some reason, are all very expensive) with every option available.

 

[Already Torn]

It must be miserable working in that ER. Guess they just ship people off to floors quickly so they don't have to deal with them.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Drug users/dealers know to give fake info and these databases aren't sophisticated so this is not terribly effective. Plus the problem can't really be solved after the fact, if there's psychological addiction it doesn't really go away. You need to prescribe less upfront.

It's wrong to do that to deal with some folks addiction at the expense of other people's legitimate physical pain.

"Sorry Bob but Mike's addiction means tough shit for your current pain."

 

[yanipheonu]

You know it's a shame they haven't at least tried forms of meditation or hypnosis in terms of alternatives to drugs. At least I can see how those methods might help with the psychological side of pain.

 

[TsunamiOfSwagger]

Reading that info, I think it sounds like a great plan.
As someone with constant back pain, give me all of your opioid based painkillers. Quickly.

 

[SRG01]

I don't think it needs to be that scientific, or even regulated at all.

People should be able to grow and administer themselves the plant without any oversight from the government or health care industries. It's effects vary so much from strain to strain and person to person that you can't really apply the logic of a 'standardized dose' to it. Just because you can't, doesn't make it an unviable option, either.

I guess my problem with that is that the drug has significant pharmacological effects unlike other self-administered alternative therapies. The flip side is that the adverse side-effect of self-administered cannabis is extremely small, so perhaps there's a balance found in that.

That makes it sound like other (normal?) offices are part crack house

Here it's more like "try an Ibu/NSAR of choice" and then maaaybe tilidin plus naloxon (to prevent abuse) or tramadol. Harder opioids are mostly given via dermal application or perfusor and , to minimise addictive effects.

I think I handled Oxycodon pills once so far.

It's certainly a lot better than years ago when Oxycodon was more prevalent in some parts of the US. Unfortunately, many addicts turned to heroin when prescription Oxycodon was restricted.

Don't get me wrong though, some parts of Canada still suffer from significant opiod abuse. Fentanyl is now quite prevalent on the streets too. Fentanyl of all things.

 

[Dalek]

It's wrong to do that to deal with some folks addiction at the expense of other people's legitimate physical pain.

"Sorry Bob but Mike's addiction means tough shit for your current pain."

My thoughts exactly.

 

[J-Rod]

It's wrong to do that to deal with some folks addiction at the expense of other people's legitimate physical pain.

"Sorry Bob but Mike's addiction means tough shit for your current pain."

Yeah, it kind of worries me. I have had a few procedures done, and I can't imagine dealing with the pain without the opioid pain killers they prescribed me. I understand a lot of people get addicted, but for me, it isn't even a temptation.

 

[QuantumZebra]

lololololololol

I can't laugh hard enough at this.

the picture of the lady doing some sort of spellcasting got me good

if they pulled this when I rolled in with a gunshot wound or something I'd fucking lose it

 

[Somnid]

It's wrong to do that to deal with some folks addiction at the expense of other people's legitimate physical pain.

"Sorry Bob but Mike's addiction means tough shit for your current pain."

It's a psychological condition, there's no one size fits all but we can stand to make the barrier higher. It can be as simple as starting low and working up if it's not effective enough. Though by the same argument restricting an opiate addict's access to these drugs is pretty damn cruel as well.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

An ER Kicks the Habit of Opioids for Pain

Lauren Khalifeh, a nurse and St. Joseph’s holistic coordinator, doing a treatment called pranic healing in the emergency room. The hospital has introduced protocols in the ER that seek to avoid opioids for common types of acute pain.

Jan Lucas, 75, playing a “therapy harp” in the ER. It is one of many alternative approaches that St. Joseph’s uses to ease pain.

Utter lunacy.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I guess my problem with that is that the drug has significant pharmacological effects unlike other self-administered alternative therapies. The flip side is that the adverse side-effect of self-administered cannabis is extremely small, so perhaps there's a balance found in that.



It's certainly a lot better than years ago when Oxycodon was more prevalent in some parts of the US. Unfortunately, many addicts turned to heroin when prescription Oxycodon was restricted.

Don't get me wrong though, some parts of Canada still suffer from significant opiod abuse. Fentanyl is now quite prevalent on the streets too. Fentanyl of all things.

Jesus, fentanyl? "I'm jonesing, man, can you help me out?" "Sure, for twenty bucks I have a Duragesic patch."

 

[Coriolanus]

Dudes are so crazy they'll soon be trying homeopathy again.

 

[echoshifting]

Dudes are so crazy they'll soon be trying homeopathy again.

I went to a homeopathic doctor once, when I was at my wits' end with my pain

He gave me sugar pills and told me they were tiger's blood

Charged me 180 bucks and called and bitched me out a couple months later when I refused to come back

 

[Sylas]

If you're checking into ER, short for Emergency Room, chances are you're in a lot of pain and actually need it.

What helps cause the addiction is that while you're admitted you're free to as much of it as you want and then they write you a prescription for more painkillers when you go home.

I mean, no. A lot of people go to the ER because they think something is wrong and absolutely nothing is wrong. The number of people that waste a professionals time with complaints that are baseless and hilariously stupid is staggeringly high. Have you ever been in the waiting room of an ER?

A lot of the holistic stuff is more or less just someone being a clown. If it helps, it helps. While I don't think they should allow the holistic people to advertise--and it's not the best of ideas to actually try and legitimize it, people complain about pain all the time because the think they feel it. Not all pain is rooted in a physical wound--and the article even says that if you're in genuine pain they'll not leave you in a room with someone that probably won't help.

Hell, the scale of pain in and of itself is probably a good litmus test for them. Someone rattles off precisely how much pain they feel? Maybe try something else first. If someone is falling over and about to pass out? Maaaaybe don't do that.

 

[Nista]

Jesus, fentanyl? "I'm jonesing, man, can you help me out?" "Sure, for twenty bucks I have a Duragesic patch."

My Dad has severe chronic back pain, and has to use those patches to function day to day. I can't imagine anyone wanting to use those as a street drug except as a last resort, you'd be totally useless.

I also know that when I was waiting in the ER for a kidney stone, even constant morphine wasn't keeping me from crying out from pain and throwing up the whole time. If they gave me weaker pain killers or made me play a harp, I probably would have thrown the harp at a doctor or two.

 

[Already Torn]

You know it's a shame they haven't at least tried forms of meditation or hypnosis in terms of alternatives to drugs. At least I can see how those methods might help with the psychological side of pain.

There are pushes for it, but these kinds of treatments aren't realistic in understaffed hospitals. No nurse has the time (or training for that matter) to teach their patients to meditate (if the patient even had an interest in the first place instead of just asking for opiates) when they have six other patients crying out for medication. There's no motivation to seriously try from the health care workers or the patients.

 

[see5harp]

Fetanyl is what a lot of drugs at festivals are getting spiked with iirc. Straight up people dying from OD's.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

As someone extremely familiar with the holistic bullshit that hospitals are trying to pander to, this is almost all bullshit and a scam. Nurses go to a workshop and train in this shit so they can make more money (I guess it gets billed to the patient?). I saw something about Therapeutic Touch or some shit where they try to mold your body's energy or something. I almost started banging my head against the wall. And this is shit endorsed and taught in nursing schools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_touch#Scientific_investigations

Therapeutic touch (commonly shortened to "TT"), known by some as "non-contact therapeutic touch" (NCTT),[1] is a pseudoscientific[2] energy therapy which practitioners claim promotes healing and reduces pain and anxiety.

...

There is no good medical evidence for the effectiveness of therapeutic touch. A Cochrane systematic review found "[t]here is no robust evidence that TT promotes healing of acute wounds"[11] and the American Cancer Society has noted, "Available scientific evidence does not support any claims that TT can cure cancer or other diseases."[10]

Absolutely infuriating.

 

[FStop7]

I'll pass on witchdoctor moonbeam crystalgripper hospital, thanks.

 

[see5harp]

All the chakras and homeopathic energy is probably way less effective than just hiring somebody to beat his dick for 10 minutes.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

It's a psychological condition, there's no one size fits all but we can stand to make the barrier higher. It can be as simple as starting low and working up if it's not effective enough. Though by the same argument restricting an opiate addict's access to these drugs is pretty damn cruel as well.

It is cruel. Either you force them to buy off the street where they don't know the purity of the product and so are much more likely to OD, or you force them to go through the agony of opiate withdrawal.

Compared to that giving them the drugs they need is positively humanitarian

 

[Wag]

Sounds like the treatment the article described, worked. Toradol is not an opioid. The OP hospital would have tried toradol first, from the sounds of it. Morphine or percocet isn't a great first choice.

Wait until we get to the point where you are discouraged from going into the ER for a headache without localizing symptoms.

She offered me the opioids before offering me the Toradol. I'm not so quick to go on opioids, not only because of the risk of addiction, but because the side effects can be so harsh. I took them last year for a broken ankle and I couldn't shit for a week.

 

[Ultryx]

This pisses me off.

 

[Huff]

If you're checking into ER, short for Emergency Room, chances are you're in a lot of pain and actually need it.

Most ED visits aren't emergencies.

 

[TheSeks]

Oh my god, if I was in pain and you started having some holistic energy vibe healing new wave nonsense I'd fucking LOSE MY MIND

Yes, because you're already addicted to opioids. So... :|

 

[Saucy_XL]

There are a select few things I'd say 'alternative' medicine may have a place for, this might be on of them (within reason), especially for non-severe pain. I was prescribed 3 different pain kills for my wisdom teeth and didn't need to take any of them. I think pain can manifest differently among people.

 

[BarringGaffner]

It's a good idea to reduce opioid usage but this holistic stuff just seems like total BS to me.

but if the morons believe it then it does actually work.

it is interesting that pain is so psychological. Such as the difference of pain felt when lifting weights, and if you were just standing around and felt that exact same pain... one actually feels good, the other would be horrible.

 

[Huff]

I went in to the ER last year with one of the worst persistent headaches I ever had- it lasted 3weeks. I was in agony. The doctor sent me for a CAT scan, it came back negative and told me to take some aspirin and sent me home. I refused to leave without treatment. She offered me opioids, I refused that too. She finally gave me an injection of Toradol which is a really strong, non-addictive pain reliever, essentially a really concentrated shot of Aspirin. It worked.

If I was in severe pain and was offered a holistic treatment I wouldn't stand for it.

Opioids are actually a pretty ineffective way to treat headaches.

Ton of other options to try first that usually work better with less side effects

 

[Steel]

At first I was thinking "good" but then I saw they replaced it with a god damned harp among other things.

*sigh*

Oh my god, if I was in pain and you started having some holistic energy vibe healing new wave nonsense I'd fucking LOSE MY MIND

Ye-up.

 

[jb1234]

I don't know. There's no easy solution to this problem. Often, people in legitimate agony are undermedicated because doctors are afraid of prescribing opioids. Those are the people who are lost in the shuffle.

(But a harp? Seriously?)

 

[rjc571]

Vicodin and percocet were lifesavers for me when I've had kidney stones. I do agree that it's a delicate issue however as some people are extremely bad at following directions and thus are much more likely to become dependent.

Most ED visits aren't emergencies.

ED visit? Sounds like an emergency to me!

Opioids are actually a pretty ineffective way to treat headaches.

Ton of other options to try first that usually work better with less side effects

Yeah, they don't so much relieve pain as they make you not give a shit about the constant seering pain that you are in. Doesn't work as well on headaches for whatever reason.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

As someone extremely familiar with the holistic bullshit that hospitals are trying to pander to, this is almost all bullshit and a scam. Nurses go to a workshop and train in this shit so they can make more money (I guess it gets billed to the patient?). I saw something about Therapeutic Touch or some shit where they try to mold your body's energy or something. I almost started banging my head against the wall. And this is shit endorsed and taught in nursing schools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_touch#Scientific_investigations


Absolutely infuriating.

I'm in nursing school right now, and one of my teachers gave a quick run-down on reiki shit the other day, though she wasn't really endorsing it (she'd prob get fired, since evidence-based practice stuff is what everybody wants nowadays) so much as explaining what it is, since she's trained in it. Honestly, I think it's stupid, but at the same time, if the patient buys into it, gets a placebo effect out of it, and avoids having to get a medication that could produce an adverse effect or interact with something else, why not? If there's some kind of junction between perception and human health, we might as well take advantage of it.

 

[SRG01]

Jesus, fentanyl? "I'm jonesing, man, can you help me out?" "Sure, for twenty bucks I have a Duragesic patch."

Think that's bad? W-18 started showing up on streets and it's not actually a controlled substance. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...nton-hitting-streets-across-alberta-1.3458461

I could be remembering incorrectly, but I believe they stumbled onto a W-18 case when the regular treatment showed no improvement in the ER and had to up the dosage by considerable amounts. Can't remember whether if it was in Alberta or BC.

Fetanyl is what a lot of drugs at festivals are getting spiked with iirc. Straight up people dying from OD's.

I heard on the radio that people were straight-up knowingly taking fentanyl, not spiked or laced into other drugs... which is scary in itself.

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

If some fucker tried to treat my pain with a harp they would end up in the bed next to me

 

[Amir0x]

This is not the right way to solve this problem. If you are gonna replace it, you need to do so with alternatively acceptable scientific methods for relieving pain. Not with fucking harps and holistic healing. Fuck that shit and anyone who supports that dangerous shit when people are in real pain.

 

[jb1234]

Whatcha got against harps piano man? *drops gloves*

Wanna fight? I can take you.

(I wouldn't use a piano either for pain relief.)

 

[Monocle]

Good luck lol.

Seems legit.

In seriousness, I hope these kooks can get sued for breaching medical ethics. Replacing effective medication with alternative (i.e. ineffective) wonkery? Go away.

 

[DiscoJer]

Someday I hope humanity outgrows moral panics and stops acting completely irrational because of them.

I doubt it will happen though.

I mean, really, the father of modern surgery, William Halsted, was addicted to morphine for most of his life. Did that stop him from being a productive member of society? Hell no.

 

[YoungFa]

Good luck lol.



Seems legit.

In seriousness, I hope these kooks can get sued for breaching medical ethics. Replacing effective medication with alternative (i.e. ineffective) wonkery? Go away.

But not all pain need to be treated. Just suck it up and get used to it. God damn pill junkies.

 

[Monocle]

But not all pain need to be treated. Just suck it up and get used to it. God damn pill junkies.

If it was good enough for Mother Teresa, it should be good enough for us!

This hospital is bringing each and every one of the patients it tortures by withholding medication closer to Christ. Who would dare criticize their noble work???

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

So fitting!

 

[shira]

Really? Pranic healing? Is there any scientific evidence that backs this stuff up at all? I followed the link in the article to the pranic healing website and it just screamed scam to me.

The hospital has noble goals, trying to ease off on overprescribing addictive drugs that are having an impact on society. But this is not the way to go about it at all.

It's the difference between what is easy and what is possible.
Pain is mind over matter. It's mental. You can overcome it.