Analysis: What really happened in Final Fantasy VIII (SPOILERS)
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SilentProtagonist
Member
hm, refresh me on the relevance of this comment?2San said:
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
How does something that happens in the opening cinematic constitute a "massive spoiler"? It's not even a plot twist. Further, it's an old, difficult to obtain game. The people who were interested likely played it by now, or they never will.androvsky said:
Which is a shame since it has a very good story.
It's time compression, he is remembering events without remembering persons, he is remembering yet at the same time he doesn't know what he is remembering, and the one thread that is being able to tie them is Rinoa.
It's as if you are flushing through pictures of stuff if you know but you can't identify them because that part of the memory is being shuffled around in the air. However, love etc. Rinoa bla bla love brings him back.
Now, if this theory was the hold water beyond rationalization of disjointed and messy story, his flashbacks woul've ended at the point of origin. By origin i mean the point in which everything changes, that is when he is falling and sees Rinoas face. But no, what it's being done is shuffling memories of the one that he has come to love, Rinoa.
He's not dead or dying. Or he wouldn't "remember" past his death.
It's as if you are flushing through pictures of stuff if you know but you can't identify them because that part of the memory is being shuffled around in the air. However, love etc. Rinoa bla bla love brings him back.
Now, if this theory was the hold water beyond rationalization of disjointed and messy story, his flashbacks woul've ended at the point of origin. By origin i mean the point in which everything changes, that is when he is falling and sees Rinoas face. But no, what it's being done is shuffling memories of the one that he has come to love, Rinoa.
He's not dead or dying. Or he wouldn't "remember" past his death.
BlazingDarkness
Member
I love analysis like these- whether they created it with the intention of something like this or not, it's nice that it can be interpreted (and enjoyed) in different ways
Fuck the haters.
Fuck the haters.
wind_steaker
Member
First of all : I really love this theory.
But, as a counter argument to those saying the ice would definetly kill him : have you SEEN the magic in these games? Its far less gratuitous than some of the moves you can pull off. In my mind at the time I think I just assumed someone had cast some healing magic or somesuch.
But, as a counter argument to those saying the ice would definetly kill him : have you SEEN the magic in these games? Its far less gratuitous than some of the moves you can pull off. In my mind at the time I think I just assumed someone had cast some healing magic or somesuch.
Scythesurge
Member
For the same reasons you said they would have that if Squall was dying. The faceless Squall would signify him losing himself due to time compression. There's a pretty clear distinction in that scene between third person and first person. When we view Squall in third person the images are not distorted yet. But as Rinoa turns around, we realize we are viewing what is going through Squall's mind dealing with time compression. He arches his head back as he's experiencing this and we see that through the third person. It's an interesting distinction, but I think I do have to admit that the subsequent events don't really make sense if he's "just going through time compression."Rahul said:
KittenMaster
Member
This theory (as presented in the website) is canonical as far as I'm concerned. It explains some of the less sensible and sudden paced plot elements in the game, most notably Squall's awkward character development.
It does conflict with some of the stranger elements that happen in Disc 1 as well as other discs, such as Laguna dreams and the radio broadcast that's theorized to be Adel.
It does conflict with some of the stranger elements that happen in Disc 1 as well as other discs, such as Laguna dreams and the radio broadcast that's theorized to be Adel.
chicken_ramen
Member
Interpretations aren't more true or right than one another, as some people in this thread seem to be trying to suggest, but can be more or less plausible and useful. My problem with this one in particular is that it's a completely magical solution to a non-problem created by one tiny fmv sequence in disc 1 added to another single frame of symbolism right at the end of disc 4. Personally I feel the end sequence works well enough as it was likely intended. Showing squall being removed from reality, forgotten and alone, as he was warned could happen moments previously.
This death theory is as useful an interpretation as any that takes the internal reality to such an extreme. Not much use at all. It will always be logically consistent, but cannot add anything, just explain away 'holes'. In the posited scenario any damn thing could happen and it would fit because it's all in his head. Everything can happen because nothing happens. That the theory survives the joint dream sequence on the train, to me, is evidence not of its usefulness, but of its level of magical thinking. That it extends outside the extreme reconstruction of the reality in the story post disc 2 to rewrite inconvenient things outside of it in disc 1. It succeeds in making nothing a hole, but then nothing is meaningful.
At least it is based on something in the game, even if it is only very loosely so, this puts it above the Rinoa/Ultimecia nonsense in my eyes anyway.
This death theory is as useful an interpretation as any that takes the internal reality to such an extreme. Not much use at all. It will always be logically consistent, but cannot add anything, just explain away 'holes'. In the posited scenario any damn thing could happen and it would fit because it's all in his head. Everything can happen because nothing happens. That the theory survives the joint dream sequence on the train, to me, is evidence not of its usefulness, but of its level of magical thinking. That it extends outside the extreme reconstruction of the reality in the story post disc 2 to rewrite inconvenient things outside of it in disc 1. It succeeds in making nothing a hole, but then nothing is meaningful.
At least it is based on something in the game, even if it is only very loosely so, this puts it above the Rinoa/Ultimecia nonsense in my eyes anyway.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
It isn't likely to ever get an emulated release. GameTap has the rights, and they're sitting on it. They lost the source code, so a remake is also unlikely.androvsky said:
The closest most people will get is playing it is
Orta
I don't agree with this theory, but I like it. I think I'll try to play as if it's true, the next time I bust through VIII.
I think it's like a conspiracy theory: very seductive because, in many ways, it's more satisfying than the real story. It irons over the inconsistencies and implausibilities that nag at us, even though they're true.
I think it's like a conspiracy theory: very seductive because, in many ways, it's more satisfying than the real story. It irons over the inconsistencies and implausibilities that nag at us, even though they're true.
chicken_ramen said:
Yeah, that's a valid argument. However, there is more to the theory than just the end of disc 1 and the ending FMV. Squall says/thinks a lot of stuff on disc 1 that foreshadows the events on the other discs, and a couple of things on the other discs seem to serve no purpose other than being figments of his imagination (such as moombas). But I do agree that it requires a level of "magical thinking" - or as I would put it, imagination.
There is a pretty simple answer to the impalement.
It wasn't an ice arrow, it was a magic arrow, it goes through him, there's no blood etc plus like others have said, people survive similar fates throughout the game.
As it stands, I loved FF8 but never made it past looking for Lunatic Pandora near the end of Disc 3, must have been a n00b because I tried for ages to find it and really wish I finished the game.
Can I ask one question, rather ask here than the other FF8 thread as it'll spoil it for others.
Did Squall ever find out that Laguna was his father? I've seen the ending on youtube which was awesome but there is nothing between the two, I would have thought it would be a significant plot point. They can't end it without Squall knowing who his mother and father were!
It wasn't an ice arrow, it was a magic arrow, it goes through him, there's no blood etc plus like others have said, people survive similar fates throughout the game.
As it stands, I loved FF8 but never made it past looking for Lunatic Pandora near the end of Disc 3, must have been a n00b because I tried for ages to find it and really wish I finished the game.
Can I ask one question, rather ask here than the other FF8 thread as it'll spoil it for others.
Did Squall ever find out that Laguna was his father? I've seen the ending on youtube which was awesome but there is nothing between the two, I would have thought it would be a significant plot point. They can't end it without Squall knowing who his mother and father were!
They did. As far as we saw, Squall never finds out Laguna and Raine are his parents, though the player is told this more explicitly.
I've read more than a few fanfics that had Squall dealing with the fallout of that revelation, but the game itself never shows it. A missed opportunity in my opinion.
I've read more than a few fanfics that had Squall dealing with the fallout of that revelation, but the game itself never shows it. A missed opportunity in my opinion.
Completely agree!
The best thing about FF8 is that the story was so multi layered and so much was left to the imagination. 11 years later, we're still talking about it but no one really talks about the plot of FF7 or 9!
All these years I thought about the cool stuff that might have happened in Disc 4. I'm sad that Squall never finds, but does Laguna even know that he had a son? I think it's really cheap how they did it, how did Laguna's two sidekicks know?
The best thing about FF8 is that the story was so multi layered and so much was left to the imagination. 11 years later, we're still talking about it but no one really talks about the plot of FF7 or 9!
All these years I thought about the cool stuff that might have happened in Disc 4. I'm sad that Squall never finds, but does Laguna even know that he had a son? I think it's really cheap how they did it, how did Laguna's two sidekicks know?
Laguna seems to be aware of it. The end of the game has something related to his relationship with Raine, so presumably he knows what happened. Whether he does anything with it is left to the imagination. I figure Laguna would at least try to repair the relationship with Squall, but it would be very difficult since he did essentially abandon Squall to be raised as a lonely orphan.
harriet the spy
Member
Since I always liked the R=U theory, can someone point me to few of the reasons why it makes no sense? I always thought it was pretty self-contained...
This theory is pretty nice too, but it has tons of sleigh-of-hands justifications. Case in point: I am not sure why Ultimecia having Griever makes any sense. Her (=enemy) having griever and moombas (=helpers) being lions go in completely different directions.
Maybe I am overanalyzing, but this focus on griever (why does rinoa care about making a copy of that shitty ring? why does it appear as a final boss?) always struck me as odd. Unless it find a good reason for it, I won't give brownie points for a particular theory..
This theory is pretty nice too, but it has tons of sleigh-of-hands justifications. Case in point: I am not sure why Ultimecia having Griever makes any sense. Her (=enemy) having griever and moombas (=helpers) being lions go in completely different directions.
Maybe I am overanalyzing, but this focus on griever (why does rinoa care about making a copy of that shitty ring? why does it appear as a final boss?) always struck me as odd. Unless it find a good reason for it, I won't give brownie points for a particular theory..
harriet the spy
Member
Rahul said:
It would help if you didn't start trashing the other fan theories yourself
(not that i care all that much about R=U, but the "I AM RIGHT U WRONG" doesn't help have constructive discussions.)
chicken_ramen
Member
Rahul said:
I don't really mean imagination, I mean magical, like a god of the gaps. Where imagination starts writing it's own story. At that point the boundaries of the story itself start being meaningless, especially with an explanation as powerful as 'it's all a dream.'
There may not have been cute bear tigers things before disc 2, but there were giant t-rexes, a talking pair of minotaurs, a magical ice shooting witch who could turn stone gargoyles into live lizards, and an inexplicable shared dream experience. These things are as meaningful to the fiction of the world as the Shumi are. The line in the sand, as to their existence or not, is drawn here by the end of Disc 1. This is circular, and a part of the problem I have with the usefulness of this interpretation. Saying that the theory helps explain weird stuff after disc 1 does nothing for the weird stuff in disc 1, it just makes it more inexplicable. If the dying mind of a teenager was required to come up with the later stuff. Why is some of it only explained by being his imagination and others of it just their normal reality? How can you usefully draw a non circular distinction?
Something this theory does explain is why the story is adolescent male empowerment fiction. But to me personally, I don't need that explained. Games are almost universally adolescent male empowerment fantasies. To me other than that it has little explanatory power. It is interesting to think about, nonetheless.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
The problem with this theory is that in reality the Final Fantasy writing team has all the subtlety of an M4 Sherman Tank. Were Squall to have died, you can bet the player would have been beaten about the head with that explicit fact dozens of times.
The only writers in the Japanese gaming industry that would have the talent and the audacity to write a complete mindfuck like that would be Shigesato Itoi or Suda51.
The only writers in the Japanese gaming industry that would have the talent and the audacity to write a complete mindfuck like that would be Shigesato Itoi or Suda51.
Brera said:
You know what? People still talk about FF8 because as a whole, IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE. Which is why these dumb theories pop up on the near-Silent Hill level of reading-too-far-into.
I mean, come on, FF8 was a colossal waste of time (compression). Any over-analyzing of its plot is pretty much the dumbest thing you can do with this game because what you see is what you get. There is nothing behind the R=U or S=D theories but fanwank.
isnt FF VIII the one where you bump into the father of the main character but the father never tells you that he is your father because he feels bad that he abandoned the mother of the protagonist and loved the mother of the protagonists primary love interest..?
man i cant remember because i havent played this in ages...
man i cant remember because i havent played this in ages...
harriet the spy said:
Well I just did about a page or two back, but I guess I can go over it again.
There really isn't THAT much focus on the ring, Rinoa just thought it was cool looking and noticed it was a part of Squall that he obviously was a bit protective of. Ultimecia does not have Griever. She summons Griever by reading Squalls thoughts and conjuring up Griever into what Squall see's it as. Not by summoning it from his ring.
The reason why it doesn't make sense? because Sorceresses live normal life spans, and Ultimecia is from the FAR future.
Also: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197343/34215
I posted this Faq in the other thread, it covers VIII's plot and it disproves the R=U theory.
Well, you are sent to the dream world, where Squall see's Laguna which is his father. It is never known if Laguna tells Squall, but yes he abadoned Raine to go save Ellone from the Sorceress Adel. It's not really known if he loved Julia, he was infatuated with her, but it is believed that Julia(Rinoa's mom) was in love with him.
Anonymous Tipster
Member
I find this analysis to be very interesting, and as someone who is not crazy about FFVIII's plot or characters that is saying something. While I don't personally believe "Squall is dead", I have thoroughly enjoyed the analysis of it, and the other ideas presented in this thread.
I suppose I sit in the "Time Compression" camp, but there are two things about the ending FMV that don't sit well with that theory to me. One is the "Faceless Squall" image that flashes oh-so-quickly, and the second is the "Dead Rinoa" in a spacesuit scene.
Does anyone care to explain those in a context outside of "Squall is Dead"?
I suppose I sit in the "Time Compression" camp, but there are two things about the ending FMV that don't sit well with that theory to me. One is the "Faceless Squall" image that flashes oh-so-quickly, and the second is the "Dead Rinoa" in a spacesuit scene.
Does anyone care to explain those in a context outside of "Squall is Dead"?
harriet the spy
Member
Oh, sorry. Missed it
Ok, no offense meant, but I don't entirely buy your explanation.
There isn't that much focus on the ring, but the fact there is focus on it at all it odd. Stories rarely gratuitously mention a seemingly plot-unimportant item twice in a story, unless you want to somehow some kind of point with it. Fuck, griever is one of the final bosses. Why does ultimecia, after reading Squall's thought, decide to manifest this particular random item, of all things, as a monster to fight squall.
The normal life spans seems does not seem that plot relevant to me.
a) It is the kind of weak plot holes that you find by buckets in actually correct explanations of plots. The kind of plot holes story writers justify by myriads of shitty jack-of-all trade explanations (nanomachines!). It's not a major plot point which is hammered throughout the story, it's a note in a game guide.
b) Ultimecia certainly isn't your run-of-the mill sorceress, though, right? I mean Adel is still able to fight when the party meets her/him - wasn't he/she kinda old by that point?
As a side note, I don't think that theory is true - I even somewhat recall the writers of the story commenting on it being incorrect. Just wanted to argue it's not as full of holes as it seems, as wrong as it is in the end.
badcrumble
Member
I like Ueda a great deal, but he's more of a minimalist poet than someone who comes up with especially twisty stories. His stuff is pretty straightforward.TheExodu5 said:
Oh, sorry. Missed it
Ok, no offense meant, but I don't entirely buy your explanation.
There isn't that much focus on the ring, but the fact there is focus on it at all it odd. Stories rarely gratuitously mention a seemingly plot-unimportant item twice in a story, unless you want to somehow some kind of point with it. Fuck, griever is one of the final bosses. Why does ultimecia, after reading Squall's thought, decide to manifest this particular random item, of all things, as a monster to fight squall.
The normal life spans seems does not seem that plot relevant to me.
The focus on the ring is for the development of Squall and Rinoa. You see at one point Squall is protective of it, doesn't want anyone to touch it. And then later on he LETS Rinoa have it, even though she was trying to give it back. The normal life span plot is stated in the ultimania. It makes perfect sense, seeing as Ultimecia is from the FAR future, Rinoa obviously cannot live that long.
Griever is important, but not in the sense that it involves R=U. It involves the development of Squall and Rinoa, like stated above. Now I'm a bit rusty on Griever, but I believe Squall views him as something powerful.
Adel was sealed. So it obviously kept her alive all this time.
I still disagree it's full of many holes. Especially since it heavily relies on Rinoa not having a normal life span.
harriet the spy
Member
Well, I don't want to keep that discussion running much longer - it's really not that important. to me
But,
I stand my point that the fact that her lifespan is only mentioned in a guide makes that a weak criticism of the story (once again, I agree it's wrong, but not that it's as weak as some make it out to be). And I stand my point that I don't see why Ultimecia decides to fucking make griever into some kind of monster. It doesn't make any fucking sense (plot wise, symbolism wise) - but from that point of view, Dragona is right. It's most likely because the writers have no fucking idea what they are doing with the story, and they are just writing random nonsense to finish it up.
But,
is precisely the kind of shitty justifications story writers use for justifying their plot holes. The same kind could be used to explain why Rinoa was still alive. She probably decided to seal herself for a while, for god knows what reason.anaron said:
I stand my point that the fact that her lifespan is only mentioned in a guide makes that a weak criticism of the story (once again, I agree it's wrong, but not that it's as weak as some make it out to be). And I stand my point that I don't see why Ultimecia decides to fucking make griever into some kind of monster. It doesn't make any fucking sense (plot wise, symbolism wise) - but from that point of view, Dragona is right. It's most likely because the writers have no fucking idea what they are doing with the story, and they are just writing random nonsense to finish it up.
Much like a David Lynch plot
Or Kojima
I think that, for such a theory to be considered, it would have to explain some of the problems the story has. While I don't think that the standard interpretation of FF8 has any notable plotholes (which doesn't mean I think it is a good plot), there are still things to be explained which doesn't necessarily mean the plot doesn't make sense. Mainly, who is Ultimecia, and, as the essay reminded me, who is Norg.
The only question the theory addresses is the one about what happened to Squall's wound, but it throws too many other things out of the window to be satisfying. (I think it's reasonable to assume Edea still had some control over her own body, and did a non-fatal attack on Squall.)
The price we pay to have that minor question answered is way too high. Suddenly, the ending is even crazier (what does the camcorder footage means? Does Squall even hallucinate a battery going out?!), the Laguna dreams all the team is having are not addressed at ALL in this explanation, as neither is what had happened to Edea and Seifer.
And, if it is really an hallucination, I'd expect some stuff to NOT make sense. Yet the game is largely self consistent.
edit: I think including stuff that the Ultimania guide said is really poor form. If it's not said in the game, it may as well be fanfiction.
The only question the theory addresses is the one about what happened to Squall's wound, but it throws too many other things out of the window to be satisfying. (I think it's reasonable to assume Edea still had some control over her own body, and did a non-fatal attack on Squall.)
The price we pay to have that minor question answered is way too high. Suddenly, the ending is even crazier (what does the camcorder footage means? Does Squall even hallucinate a battery going out?!), the Laguna dreams all the team is having are not addressed at ALL in this explanation, as neither is what had happened to Edea and Seifer.
And, if it is really an hallucination, I'd expect some stuff to NOT make sense. Yet the game is largely self consistent.
edit: I think including stuff that the Ultimania guide said is really poor form. If it's not said in the game, it may as well be fanfiction.
harriet the spy said:Well, I don't want to keep that discussion running much longer - it's really not that important. to me
But,
is precisely the kind of shitty justifications story writers use for justifying their plot holes. The same kind could be used to explain why Rinoa was still alive. She probably decided to seal herself for a while, for god knows what reason.
I stand my point that the fact that her lifespan is only mentioned in a guide makes that a weak criticism of the story (once again, I agree it's wrong, but not that it's as weak as some make it out to be). And I stand my point that I don't see why Ultimecia decides to fucking make griever into some kind of monster. It doesn't make any fucking sense (plot wise, symbolism wise) - but from that point of view, Dragona is right. It's most likely because the writers have no fucking idea what they are doing with the story, and they are just writing random nonsense to finish it up.
Much like a David Lynch plot
Or Kojima
What the fuck are you talking about?
How is that a shitty justification? have you even played VIII?
Adel is sealed away because there was no way to kill her, not because it was some "stupid" justification. It never mentions anyones specific life span, just a sorceresses. Do you even know what sealing them does? they can't break out of it, so why would Rinoa seal herself, if she can't break out? thats some stupid fucking logic.
Elf- That's just stupid. The Ultimania is written by the creators, if were to say that is fanfiction, then why don't we just agree this theory is fact? is the creators opinion worth nothing?
Himuro said:
He is talking of the point where he meets Aeris. He falls from a big building and lands on the church where Aeris has her flowers. Logic dictates that he should have died, and the stuff that happens afterwards is too out of whack to be real. It's a dream.
Final Fantasy VI: Ceres throws herself off a cliff and drowns. She hallucinates the rest of the
game.
We can do this with a lot of games. It's a terrible and lazy analysis.
anaron said:
Reverse EA Sports theorem: If it's not in the game, it's not in the game.
The creator's opinion is worth nothing if it's not put on the creation. See for example, Bradbury's change of opinion about what's F451 about. First he said it's about censorship, then he said it's about television. Maybe it's about both!? Who knows, but certainly NOT Ray Bradbury. Most moderns schools of literary criticism accept this.
U=R can be refuted without referring to the word of god. I've seen people referring to the death of the author, at least in respect to the S=D theory. You can't have it both ways.
harriet the spy
Member
anaron said:
My god, calm down, I thought it was obvious I didn't actually imply Rinoa sealed herself. How old are you to get so angry about this kind of bullshit?
I know it's true that Adel didn't age because she was sealed, but it's like nanomachines in MGS, it's the kind of plot device that works for everything. You could think that Rinoa replicated whatever made sorcerers didn't age when sealed in order not to age herself, if you prefer.
I am *not saying* that's what happened, just saying how 'the Rinoa is not immortal' argument doesn't matter all that much. It was never crucial in the main plot of FFVIII that sorceresses aged or not. You can think of millions of simple explanations (all incorrect) of the kind 'sealing' which justify this minor point.
I hate to repeat myself, but I _know_ the theory is incorrect. I know ultimania is written by the creators and that (afair) they said rinoa=u is wrong. This is not the point. I am saying i think it's a cute theory that fixes more things than it breaks.
ElFly said:
:lol
Wow. I just don't even....
I'm sorry, you're right the creators opinion is worth NOTHING at all.
No one is saying the ONLY way R=U is refuted is by the Ultimania, but to say it can't be used as an example is the biggest load of BS I've ever heard.
But if you would like a more clear cut answer then here:
Adel did not rule for centuries, the game shows that she was near a point of dying and had to find someone else to take over for her. If a sorceress did not have a normal life span, Adel would not have to find someone else to rule.
HTS- I hardly got mad, but I do have a problem with you attacking something so silly, I mean of all things to call shit writing and you say that?
I know you said that you don't believe in R=U, though the theory is far from cute.It would mean Rinoa went batshit insane and tried to kill herself and Squall the one she apparently went insane for. I just hate the theory and don't understand why it's popular.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Just throwing this out there: It cant possibly be a dream since you cant read in dreams.
ShinobiFist
Banned
This. People are looking to much into the "Ice spell" Cut scene. I don't believe that FFVIII team was that clever to write something like this theory. Someone posted in this thread about the translation of the game. And what he posted was totally different from what was said in the NA version.Dragona Akehi said:
harriet the spy
Member
anaron said:
The world is full of people who went mad with love and tried to kill their lovers
(the smiley is for the silliness of the sentence above, not for the reality behind it..)
I hardly see why it's surprising she'd go mad if she was left a thousand years alone!
Though, more to the point, Adel's plot was not so much bad writing per se, but that same kind of plot device could have been used in an example of shitty writing to explain why Rinoa lived that long (to run my comparison into the ground: a bit like nanomachines were not a shitty plot device in MGS1, but became so in MGS4..).
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
HK-47 said:
lol thats totally where I got it from :lol
Still looking for sailors later?Himuro said:
I never bought that Squall died after disc one. The bandages, the fact that characters potentially suffer much worse in battle, everyone is supernaturally resilient etc. It doesn't have enough weight. I don't think I regarded it as any different from Sephiroth slashing Tifa across her entire length. She would have more than likely died from that.. Fast.