The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
How early was it? They take a couple weeks before things show up on YouTube. (I hate it.)
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Angry Video Game Nerd
- Thread starter demi
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shanafan
Member
Of course Mike thinks chess is geeky..
BassForever
Member
That's because it is
Shambalakan
Member
This is the list of Star Wars movies until 2020:
2015
Episode VII
2016
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
2017
Episode VIII
2018
Untitled Han Solo Anthology film
2019
Episode IX
2020
Untitled Boba Fett Anthology film
A Black Falcon
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ax-3PC7p9Q We have a new contender for worst, most inaccurate video of theirs yet! In this James & Mike Monday, they cover, very briefly, Star Wars Arcade (32X) and Rebel Assault (Sega CD). In the Star Wars Arcade part, they spend the majority of the few minutes of coverage talking about how it's not like the 1983 arcade game which they wrongly think it is a port of. It's just bizarre to see Mike go into such detail about vector graphics, without the slightest mention that Star Wars Arcade isn't a port of that game, it's a (very accurate) port of Sega's early '90s Star Wars arcade game! Come on, this is not hard stuff to look up. This fact basically invalidates the majority of what they talk about for the game, but at least the gameplay itself is simple enough for them to understand.
Rebel Assault, however... they have the usual problem new players have, not understanding how to turn in the canyon, and blame the game for their inability to figure out the controls. I admit that it's a bit unintuitive, but still, you can turn just fine in that game once you figure out that you have to turn using the diagonals, not just left or right. Just use the diagonals and you'll make the turns just fine. They say a lot of other nonsense about this game too, about how 'it was never impressive', etc, which is crazy; back in the early '90s, a CD Star Wars game with full voice acting and clips from the movie was impressive! I should know, I got the game back in '95. And on that note, they don't play one second of cutscene in the video; they skip straight to the gameplay. Rebel Assault's as much about the cutscenes as it is the gameplay, so that is a loss. I'll always like Rebel Assault even if it's objectively not that great, so seeing them so wrongly bash the game wasn't pleasant.
Rebel Assault, however... they have the usual problem new players have, not understanding how to turn in the canyon, and blame the game for their inability to figure out the controls. I admit that it's a bit unintuitive, but still, you can turn just fine in that game once you figure out that you have to turn using the diagonals, not just left or right. Just use the diagonals and you'll make the turns just fine. They say a lot of other nonsense about this game too, about how 'it was never impressive', etc, which is crazy; back in the early '90s, a CD Star Wars game with full voice acting and clips from the movie was impressive! I should know, I got the game back in '95. And on that note, they don't play one second of cutscene in the video; they skip straight to the gameplay. Rebel Assault's as much about the cutscenes as it is the gameplay, so that is a loss. I'll always like Rebel Assault even if it's objectively not that great, so seeing them so wrongly bash the game wasn't pleasant.
A Black Falcon
Member
It's not that they're bad, that's fine; not everyone is equally good at games. The problem is that they would usually rather insult a game than actually learn how to play it properly, and say dumb stuff without doing simple research. Rebel Assault, Indiana Jones an the Infernal Machine, Castlevania [64], etc... there's nothing wrong with having some depth to your game, or some controls which aren't immediately obvious so long as they aren't TOO hard to figure out. I'm sure reactions like theirs are why modern games all have overdone tutorials, but I don['t think "figure it out or read the manual" is a bad philosophy, myself. It's just fine, you just need to read the documentation!
For example, they have the manual for Rebel Assault there. I just looked at mine. Had they bothered to read it, which they clearly did not, they'd have seen in the controls page that the manual tells you to press UP and LEFT or UP and RIGHT to make sharp turns in the game. The solution to their problem is right there in the manual, no tricks involved. And for Star Wars Arcade, one minute on Google, Wikipedia, etc. would have answered their question about what game Star Wars Arcade is actually a port of.
James and Mike mondays aren't reviews. I like that they're not researched at all and they basically just shoot the shit about the game. It's incredibly nostalgic in reminding me of days when I'd play video games with friends with no internet and half the time with no manual (and the other half of the time the manual was incomprehensible).
Look, Rebel Assault was not a very good game, no matter how good it looked at times. There were better PC Star Wars games by far at the time (TIE Fighter came out not long after for crying out loud, and also had a CD-ROM version with better cut scenes and voice tracks). Nor was it either the most fun or the most visually spectacular game that probably came bundled with your SB16 CD-ROM drive (which is where I got it) kit. And frankly, on top of that, the Sega CD version they're playing there doesn't even look as good as I remember the PC version looking anyways so it doesn't really even have that going for it (*).
Every complaint they had about it is a complaint a lot of people had playing it at the time in a way very similar to the way they do it in these videos. That's the thing these videos are about, and I personally really appreciate that about them. If you don't like it, it's not like they don't make more review-y videos as well.
(*) I looked at LPs of both and.. yeah, the Sega CD version looks like absolute ass. Everything (cut scenes and gameplay) is dithered into either stipple patterns or incomprehensible mush. The canyon bombing run they get to is particularly awful, a muddy mess.
A Black Falcon
Member
In the '90s the first thing I did after buying a game was read the manual. Always do that first, then play it later. Of course that I mostly played PC games in the '90s is part of that, but even for Game Boy games, I always read the manual first. So I can't really identify with this myself, no. It was always frustrating when I'd rent a game and it didn't come with the manual... and sure, now I have lots of loose-cart games, but if I don't know how to play I'll look it up online. At some point in the '00s in-game help and tutorials replaced manuals, and they serve a similar purpose but are harder to skip, so people have even less of an excuse now than before.
Well yeah, of course there's no comparison between Rebel Assault and TIE Fighter; they're in totally different leagues. Rebel Assault is an amusing little FMV-shooting game I've always thought is kind of fun and was impressed with back in 1995, but it's nothing more than that and it is certainly quite dated. TIE Fighter, in contrast, is a near-perfect masterpiece and one of the very best games ever made... almost anything looks not-so-great compared to TIE Fighter. However, I didn't get TIE Fighter until '96, some time after Rebel Assault. A year or two is a relevant time gap. And beyond myself, Rebel Assault, for better or worse, reached a larger audience since it was on consoles too (not only Sega CD, but also 3DO).
The computer we got in early '95 came with Rebel Assault, Maniac Mansion: Day of the Tentacle, and Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, so yes, Rebel Assault was indeed the third best of those first three CD games I owned (and Fate of Atlantis is the best of them)... but it's Star Wars, so it was cool. And it's the only one with live-action FMV, even if it was pretty low-quality, and 3d environments, even if they are pre-rendered video.
The PC version does look better, yes, but it's not exactly a great-looking game even on PC, as far as I remember... though the PC version definitely is better -- it has better graphics (by a bit), lets you play as either am ale or female pilot (you're male only on Sega CD), and has one more level that was cut from the SCD version (one of the two on-foot target-shooting levels was cut from the SCD game). The SCD version claims to have the same number of levels as the PC one because one of the later levels in the PC game is split into two levels for the SCD.
Every complaint? But "it's not a good port of the 1983 arcade game" is not a common complaint about Star Wars Arcade, and anyone who read the manual would know how to turn in Rebel Assault. I have seen other videos of people who initially couldn't figure out the turning in Rebel Assault, but they eventually do figure it out most of the time, something James & Mike don't to try to do. They just insult the game and turn it off, instead.
Consider -- James's channel is one of the top retro-gaming channels. I'm sure a lot of people watch him but not other classic-gaming videos. This isn't just about your or my nostalgia; this is about at least semi-accurately portraying the games played so that the audience actually knows what the game is like. If that video there is someones' only experience with Rebel Assault, and I'm sure there are many people where that is true, then they now have a very wrong idea of what the game is. And will they look up info to see if James and Mike were right? Likely not. With their prominence they really should care about accuracy, it matters more than if it was some random channel no one watches.
Like what, Bootsy Beats? That's not a long series, but it is good. The main AVGN videos are often entertaining and I've watched all of them, but may or may not be accurate; sometimes he exaggerates things for comedic effect, of course.
1. "objectively not that great"
2. "wrongly bash the game"
If the game is objectively not that great, then I don't understand the issue with them disliking and criticizing it.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Oh the PC you could just set it to autoplay... I think that's how I finished the game, just to watch the cutscenes.
Now of course, there's youtube. lol
Now of course, there's youtube. lol
BassForever
Member
thechristoph
Sir!
I'm like you a lot in this regard. It does get on my nerves when anyone is just just flat-out wrong about a game though. I'm inquisitive; when I'm interested in something I look it up and gain as much knowledge as I can about it. I do sometimes get the "why aren't you more like me" frustration feeling but hey.. different strokes.
It's like when people criticize Game Sack for their reviews of games boiling down to "I like the graphics and it's fun to play. Give it a try." Not every YouTuber out there is trying to be super academic about games. Some of them are more casual, and there's room for that.
Seraphis Cain
bad gameplay lol
#22 - Hammerin' Harry (NES)
I only know of this because of the PSP game called Hammerin' Hero, which is part of the series.
I only know of this because of the PSP game called Hammerin' Hero, which is part of the series.
MrCunningham
Member
I remember renting this game for my Sega CD when it was new. The FMV looked OK-ish for Sega CD standards but still grainy, I remember the game feeling so janky back then. The controls were also very unintuitive for that opening Beggar's Canyon run. There is no indication that the diagonals ever need to be used on the d-pad and it was frustrating the first time that I ever played it. It becomes a guessing game that would test your patience. Once you past that stage, the rest of the stages weren't so bad. But the game is not particularly great either. But I do remember my first impressions being terrible as well.
Silpheed on the Sega CD roughly came out around the same time period, did a much better job utilizing FMV backgrounds than Rebel Assault did and was a much better game on the same platform. Though, then again Rebel Assault wasn't a pure shooter as it has a couple segments where you are on foot as well. But still. Rebel Assault on the Sega CD didn't seem like something worth owning to me back then.
I didn't expect him to do a traditional review video.
I feel like we've been over this one before, but please recognize that there are quite a lot of people out there who did not diligently study manuals before playing games. Especially for console games. Whether you had that experience or not, this is the kind of experience these videos are about, and 'research' about games at the time was basically talking shitty rumors with your friends or whatever weird dumb crap GamePro deigned to put in their articles. Most of it was false.
I didn't really touch on the Star Wars Arcade thing because I haven't played either version of it, but if in 1993 you sat me down in front of a "Star Wars Arcade" game on a console and it didn't look like the vector one there's a really good chance I'd have been surprised too. Arcades were already dying at this point (or at least becoming basically the same 5 games everywhere) where I lived, so I doubt I ever even saw the Sega game in an arcade.
Honestly, just stop expecting these to be well-researched reviews. They aren't either of those things. They're low effort quick let's plays of games they were curious about but barely or never played at the time. I'm just saying if that's not your cup of tea that's fine, but don't judge them as something they're not.
BigJonsson
Member
Rebel Assault came with my first CD-ROM lol, also shareware Doom
Walter Matthau
Member
Not very Christmassy, but pretty damn hilarious.
Yeah, the game is pretty much garbage. It was funny watching them be completely bewildered by what was going on. If they actually took the time to learn the controls, I imagine the video would be more boring with them just going through the motions and mentioning that the game isn't very fun.
A Black Falcon
Member
Decent new AVGN. I haven't played much of MK Mythologies myself, but with everything I've seen about how cheap and unfair it is, I don't see any reason to change that either. So yeah, that's probably an accurate video of a lot of peoples' experiences with the game, going by what you hear about it online.
No, as a kid the level I had trouble with is level 3, the canyon run on that planet full of pillar-like rocks. That level's tough! I remember looking at a Rebel Assault strategy guide in the bookstore so that I could find what the cheats and passwords were, so I could skip that level... I did eventually beat that stage (and the game) much later, but yeah, that one had me stuck for a long while. Level 4's the battle against the Star Destroyer, though, and that was really cool back in '95 so I'm glad I did find those passwords. Sure, it's just a railed target-shooting stage, but you're taking on a Star Destroyer so it's cool regardless.
Oh, and as far as magazines go, the two gaming magazines I subscribed to in the '90s were Nintendo Power and PC Gamer. I preferred more fact-heavy mags, over sketchier ones like GamePro... though in the late '90s to early '00s I did read some websites that liked to print rumors, admittedly (NintendoNext for one...). But it's easier than ever in recent years to find the facts behind that kind of rumor.
Still, yes, the early '80s Atari game is much better known than Sega's game, but why would Sega be porting an Atari game? It doesn't make sense to expect that game to be a port of that then more than 10-year-old game from a different publisher. Also, a bit later on Sega's second arcade Star Wars game, Star Wars Trilogy (1998), did get more attention -- I remember playing that one, certainly. It had this huge cabinet with a big monitor, and was a very simple but entertaining game. Sega made the Star Wars Episode I Racer arcade game as well in 2000, which is different from Lucasarts' console game, and a Star Wars pinball game in 1997 also. Sega made Star Wars games in arcades, the ones after Star Wars Arcade just didn't get home ports.
Because their criticism is entirely about the controls, which aren't actually a problem if you know how to play the game. The games' issues aren't related to the controls; the issues are that it's short, too simplistic compared to better games like X-Wing or Dark Forces, more about the cinematic experience of "wow, CDs have lots of space!" than the gameplay sometimes, uneven in difficulty (level 3 or 4 is one of the hardest ones), there are too many target-shooting stages where you just move a cursor around the screen, you never actually get free flight only railed paths or first-person target-shooting stuff where all you can do is slightly shift to each side to dodge stuff, the bits of live-action video are VERY low quality even on the PC, the Sega CD version looks worse (though for a SCD game it's okay looking) and is missing a level and the female player character option... those are the flaws I can think of offhand, for Rebel Assault. They mention none of them.
Good example here, yes.
That "I never read the instructions" thing is common on Youtube, but I wasn't like that, and I don't think my friends were either, as a kid. Nice to see others here are the same.
I like Game Sack, but yeah, don't watch their videos for in-depth reviews; they only do that basic 'did I like it or didn't I' kind of thing. That's fine and the videos are often entertaining, but it might be interesting to see them try a more in-depth review sometime as well.
The first level is very easy once you read the manual and learn the controls. Really, just read the manual, it explains how to make a sharp turn. Then take the "Hard" path when the path branches, in the first level -- it's actually much easier than the "Easy" path.
No, as a kid the level I had trouble with is level 3, the canyon run on that planet full of pillar-like rocks. That level's tough! I remember looking at a Rebel Assault strategy guide in the bookstore so that I could find what the cheats and passwords were, so I could skip that level... I did eventually beat that stage (and the game) much later, but yeah, that one had me stuck for a long while. Level 4's the battle against the Star Destroyer, though, and that was really cool back in '95 so I'm glad I did find those passwords. Sure, it's just a railed target-shooting stage, but you're taking on a Star Destroyer so it's cool regardless.
Silpheed is a great game, and yeah, its visuals are some of the most impressive on the Sega CD. I like that game a lot, and it's certainly better than Rebel Assault... but Rebel Assault is Star Wars, which gives it something Silpheed doesn't have. Silpheed is also a flat 2d game gameplay-wise, not mostly 3d like Rebel Assault is, so they're not directly comparable in gameplay, just visuals since both games have that "FMV backdrop with gameplay on top" design.
I think we have, yes.
Sure, I understand your point, but it's not the early '90s anymore, and James (and Mike) have a large audience who don't know about the games they show off. This isn't just a couple of friend stalking only to eachother, they're making a popular show, and make some totally inaccurate videos loaded with uncorrected falsehoods that give people wrong impressions about games they probably know nothing about other than what James and Mike have said. I don't think "but they're just trying to recreate the feeling of the '90s" is a good enough excuse, considering that.
Oh, and as far as magazines go, the two gaming magazines I subscribed to in the '90s were Nintendo Power and PC Gamer. I preferred more fact-heavy mags, over sketchier ones like GamePro... though in the late '90s to early '00s I did read some websites that liked to print rumors, admittedly (NintendoNext for one...). But it's easier than ever in recent years to find the facts behind that kind of rumor.
Weren't arcade still in their late MK and SFII-led final good period, in '93? They did fade fast after that I agree, but '92-'93 were still a good time for arcades thanks to those two super-popular fighting games.
Still, yes, the early '80s Atari game is much better known than Sega's game, but why would Sega be porting an Atari game? It doesn't make sense to expect that game to be a port of that then more than 10-year-old game from a different publisher. Also, a bit later on Sega's second arcade Star Wars game, Star Wars Trilogy (1998), did get more attention -- I remember playing that one, certainly. It had this huge cabinet with a big monitor, and was a very simple but entertaining game. Sega made the Star Wars Episode I Racer arcade game as well in 2000, which is different from Lucasarts' console game, and a Star Wars pinball game in 1997 also. Sega made Star Wars games in arcades, the ones after Star Wars Arcade just didn't get home ports.
I don't expect well-researched reviews from James and Mike, but "figure out how to play the game before insulting it in a web video" isn't THAT high a bar, is it?
This is hilarious
I'm sure it was still carrying on in a lot of places, but arcades were definitely dying where I lived. Worth noting I lived in suburbs and small towns until about 1999.
Yes, because as I keep saying the point is to show them *having* that experience. They get out a game, they sit down and play it for an hour, and record their reactions as they happen. There are people who do the videos you want, and while I enjoy them as well, they are not the same kind of nostalgic experience for me at all. They're just infodumps.
Also, I guarantee you a bunch of people went and played both those games for themselves after these videos and some of them might even have enjoyed them. That said, if Rebel Assault is forgotten except as a footnote to the PC CD-ROM revolution -- a game almost everyone had but few really enjoyed -- then I don't think that's really a bad thing. That's pretty much precisely the place in history it deserves. People who want to know more about it can just fire up DOSBox and play it for themselves.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Silpheed was so awesome. Not just graphics, but the game played very well too, and the background videos didn't look out of place compared to real-time stuff. And the Galactica esque backstory was well done as well.
This game is giving Bootsy trouble!
Ha, ha, oh wow, what a way to end it!
shanafan
Member
Before watching.. is the video basically Mike explaining why he hates Episode I?
EDIT: Yeah, it is. I feel like listening to James and Mike complain about Episode I is being so generic. We get it. You didn't like it. Guess what? Some people did like it. I really can't believe James left the theater after seeing it once thinking it was awful.
And by the way, they are awful at Lego games, lol. Mike complains about playing through Episode I to get to Episodes 4-6, but he didn't notice the big, bold words that said all the episodes were unlocked after the first level?
shanafan
Member
I am one of them
The pod race, Qui-Gon Jin and Obi-Wan versus Darth Maul, Duel of the Fates, "Anakin Skywalker, meet Obi-Wan Kenobi", so much good stuff.
brianmcdoogle
Member
It's okay to like bad things; the Prequels are bad; liking something does not make it good.
A Black Falcon
Member
Just because the popular opinion is that the prequels are bad doesn't mean that they actually are! They're good movies which it's very popular to hate on. Each of the prequels is better than the last, and ep. 3 I like as much as the least great of the original trilogy, but there's a lot of good about "even" episode 1.
Sure they have flaws and aren't as good as the OT for the most part, but at least the PT are new movies, not just rehashes of movies Lucas made decades ago. 7 is an okay to good movie, but it loses a lot on its incredibly unoriginal plot, lame villain (even PT Anakin is better than Kylo Ren...), constant callbacks and references, and Disney-ified elements. I know 7 was made for people who hate the prequels, which isn't me, but still... it has issues too.
You've got some serious rose tinted glasses going on with the PT to post this. They're full of completely *ridiculous* references to the OT (Anakin made C-3PO? Seriously? Chewbacca is there for.. some reason?). Episode 1 recreates the death star run with a droid ship (and in an incredibly dumb way). What the hell is Jar Jar if not a ripoff of Disney-style sidekicks?
And Anakin being better than Kylo? Yeah no. Kylo is Anakin done right, if anything.
brianmcdoogle
Member
Only a mod deals in absolutes.