Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
masud said:
Because they're shitty when not?
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Another IGN Top Ten List - Controller Innovations
- Thread starter WindyMan
- Start date
Because they're shitty when not?
Spectral Glider
Member
The 5200 stick was analog. The problem was that it wasn't self-centering, that's what caused people to bitch about it. I, on the other hand, never had a problem with the stick. The fuckin rubber fire buttons on the other hand drove me up the wall, they sucked 57 flavors of ass.
The Vectrex had an analog stick, yeah. And the Intellivision's discs were analog too. Analog ruled in the late 70s and early 80s....Pong machines, atari's video pinball, and the Colecovision, 2600 and 5200 even had seperate track ball controllers. I believe Coleco was the first to dish out a driving wheel too, with the Turbo module. I think only two games or so used it though.
The Vectrex had an analog stick, yeah. And the Intellivision's discs were analog too. Analog ruled in the late 70s and early 80s....Pong machines, atari's video pinball, and the Colecovision, 2600 and 5200 even had seperate track ball controllers. I believe Coleco was the first to dish out a driving wheel too, with the Turbo module. I think only two games or so used it though.
quadriplegicjon said:
My biggest complaint with Nintendo's controllers is that they so rarely evolve them. Every Nintendo controller has some neat features and some irritating imperfections, but they seem to feel the need to reinvent the wheel every time rather than just making the wheel they already have better. Which results in a lot of neat-but-flawed controllers, whereas their competitors (and I'm thinking mainly about Sony and Microsoft here) gradually improve the same basic design, leading to highly polished controllers with the rough interaction edges taken off. Sometimes taking that to a bit of an extreme, particularly in Sony's case (I'd like to have seen tactile analogue triggers on the DS by now).
iapetus said:
"Sorry, Nintendo created the what now?"
Ahahaha. The Vectrex controller was exactly what I was thinking about when I mentioned gamepad shape, multiple buttons, and analog control not being Nintendo innovations. And you don't have to tell me about the futility of pointing out that Nintendo weren't the first to bring features to gaming that are often attributed to them. On a prior incarnation of this board a few years back I created a thread on "the myth of Nintendo as innovator" and promptly got flamed to a crisp by the Nintendo nutjob fringe. The ultimate fallback when you point out examples of others doing first what Nintendo gets credit for? "Well, Nintendo was responsible for making it popular!" Which I see has already reared its head in this thread.
Cold-Steel
Member
GAF still doesn't get it.
It's not who does it first, it's who takes the credit in the end that matters.
It's not who does it first, it's who takes the credit in the end that matters.
iapetus said:
That's exactly what I like about Nintendo's controllers, they actually have the balls to do something different each gen (even if they're not strictly the first to use each component).
And, for the record, I think that someone would have to be as stupid as a baby seal that just had it's skull crushed in to think of the DualShock2 as a polished controller. It is completely and totally devoid of any sort of ergonomic design whatsoever, and the only reason that gamers accept it is that they know nothing else. I, personally, was quite happy to see Sony show off a controller for the PS3 that actually had some sort of ergonomic thought put into it (while I, obviously, haven't held it, it sure looks more comfortable than a DS2, but then again, so does ripping off my skin and rolling around in salt), and yet everyone here still gave out, like only GAF can, for little reason (although you may claim otherwise) other than it looking different.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
WindyMan said:
10. Not Nintendo
9. Not Nintendo
8. Not Nintnedo (for cripes sakes, triggers predate the the freaking 2600, and have been around in variants before the NES)
7. Not Nintendo
6. Not Nintendo
5. Nintendo, depending on definition
4. Nintendo
3. ??? I don't know.
2. Nintendo -- thought I actually considere this a minus, since it replaced real joysticks as standards.
1. NOT FREAKING NINTENDO! Not by any definition you can muster. Not at all!
AndreasNystrom
Member
Wasnt Pong the first one to offer analog control?
edit : Yes it was.. 1974 Atari Pong.
edit : Yes it was.. 1974 Atari Pong.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
This list is also missing:
Trackball
Force-feedback wheels
Light guns
The first two being from Atari, the last one being a Max Baer invention, iirc.
If you ask me, the biggest innovator in videogames to date was Atari, largely by fact of getting there first. Up until 1990 or so, their games usually had excellent controls, and often very creative.
(btw, Intellivision discs were not analog)
More things of note:
Colecovision Super Action Controller:
Can't see it, but it has buttons and a wheel on top, too.
Astrocade controller (Joystick/Paddle combo with a trigger):
^^ This was one of the most creative controller designs ever, and predates the 2600 by about a year. Since a lot of games needer either paddles *or* a joystick, this controller could do both. It coould concievably handle an arcade game like Tron as well (though the system could never have handled that level of graphics).
Trackball
Force-feedback wheels
Light guns
The first two being from Atari, the last one being a Max Baer invention, iirc.
If you ask me, the biggest innovator in videogames to date was Atari, largely by fact of getting there first. Up until 1990 or so, their games usually had excellent controls, and often very creative.
(btw, Intellivision discs were not analog)
More things of note:
Colecovision Super Action Controller:
Can't see it, but it has buttons and a wheel on top, too.
Astrocade controller (Joystick/Paddle combo with a trigger):
^^ This was one of the most creative controller designs ever, and predates the 2600 by about a year. Since a lot of games needer either paddles *or* a joystick, this controller could do both. It coould concievably handle an arcade game like Tron as well (though the system could never have handled that level of graphics).
AndreasNystrom
Member
and dont forget Atari MINDCONTROL!
You played games by just thinking!
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/atari-mindlink-008975.php
You played games by just thinking!
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/atari-mindlink-008975.php
AndreasNystrom
Member
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
fuck breakaway cords. 3 different times i have said "shit where the fuck is the rest of the cable" after playing halo at other peoples houses...
Of All Trades
Member
I'm pretty sure MS had the PC force feedback joystick on the market prior to the rumble pak. There was also some sort of 3rd party FF chair or suit or something that came out during the SNES period.Ignatz Mouse said:
Atari.
Atari also had a touchscreen and memory cards first.
http://www.myatari.net/issues/may2001/photos/stpad.jpg
The n64 did have a lot of those features cramped into one thing like that god awful z trigger, shitty analog stick that felt more like a digital reject, alien shaped controller, shitty rumble, memcard onto the controller.. with all of these additions it is possible one of the worst contollers out there to date...
uhhh... the point is the trigger on a gun doesn't send a bullet flying with the slightest tap. you actually have to press it all the way down till the mechanism flicks over and releases the hammer. Or how on 6 shooters pulling the trigger actually turns the barrel and pulls and releases the hammer. The trigger on a gun is essentially analog in nature. You can apply varying degrees of pressure, that means it's analog.pjberri said:
AndreasNystrom
Member
btw, what about eyetoy?
I know it was made on the Amiga 3000 when i first saw this.
People played a game on a swedish televisionprogram, and was hiding from ballons
that came from the sky.
today we have the eyetoy.
I know it was made on the Amiga 3000 when i first saw this.
People played a game on a swedish televisionprogram, and was hiding from ballons
that came from the sky.
today we have the eyetoy.
Agent X
Member
Ignatz Mouse said:Astrocade controller (Joystick/Paddle combo with a trigger):
^^ This was one of the most creative controller designs ever, and predates the 2600 by about a year. Since a lot of games needer either paddles *or* a joystick, this controller could do both. It coould concievably handle an arcade game like Tron as well (though the system could never have handled that level of graphics).
I agree it was a really creative controller design, but I'm pretty sure the Astrocade wasn't released until early 1978, a few months after the 2600.
AndreasNystrom said:
I don't know if I'd count the Atari 2700, since it was never officially released. Cool controller design, though.
Atari's research on this wasn't totally wasted, as they eventually released wireless controllers for the existing 2600. One drawback of this design is that the base of the controller is absolutely enormous compared to that of the standard joystick controller.
Agent X said:I agree it was a really creative controller design, but I'm pretty sure the Astrocade wasn't released until early 1978, a few months after the 2600.
I don't know if I'd count the Atari 2700, since it was never officially released. Cool controller design, though.
Atari's research on this wasn't totally wasted, as they eventually released wireless controllers for the existing 2600. One drawback of this design is that the base of the controller is absolutely enormous compared to that of the standard joystick controller.
Wow I had no idea there were 2600 wireless controllers.
<looks at size of them>
How many kids did they kill with those things?
Nintendo gets more credit for this stuff because they were the first to offer a lot of those innovations in a clean efficient matter. Yeah they basically just improved what had already been done, but just saying that is a disservice. Sure trackballs and some old joysticks were analogue, but none of those designs were very useful in the long run. In fact, some of those designs might have made some people think it was impossible to get this type of control on a console and just forget it altogether
I'd say the overall "control pad" design that removed the joystick from fold was the greatest innovation of all, and I think that's Nintendo since they were the first to make the d-pad. And stacking more features on top of that design (triggers, analogue, rumble) that allowed for more gameplay while keeping it just as functional as the original A+B+Select+Start combo were also innovations in my book. Which includes the best replacement for the d-pad: the analogue stick
Hard to agree with the VMU being on that list though. Pretty worthless in the long run, unless you think hearing a long beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep every time you turn on the console an innovation
I'd say the overall "control pad" design that removed the joystick from fold was the greatest innovation of all, and I think that's Nintendo since they were the first to make the d-pad. And stacking more features on top of that design (triggers, analogue, rumble) that allowed for more gameplay while keeping it just as functional as the original A+B+Select+Start combo were also innovations in my book. Which includes the best replacement for the d-pad: the analogue stick
Hard to agree with the VMU being on that list though. Pretty worthless in the long run, unless you think hearing a long beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep every time you turn on the console an innovation
AndreasNystrom
Member
bah, so old flightsticks on my PC (way before nintendo had an analog joystick out) was crap in your eyes?.. like the F16 replica-joystick?..
ok...
ok...
dammitmattt
Banned
Anyone with large dogs, small children, or idiotic friends knows how great the breakaway cord is on the Xbox controllers.
Sapienshomo said:
The VMU was nothing but a Tamagochi unit with memory card functions and stuck in a controller. What interesting, the Tamagochi itself pre-dates the VMU by a huge mile. The same can be said Pocketstation. Also the Pocketstation itself was much better than the VMU because it had "extra" function that did interesting things.
I think the issue is whether the article should be heralding innovations or trendsetters.
Nintendo has been the trendsetter for nearly all gaming controls from 1985 onward. This doesn't mean that they came up with an idea first, nor that they developed the best model of a concept, but that their design choices influenced the rest of the industry.
If you're only talking about innovations and new concepts, most of that list would be ignored. The most groundbreaking developments (NOT the most sucessful, mind you) would include things like three dimensional displays, voice response systems, video footage games, etc.. Things that were uniquely new and changed the potential for future game development. The Taiko drum, dance pads, and the like are more "ground breaking" than anything on the list, but they aren't really going to change the nature of basic controller design.
Anyway, as far as the list goes...
10. The VMU
Essentially useless. Nice idea, but unimportant to the industry at this point.
9. The Turbo Button
In as much as it appears in countless 3rd party controllers, this would seem to be a genuine trend setter.
8. Triggers
I'm not sure this is ground breaking, but Nintendo and Sega did establish it as a standard feature. Nintendo presented the concept of a button which could be used -as- a trigger (pull) on a home controller, Sega refined it into what is the more basic shape used in the industry today.
7. Breakaway Cord
Nice idea, but it's not going to be a trend setter.
6. Multiple Face Buttons
Considering the fact that MIT had multiple button joysticks back in the 60's, I'm not sure how this is an innovation any more than joysticks as a whole are.
5. Shoulder Buttons
Yeah. Nintendo wins on this one. Everybody does it now, and it was a truly original idea.
4. Rumble/Force Feedback
Another thing that Nintendo didn't invent, but they did establish as an industry standard.
3. Wireless
See item #4. Many companies had wireless controllers before the Wavebird, but Nintendo managed to make the thing work well and sell well. Now it's gone from a quirky side product to a major seller.
2. The D-Pad
The joypad ("D-Pad" -- bah!) is one of the few things that's a genuine Nintendo invention, as far as I can tell. Everyone uses it, although there is a chance it will vanish at some point in the near future.
1. Analog Control
IGN clearly meant "analog thumbstick" -- not "analog control". If we limit their jabberings to mean "analog thumbstick", Nintendo did create the idea. Analog joysticks were around before, but the notion of creating an analog parallel to the joypad was the innovation.
Nintendo has been the trendsetter for nearly all gaming controls from 1985 onward. This doesn't mean that they came up with an idea first, nor that they developed the best model of a concept, but that their design choices influenced the rest of the industry.
If you're only talking about innovations and new concepts, most of that list would be ignored. The most groundbreaking developments (NOT the most sucessful, mind you) would include things like three dimensional displays, voice response systems, video footage games, etc.. Things that were uniquely new and changed the potential for future game development. The Taiko drum, dance pads, and the like are more "ground breaking" than anything on the list, but they aren't really going to change the nature of basic controller design.
Anyway, as far as the list goes...
10. The VMU
Essentially useless. Nice idea, but unimportant to the industry at this point.
9. The Turbo Button
In as much as it appears in countless 3rd party controllers, this would seem to be a genuine trend setter.
8. Triggers
I'm not sure this is ground breaking, but Nintendo and Sega did establish it as a standard feature. Nintendo presented the concept of a button which could be used -as- a trigger (pull) on a home controller, Sega refined it into what is the more basic shape used in the industry today.
7. Breakaway Cord
Nice idea, but it's not going to be a trend setter.
6. Multiple Face Buttons
Considering the fact that MIT had multiple button joysticks back in the 60's, I'm not sure how this is an innovation any more than joysticks as a whole are.
5. Shoulder Buttons
Yeah. Nintendo wins on this one. Everybody does it now, and it was a truly original idea.
4. Rumble/Force Feedback
Another thing that Nintendo didn't invent, but they did establish as an industry standard.
3. Wireless
See item #4. Many companies had wireless controllers before the Wavebird, but Nintendo managed to make the thing work well and sell well. Now it's gone from a quirky side product to a major seller.
2. The D-Pad
The joypad ("D-Pad" -- bah!) is one of the few things that's a genuine Nintendo invention, as far as I can tell. Everyone uses it, although there is a chance it will vanish at some point in the near future.
1. Analog Control
IGN clearly meant "analog thumbstick" -- not "analog control". If we limit their jabberings to mean "analog thumbstick", Nintendo did create the idea. Analog joysticks were around before, but the notion of creating an analog parallel to the joypad was the innovation.
Okay, this is a very blind and skewed perspective. Sorry, but there were hardly thumbsticks before N64, let alone a way to control a free-roaming 3D platformer. Nintendo created that for their software. And it wasn't by itself. It was applied to the modern controller. Similarly, Bongo drums have been around since before videogames, but Jungle Beat is one of the most innovative console game in years. Touchscreens, microphones and even multiple screens have been around forever, but not in one unit with 3D graphics and the kind of software DS has. Sorry, it's innovative. With comments like yours, one would think that since the early 80's, you've sat your videogame hardware on a shelf to look at rather than play games with.
Agent X
Member
Drensch said:
If you're referring to the early video game systems, then I can assure you from first-hand experience that the Atari 2600 paddles, the Atari 5200 joysticks, and the Atari 5200 Trak-Balls all featured true analog control (on the knob/stick/ball, not the buttons), and there were plenty of games that supported the analog sensitivities.
Let's take the example of a game like Pong. You move your paddle along a vertical path, but it is essential that you are able to quickly move to any point along that path in order to deflect the ball that's headed toward you. You could play a game like this with a digital joystick or joypad, but an analog paddle provides much better control because you can spin the knob quickly to swing from one side of the playfield to the other in the blink of an eye. Or, you can just stop at some point in between if you need to. You really need to play the game to understand this. If Pong is too hard for you to find, then you could also try Breakout, which is derived from Pong and has the same type of control (but moving horizontally on the screen rather than vertically), or some other derivative such as Arkanoid.
A large number of the early dedicated video game systems of the 1970s (the ones with games built in, rather than sold separately) had one or more Pong-like games on them, and almost all of them provided either knobs (like the ones on the Atari 2600 paddles) or a slider, which were analog for the very reason I described above. With that in mind, if you bought a video game system in the 1970s, it's actually more likely that analog control was available than not.