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Apple ordered to pay Ireland €13bn in Taxes

AJUMP23

AJUMP23

Parody of actual AJUMP23
Bojji said:
It's not, it's just pure speculation.

Their revenue for 2023 was $383.285B
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While I agree it is an inflated value it is still what it is. The company can issue shares and sell them at an inflated price to cover the judgement.
 
NecrosaroIII

NecrosaroIII

Ultimate DQ Fan
Doczu said:
Jesus Christ what have the Irish done to you??
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leprechaun-gif-17.gif
 
ReBurn

ReBurn

Gold Member
ZehDon said:
And they'll waste years and millions on appeals before finally paying a decade from now.

Cool.
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This case has been going on for eight years. Apple has already wasted years and millions fighting it to the highest court they can. The money will now be released to Ireland from escrow and Apple will take a $10 billion charge in September, probably somewhat muting the impact of the iPhone 16 launch.

The case wasn't as much against Apple as it was against Ireland. The EU said that tax breaks Ireland gave Apple were illegal and this ruling requires that Ireland collect the taxes from Apple.
 
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D

Days like these...

Have a Blessed Day
ReBurn said:
This case has been going on for eight years. Apple has already wasted years and millions fighting it to the highest court they can. The money will now be released to Ireland from escrow and Apple will take a $10 billion charge in September, probably somewhat muting the impact of the iPhone 16 launch.

The case wasn't as much against Apple as it was against Ireland. The EU said that tax breaks Ireland gave Apple were illegal and this ruling requires that Ireland collect the taxes from Apple.
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Apple is playing 4d chess. The other €3bn they're going to make up by sticking with 60 hz screens on the peasant model iPhones and the same 3 year old main camera sensor on the pro max.
 
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Mistake

Mistake

Member
nightmare-slain said:
Maybe on paper and by the books but Apple will make it up somehow. Either they threaten to leave or Ireland sucks up to them.
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Ireland is going to hell, pretty sure they're more interested in the money atm, which in turn will make more companies leave eventually
 
D

Days like these...

Have a Blessed Day
nightmare-slain said:
Maybe on paper and by the books but Apple will make it up somehow. Either they threaten to leave or Ireland sucks up to them.
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I already posted how they're making it up. Sticking with ancient 60hz screens on the peasant iphone models and the same main camera sensor in the 16 pro that they've been using since the 14 pro. This is how they will make up the €3bn in addition to the €10bn write off.

Even if they threaten to leave or go through with it Ireland can't tell the courts we don't want the money because they're threatening to pull out.
 
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Cyberpunkd

Cyberpunkd

Member
ReBurn said:
Apple told to pay Ireland billions in taxes that Ireland didn't want in the first place.
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Yes, because then Irish government made this arrangement on purpose to attract foreign companies knowing very well at some point in the future the EU will fix it, but at that moment they got nice brownie points.
 
6502

6502

Member
Good. Companies should pay their taxes. Now I hope the EU go after those "franchise / IP" charges they use to avoid taxes in countries they operate in.

The whole "we are so big we will leave and who will sell you coffee?" Type arguments only show how bad allowing these large monopolies to develop is. Call their bluff and give them the choice, pay up or leave a profitable market and allow more moral companies to swoop in and make money whilst playing by the rules.
 
ReBurn

ReBurn

Gold Member
Cyberpunkd said:
Yes, because then Irish government made this arrangement on purpose to attract foreign companies knowing very well at some point in the future the EU will fix it, but at that moment they got nice brownie points.
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I'm not sure Ireland wanted this fixed. From a corporate investment perspective Ireland has worked to make themselves one of the most attractive countries in Western Europe for large corporations to invest in, and they've purposely done that by offering tax incentives to large corporations to get the jobs, money and economic stimulus they bring.

I don't want to get too far into politics, so at an high level Ireland was against this decision by the EU commission because it harms a cornerstone of their independence and economic model. They didn't want to have to collect these taxes because it puts them at risk of large multinational companies pulling out and basing somewhere outside of the EU. Apple has their EMEA operations based in Ireland and it's possible they could get better economic posture in the Middle East or Africa. This decision doesn't help smaller businesses get fair terms as the commission expresses because it only focuses on taxes and not total economic impact. It really just makes it harder for Ireland to remain a destination for large multinational companies to base their European operations from.
 
diffusionx

diffusionx

Gold Member
ReBurn said:
This case has been going on for eight years. Apple has already wasted years and millions fighting it to the highest court they can. The money will now be released to Ireland from escrow and Apple will take a $10 billion charge in September, probably somewhat muting the impact of the iPhone 16 launch.

The case wasn't as much against Apple as it was against Ireland. The EU said that tax breaks Ireland gave Apple were illegal and this ruling requires that Ireland collect the taxes from Apple.
Click to expand...
It's just bizarre that the EU gets to decide how Ireland can levy taxes on operations in its own borders, in its own country.

In the USA, state governments have wide latitude to levy taxes as they see fit. State governments can and do use lowered taxes as incentives to get companies to move their operations, which has been very successful for places like Texas, Alabama, Florida, the Carolinas, and Tennessee.
 
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AJUMP23

AJUMP23

Parody of actual AJUMP23
diffusionx said:
It's just bizarre that the EU gets to decide how Ireland can levy taxes on operations in its own borders, in its own country.

In the USA, state governments have wide latitude to levy taxes as they see fit. State governments can and do use lowered taxes as incentives to get companies to move their operations, which has been very successful for places like Texas, Alabama, Florida, the Carolinas, and Tennessee.
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You left out Delaware.

 
ScHlAuChi

ScHlAuChi

Member
diffusionx said:
It's just bizarre that the EU gets to decide how Ireland can levy taxes on operations in its own borders, in its own country.
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It´s just bizarre that you think one can join the EU and have all the advantages that come with it but not have to follow their rules?
If Ireland wasnt in the EU, none of those US tech companies would have set up their HQ there anyway!
 
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diffusionx

diffusionx

Gold Member
ScHlAuChi said:
It´s bizarre that you think one can join the EU and have all the advantages that come with it but not have to follow rules?
If Ireland wasnt in the EU, none of those US tech companies would have set up their HQ there anyway!
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Ahh, the EU and their rules. They love nothing more than rules, even national sovereignty.

Just call it a rule, it's a justification for anything. The rule can be good or bad, it doesn't matter, as long as it is a rule.
 
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ScHlAuChi

ScHlAuChi

Member
diffusionx said:
Ahh, the EU and their rules. They love nothing more than rules, even national sovereignty.
Just call it a rule, it's a justification for anything. The rule can be good or bad, it doesn't matter, as long as it is a rule.
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What sort of dumb argument is that? I dont like a rule so I can break it?
Ireland voluntarely joined the EU and agreed to adhere to its rules - if they didnt like those rules they could have stayed out or left like the UK did.
If everyone just ignored the rules they dont like we would have anarchy!
 
ReBurn

ReBurn

Gold Member
diffusionx said:
Ahh, the EU and their rules. They love nothing more than rules, even national sovereignty.

Just call it a rule, it's a justification for anything. The rule can be good or bad, it doesn't matter, as long as it is a rule.
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The EU, in principle at least, makes sense. It gives a collective of mostly small countries with small economies a unified voice on the world stage. With it comes an agreement to allow the EU governance to supersede the law of member countries in the best interest of all members.

This Apple thing is a special case because it involves agreements that were in force before these EU rules were in effect. Ireland and Apple are arguing that because their arrangement predates the EU rules that the EU should not be able to make Ireland collect taxes in a retroactive fashion. With this ruling the EU has asserted that they can do it. It will probably lead to other tax arrangements in Ireland being reviewed for back taxes as well and Ireland wanted to avoid that.
 
ScHlAuChi

ScHlAuChi

Member
ReBurn said:
This Apple thing is a special case because it involves agreements that were in force before these EU rules were in effect. Ireland and Apple are arguing that because their arrangement predates the EU rules that the EU should not be able to make Ireland collect taxes in a retroactive fashion. With this ruling the EU has asserted that they can do it.
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Sorry, but that is not correct, those laws always existed, the question was if they could be applied to this case as Apple basically had "stateless" profits
There is a detailed writeup here:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-16/the-inside-story-of-apple-s-14-billion-tax-bill

ReBurn said:
It will probably lead to other tax arrangements in Ireland being reviewed for back taxes as well and Ireland wanted to avoid that.
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That has already happend when Ireland adopted the OECD standard rate of 15%:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58832429
 
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Cyberpunkd

Cyberpunkd

Member
ReBurn said:
I'm not sure Ireland wanted this fixed.
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They 100% didn't. Tough shit.
diffusionx said:
It's just bizarre that the EU gets to decide how Ireland can levy taxes on operations in its own borders, in its own country.
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If you are a member of the EU you play by EU rules. EU also forces all the member states to negotiate as a block (450 million citizens), not as separate countries (Ireland - 5 million). This allows all member states to get much better conditions, since it's impossible to bully a "country" of 450 million people. It's the only way many countries in Europe can survive while negotiating with US/Russia. In Europe we have a saying that the tragedy of Germany is being too big for the EU, too small for the world.
 
SantaBanana

SantaBanana

Member
An irish friend of mine worked there with his wife. There was a while they tried to make them pay their own taxes on the salary rather than paying them as a part of their salary. One of their coworkers successfully sued to stop them, but it was a rough legal battle and unsurprisingly she quit not too long after. A lot of shady stuff going on there
 
TTOOLL

TTOOLL

Member
AJUMP23 said:
While I agree it is an inflated value it is still what it is. The company can issue shares and sell them at an inflated price to cover the judgement.
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I don't think it's that easy, is it? Anyway, it's Apple.
 
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