it will
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Apple Pay now available in UK
- Thread starter Chittagong
- Start date
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it will
DOWN
Banned
Would be a horrifyingly flawed idea if it couldn't function through a case. You don't even need to touch the device to a properly working terminal. Should work if you just get it within a few inches.
DOWN
Banned
Yes, though, for the paired Watch you can use it freely.
Jill Sandwich
the turds of Optimus Prime
I used it at Greggs which isn't on the list so I assume it's all contactless terminals.
Apple *do* know which retailers are allowed to operate Apple Pay terminals and can terminate that at any time, based on any arbitrary criteria.
Given the vast majority of Apple Pay's user base will likely never own an Apple Watch that's not terribly relevant. But the watch has famously bad battery life.
It's not broken at all - the max liability is £60, and a bank will automatically refund that. Apple Pay on the Watch doesn't require the passcode except in exceptional circumstances, and in the exact same circumstances using a contact card will ask for your pin. So there's no security advantage at all between a watch and a card in favour of the watch. But the card, by virtue of not running an internet connected general purpose OS, has a much, much, much smaller attack surface.
Jill Sandwich
the turds of Optimus Prime
Famously bad as in everyone who owns one says it performs much better than Apple's estimates (I get twice as much time than I expected), or bad compared to Fitbits and Pebble Times?
CadetMahoney
Member
Are there any caveats like "as long as you reported it stolen before any money was used, otherwise tough shit"?
any retailer... Apple is just surrounding it's fancy trademark around standard NFC.
The two benefits I can see to this over just using your contactless are
not having to take out your wallet (for men in the US, like a 2-3 second savings.. for women, ~6 minutes worth of digging in their purse)
use of a DAN instead of your actual card number for the transaction. The DAN on iPhone and Apple Watch are unique account numbers. So even if they were stolen during the transaction, it's impossible for them to ever be used.
this is a flat out lie. Stop making shit up. There is no such thing as "Apple Pay" technology. It's standard NFC. The only retailers Apple "knows" about are the ones the have marketing arrangements in place with, and it's simply that.. marketing. Anyone that supports contactless payments supports this. They don't even really have an option, as theirs no way to know the transaction is coming from an Apple device or any other NFC device.
donkey show
Member
Have my US Amex and other US cards hooked up awhile back. Still waiting on Barclays to give the green light. Thankfully they reneged on their initial stance to not support it.
Jill Sandwich
the turds of Optimus Prime
Well the NFC stuff is only part of it, the other part is the frictionless online payment system that uses Touch ID for faster checkout.
Twice Apple's estimates is still about three hundred times too poor for a watch?
Jill Sandwich
the turds of Optimus Prime
For a regular watch, sure. I really don't know what battery life you're expecting today for cramming that tech into something that small. I can see it irks you, fair enough, horses for courses. It's been no worry for me.
As long as reported within a day of loss.
NFC is only the transmission standard, not the entire chain. It's not standardised contactless, because otherwise the Apple tokenisaiton of the CC number wouldn't work. That requires Apple's enablement on the backend, which they could withdraw.
They can't disable specific terminals unless the specific terminals disable NFC altogether. The tokenization of the CC number just generates a dynamic number that looks like a CC number that will be accepted by the terminal, and verified by the card issuer on the backend. Apple cannot disable the terminal unless the card issuer disables the terminal.
infiniteloop
Member
source on Apple "terminating Apple Pay terminals"? Laughable claim.
You are expecting a 1 year battery life for a smart watch?
So far working on all contact less terminals. Pubs, bakers, etc Have Apple spoken to every retailer? Even independents?
yes, you are absolutely right. I was just referring to contactless payments. But yes online payments in apps actually may be a bigger benefit to UK users. Sadly in the US it's still too much miss. Target for example only let's you buy a single line item with Touch ID. Use a shopping cart instead and you're forced to login/pay through their site/service.
We don't have oyster cards on buses here. Buses are cash only. Don't think train ticket machines here have a contactless option but i may be wrong
Wait, when did London buses become cash only?
Interesting, how do you know? I thought this used the existing contactless infrastructure (for UK).
ffs. fucking stop. The tokenization has been apart of the contactless standard for over a year now. There is nothing on "apple's backend". Your phone generates a DAN locally, contacts your CC/debit bank to register that DAN and key, your bank says "yup, that's cool", and your phone/watch now work as a credit card. They don't even need an internet connection as the DAN/encryption are done locally on the device and the retailer is the one that has to do the authorization charge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token..._-_ANSI.2C_the_PCI_Council.2C_Visa.2C_and_EMV
Just stop making up shit for the love of fucking god. You don't know what you are talking about and literally are making up shit as you go.
he is completely making up bullshit as he continues in this thread. It's fucking embarrassing.
yeah, there is no such thing as an "Apple Pay terminal". Apple Pay "at stores" is simply marketing. Not sure on the arrangements in place. "Launch retailers" in the US like Walgreens already had NFC for a couple years. Same terminals and everything. The only difference was a little sticker on the entrances with the Apple Pay logo. I'd guess the arrangement is something along the line of Apple helping pay for the NFC rollout cost for a retailer in exchange for having to promote Apple Pay at the point of sale. Seems the most likely agreement.
Some stuff I read in the thread that I wanted to comment on but probably doesn't fit in the conversation now, but whatever.
You can make any purchase up to £20 (soon to be increased to £30) three times in a row via contactless payment, but then the next time you use your card you have to enter your PIN (presumably the same for Apple Pay). This is to prevent someone stealing/finding your card and going on a spending spree with it without having to enter a PIN to authorise the payment. Presumably this restriction will be lifted in future for Apple Pay due to the authorisation from your phone via fingerprint etc.
TfL have traditionally been against the idea of your Oyster card being incorporated into another object (bracelets, watches etc) and have threatened to fine anyone doing so. They used to have a credit card with a built in Oyster card but this was abolished once they started taking contactless payments due to card clash. Despite TfL accepting Apple Pay at stations/buses I don't think I've seen any plans to allow your actual Oyster account with a season ticket etc to be input into Apple Pay. Would be good if so, but I wouldn't hold out hope.
London buses actually have become cash-free a little over a year ago, they only accept Oyster or contactless payment cards. You can no longer pay by cash. I'm guessing that iMax doesn't live in London and is commenting on buses in his/her local area.
You can make any purchase up to £20 (soon to be increased to £30) three times in a row via contactless payment, but then the next time you use your card you have to enter your PIN (presumably the same for Apple Pay). This is to prevent someone stealing/finding your card and going on a spending spree with it without having to enter a PIN to authorise the payment. Presumably this restriction will be lifted in future for Apple Pay due to the authorisation from your phone via fingerprint etc.
TfL have traditionally been against the idea of your Oyster card being incorporated into another object (bracelets, watches etc) and have threatened to fine anyone doing so. They used to have a credit card with a built in Oyster card but this was abolished once they started taking contactless payments due to card clash. Despite TfL accepting Apple Pay at stations/buses I don't think I've seen any plans to allow your actual Oyster account with a season ticket etc to be input into Apple Pay. Would be good if so, but I wouldn't hold out hope.
London buses actually have become cash-free a little over a year ago, they only accept Oyster or contactless payment cards. You can no longer pay by cash. I'm guessing that iMax doesn't live in London and is commenting on buses in his/her local area.
Is this the same case with the Watch?
contactless is rolling out very rapidly now. I think this is of limited value when embedded on a phone, as getting a phone out of your pocket and unlocking with a fingerprint sounds slower and more cumbersome than grabbing your contactless debit card, but with a watch that sounds pretty good.
There aren't enough stores that support this that you could safely go shopping without your wallet yet, but it is a cute alternative for those regular shops you know.
Apple watch is still too expensive, but for using on the underground, that is almost the best use case I've heard to justify one. As with Chittagong I have a drawer full of oyster cards. The ability to use a debit card is very welcome, and an apple watch is just that much more convenient if you're going back and forth on the underground a lot.
Shows how much attention I was paying, I thought he said cashless or something, hence my just over a year ago comment.
I use the watch all the time.. admittedly I actually tap the terminal.. not sure how far I could be with it still working. I really don't think a few inches is right though. but within an inch is probably a better statement. But yes, in the US the quality of the terminal plays a factor.. there's one type of terminal (used at Subway Restaurants here) that I set my phone/watch RIGHT ON the damn thing and the phone says "please touch your iPhone to the terminal". Mind you it already sensed the terminal because it brought up Apple Pay to begin with...... At that point I have to start the whole payment process again... But that is the exception. Most terminals are flawless and instant... So far it just seems to be that specific Verifone model at some Subways by my personal experience.
No, the guy I quoted said they don't take oyster cards. Last time I checked, they do!
Oops, sorry, I meant to say Carl (the guy you quoted) probably doesn't live in London, not you!
We should all start again hahaha!
PipefishUK
Banned
Is that true? Or is it three times within a certain time limit? Because I make loads of small transactions and sometimes use contactless exclusively for days at a time - many more than three times in a row - it's never asked me for my PIN.
That said, I think Apple pay is a bit of a gimmick and contactless cards are better. I don't think the security is anything to worry about on cards.
You have to hold the card right up to the terminal to use it, technically someone could set up some wide area RFID scanner and steal a load of money, but that's not very likely and no one has done it yet. If you're worried about that just get a shielded wallet?
If your card got nicked, you'd report it straight away and it would be cancelled. I believe in the UK that the protections are the same as with credit cards and you get your money back as long as it isn't your fault?
Anyway, if you got mugged - couldn't they steal your phone AND watch and do the same thing? If the system is the same for small transactions (under £20) with no authentication...
Edit: Wait... It's a separate app on the watch? Working independently from the phone? So that means the security level is exactly the same as a contactless card if you use the watch?
I'm not slating it, just seems a bit pointless and gimmicky to me - it's personal preference.
I can't see it taking off in the UK, except for with die hard apple fans. Contactless is already everywhere and got a massive head start. (People saying contactless has low adoption rates? Are you blind?)
You're right, there are no plans to put load your season tickets and Oyster accounts to Apple Pay. It's simply just a "simple" payment method that TFL won't have to administer that uses the Oyster Pay As You Go pricing structure.
infiniteloop
Member
With a card, your data is stored by the vendor. Someone gets into that data, they have your name + card number. Using Apple Pay, your data is not stored with the vendor.
PipefishUK
Banned
Like when you see old people getting on the bus and placing their (NFC) bus pass on top of the terminal then looking at the bus driver and smiling for approval - each one taking 30 seconds for a 2 second transaction
actually the transmission of card data is 100% secure between the device/card and terminal. The problem then comes that the terminal, in the case of an actual card, then has your card number (and secure token) to transmit (and potentially store) on their system. This is how the numerous credit card breaches happened in the US. The consumers didn't do ANYTHING wrong/insecure. It was the retailer that was hacked. In the case of a secure element, a DAN token is used. Basically a fake card number authorized with your bank. That card number can ONLY be used with the security key on your device, both of which only exist on the device. So if a retailer was breached, the thieves would have no way of using that card number.
on iPhone you have to either use your finger print, or enter your phone unlock code to authorize the purchase. On Apple Watch the Watch has to be unlocked and "worn" to activate Apple Pay. In both cases if the thief stole your devices, they'd have no way of actually using them to pay (or at all, provided they are locked and have Find My iPhone enabled). So technically it's more secure than a card, which can still physically be used for small purchases before it's canceled.
infiniteloop
Member
Good idea to read the thread first.
Chittagong
Gold Member
It was the worst kind of corporate me-too project. Probably started fairly visionary 4 years ago, then went through reams of red tape and committees, and by the time they launched it it was the laughing stock.
You know what the absolute most cringeworthy thing is? It's the employees loyal to the company who have been cheerleading the product, somehow convincing themselves that it has a shot in the market.
Definitive answer: same phone, same case, and I use it whenever I can. It works.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
That's why I love Apple Pay. Convenient sure (versus digging thru my wallet for which card I want to use), but mostly for security. They knocked it out of the park with this, which the anti-Apple crowd can't fucking stand to admit.
Oranges are everywhere, therefore bananas are shit.
Ravensmash
Member
What about the band they've released?
That's £25 and provides the same ease of use as the smart watch, without the need for an iPhone.
I ask because I'm tempted by one.
It's insecure, limited to £20 everywhere (£30 in September), is another band to wear, and solely exists so they can take an extra cut for themselves.
"In terms of paying for things in shops it has no significant advantage compared to using a contactless bank card".
So yeah, even technically inclined people think it's pointless.
I guess if you were the sort of person who had like 15 cards in his wallet and wanted an easier way to manage that it might be useful? But most people don't have that, I think.
infiniteloop
Member
As has been pointed out many times in this thread, Apple Pay is more secure as it doesn't store your name/card number with the merchant.
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