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[rdrr gnr]

...

..........

really?

His implication is that if the differences aren't profoundly noticeable (not that they don't exist) it then does not constitute a 'generational leap.'

It would be hard to do argue that the same mistake could be made between, say, first year PS2 titles and current PS3 exclusives.

 

[KKRT00]

xbox morrowind to oblivion (let alone skyrim) was a generational leap.
any tomb raider PS2 to Uncharted is a generational leap.
Gow2 to Gow3, GT4 to GT5, PGR2 to PGR4.

when seen in youtube video form it's hard to tell PC and console versions of Battlefield 3 apart; that's not a generational leap.

To me, next gen leap means something that just couldn't be done before, graphics 'built' from the ground up in a way that just wasn't possible before.
Not just higher res textures and better IQ.

Its diminishing returns - consoles are quite powerful to render nice graphics, but not powerful enough to render it properly, thats why You have awful IQ, awful lod streaming systems, awful textures etc.
And when You compare raw processing power than PS3 is like 10-12 faster than PS2.
On PC You have the same game [like BF 3] in almost twice higher resolution, in double the framerates [its already at least 4 times stronger than PS3], with more than twice as many players, with much bigger maps, better LOD, better textures, better particles, more effects etc. PC are already using more than 8 times power of current gen consoles efficiently. It is generation leap, it has to be, we are 7 years in current gen, it would be stupid to not to be there.

 

[benny_a]

Ubersampling! That's what I meant (I nearly put 'the red setting').

What do we mean by 'close'? The difference between the 360 and PC version will probably be larger than the discrepancies in any multi-plat 360 / PS3 game. Surely the 360 version will be 720p (at best) and 30FPS (at best)?

Yeah, it's going to be larger than the discrepancies between multi-plat games on 360 or PS3.
That doesn't make it a generational leap though.

I feel I frequent those console comparison threads quite a bit and never have I seen a serious case being made that for example Red Dead Redemption is a generational leap better on 360 than on PS3 because of more bushes.

On PC You have the same game [like BF 3] in almost twice higher resolution, in double the framerates [its already at least 4 times stronger than PS3], with more than twice as many players, with much bigger maps, better LOD, better textures, better particles, more effects etc. PC are already using more than 8 times power of current gen consoles efficiently. It is generation leap, it has to be, we are 7 years in current gen, it would be stupid to not to be there.

and then we have John Carmack saying how all that processing power is wasted compared to consoles even though a modern gaming PC is a magnitude more powerful than a current-gen console. The output is not a magnitude different though, IMO. In this thread many people obviously disagree.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Ubersampling! That's what I meant (I nearly put 'the red setting').

What do we mean by 'close'? The difference between the 360 and PC version will probably be larger than the discrepancies in any multi-plat 360 / PS3 game. Surely the 360 version will be 720p (at best) and 30FPS (at best)?

When people post the comparison shots, seriously I have to scrutinize them to figure out which is which. I imagine it will be more obvious in motion, but really, they look like the same game. Naturally, the PC version is quite nice, but its not like Modern Warfare 3 Xbox 360 vs. Modern Warfare Wii (with the Wii basically being a last gen system). Don't get me wrong, Witcher 2 looks pretty damn sweet.

 

[mxgt]

The games aren't (except games like TW2 specifically made for PC) but the hardware most definitely is and still will be when the next gen of consoles are released.

 

[SparkTR]

Actually, those pics of the Xbox version of Witcher 2 are pretty close mang.

I'm pretty sure they're both from the PC version, just at difference graphics settings.

 

[rdrr gnr]

The games aren't (except games like TW2 specifically made for PC) but the hardware most definitely is and still will be when the next gen of consoles are released.

iirc, Witcher 2 and its engine were designed, in some part, to be console (360) friendly?

 

[Log4Girlz]

I'm pretty sure they're both from the PC version, just at difference graphics settings. I remember Gamingbolt said as much.

Ahh. Ok we'll see. I just don't see the need to complete re-design the engine for it to run in some recognizable fashion on the 360. That's what usually comes to mind when I think "full generational leap".

 

[SmokyDave]

Ahh. Ok we'll see. I just don't see the need to complete re-design the engine for it to run in some recognizable fashion on the 360. That's what usually comes to mind when I think "full generational leap".

Yeah, I guess. I was thinking fairly simply (The Witcher 2 as it appears on my PC absolutely could not be done on 360 / PS3 = Generational leap). I guess there's much more to a generational leap for most people.

 

[Luthos]

I think people are expecting too much from the upcoming consoles.

I don't expect it, but I fantasize about Samaritan demo being standard.

@_@ it would be glorious...

 

[KKRT00]

and then we have John Carmack saying how all that processing power is wasted compared to consoles even though a modern gaming PC is a magnitude more powerful than a current-gen console. The output is not a magnitude different though, IMO. In this thread many people obviously disagree.

Only like 30% processing power is 'lost' because of API overhead, its usually closer to 15-20%.

Anyone who thinks that just 30->60fps boost and 720p->1080p requires less than 4 times of raw performance of current consoles is also wrong.

Also next gen wont be about 'revolutionizing' graphics like this one, it will be shader based, it will have strong focus on GPGPU and DX 11 features. It will be about iterating, learning how to use tessellation properly and removing bottlenecks. It wont be about testing voxels or ray tracing.

My prediction for next-gen hardware is 3x faster CPU than current gen and smth like 560/6870 as gpu, so machine 8-10 times faster than current gen, but still quite known and energy efficient and not that expensive, yet still capable of rendering something like Samaritan demo with proper optimization.

I don't expect it, but I fantasize about Samaritan demo being standard.

@_@ it would be glorious...

And it will be.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Ubersampling! That's what I meant (I nearly put 'the red setting').

What do we mean by 'close'? The difference between the 360 and PC version will probably be larger than the discrepancies in any multi-plat 360 / PS3 game. Surely the 360 version will be 720p (at best) and 30FPS (at best)?

I agree it's larger than the difference between the PS3 and 360 ports of any given game, but there is a very large gulf between that and the difference between a PS2 and a PS3 game. On one end of the spectrum, PS3/360 multiplatform games are usually almost identical, sometimes the PS3 version gets V-Synch while the 360 version gets something else that the PS3 doesn't. On the other end of the scale, you have things like Splinter Cell 3 on XBOX, which was so far beyond the PS2 version that it didn't even share the same level design. From what I've seen so far, TW2 on 360 isn't looking to be that big of a difference.

These days, the PC versions are seeming to be less 'next gen game' and more 'HD remake of current gen game'. Rock solid framerates, high resolution and applied AA/AF. The impression of "next generation-ness" comes from new effects, new assets, greatly improved lighting, higher poly models... etc.

 

[AzureNightmare]

Now post a scan of the polygraph test showing you are not a liar and also a scan of your eye exam test. Gears 3 is one of the best looking games to date. You posting a picture of the box does not disprove this.

You should really have your eyes checked and I'm not even being snarky or smartass about it. Some glasses will make you see things in a whole new light.

 

[kharak]

I don't expect it, but I fantasize about Samaritan demo being standard.

@_@ it would be glorious...

tri sli 580gtx standard? $1000 for console standard?

 

[benny_a]

Only like 30% processing power is 'lost' because of API overhead, its usually closer to 15-20%.

His main issues, IIRC, were not only the APIs but also the drivers.

I also agree with your prediction. One always dreams of more, but it'll do more than a PC at the same spec.
I just hope they increase the RAM to levels where developers have much more options again.
And if they have too much they can hopefully pre-load stuff and get rid of loading. I hope next-gen loading screens, past the initial loading, will be gone in the majority of games.

 

[Corky]

It's a comparison where people wont accept any answer on. What's the point of trying to come to grips if there is actually a generational leap of difference between games when the game you are scrutinizing is a multiplatform game?

If you take everything into consideration, software distribution/performance/Image quality/"moddability" then yes PC games are a generation ahead.

But if people are going to compare 360 bf3 to pc bf3 then it's a moot point, since people are apparently blind to the visual differences and performance doesn't seem to matter to some people regardless.

 

[KKRT00]

His main issues, IIRC, were not only the APIs but also the drivers.

Drivers are part of API ;]

tri sli 580gtx standard? $1000 for console standard?

If only there would exist something like optimization...

 

[Jtrizzy]

Fly around Davamand Peak in the recon helicopter or base jump in 1080p/60 with everything on Ultra, then try it on PS3. Screenshots really don't convey the difference. Also go check out the burning 18 wheeler in the tunnel.

Frame rate is so huge though. All the great effects are pretty worthless when running at 720 in some cases less, and sub 30 fps in pretty much all console games.

 

[kharak]

If only there would exist something like magic...

If only...

 

[Almighty]

Well since this thread is still going strong.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of the games people are talking about in this thread were either designed for consoles first then ported or in the Witcher 2 case designed with a console port in mind. So I don't think you will find a full generational leap comparing them. I am thinking you would have to look at the handful of PC titles that at least as far as i know were developed for the PC only with no console port in mind.

As I mentioned earlier I think Shogun 2 qualifies as a "full generational leap" from the consoles. My earlier post

Off the top of my head I want to say Shogun 2: Total War. Individually the samurai models are pretty good in my opinion. You then times that by 1000+, make them fight it out on screen then on top of that add in little stuff. Stuff like arrows getting stuck in the ground/units, if you have the Blood Pack DLC them and the ground getting covered in blood, limbs and what not being chopped off, etc and it becomes pretty damn impressive.

So I would say Shogun 2 is a generational leap from what the consoles are able to do.

The reason I am pretty sure it qualifies as I can't think of a console game that manages to do the same scale Shogun 2 can. I also think that if for whatever reason Shogun 2 was ported to the consoles the game would have to be scaled back to such an extent that it would change the experience of the game. Though of course it doesn't help that it is in a genre that i believe is pretty dead on the consoles. So there is no game I can think of off the top of my head to easily compare it to.

 

[fresquito]

Yeah, same experiences...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8kGwJX_aJo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsY07llh6U

 

[Chinner]

i get the impressino somepeople here are connecting generation leap with = texture quality. its not surprising some people dont seem to care about resolution, frame-rate, aa and af but hey what the ho

 

[nelsonroyale]

"Uncharted 3 to the Witcher 2 doesn't really yeild that huge of a difference in the overall visual package"

A lot of times people compare Uncharted 3 on a TV at 7 feet away with Witcher 2 on a monitor a foot away from your eyes.

An easy comparison is to take Witcher 2 on a modern computer at 1080p with bells and whistles and play for a bit. Then turn it down to console specs of 720p or less with little if any aa/af and play the same bit again on the same monitor. The difference will be immediate and drastic.

Ive played Witcher 2 on Ultra at 1080p and Uncharted 3...W2 looks spectacular, but overall Uncharted 3 impressed me more...the plane and the desert section leading up to the settlement, and everything onward from there, were flat out the best visuals I have seen... Actually, thinking about it a bit more, it is probably a flush..the Eternal Battlefield looked pretty amazing.

As for the original q. I dont think so... Certainly playing everything on 1080 p is great and Witcher 2 is just about the only game I have played with consistantly amazing textures...but Jak 3 to U3 was a full gen difference to me...this isnt close to that yet at all.

GTA IV with mods looks pretty insane, although though the contrast often looks messed up. Wish people could have updated a better game though

 

[Soul_Pie]

The one good point of consoles in a sense is that because of the uniformity of a console as compared to the PC you can push that particular hardware because no one will left behind. It's hard for games on PC to really push the boundaries because they've got to account for those left behind who are on older hardware, and it's especially hard when they're catering for the console crowd as well. If there was a game that came out which made complete use of a very small range of very powerful graphics cards and nobody else it would be a massive leap on the consoles and begin to show us a true glimpse of the PC's power. But the developers would be shooting themselves in the foot because the market isn't big enough. That uniformity of consoles, however, brings trouble down the line because obviously the hardware can't be updated with technological improvement.

I don't really think there's much point comparing the two anyway, especially using ideas like generations to apply to PCs when they're so different in their dynamics. They're on different streams altogether.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Yeah, same experiences...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8kGwJX_aJo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsY07llh6U

The first video made me wonder what a modern day Shenmue would look like.

 

[Feindflug]

This statement makes no sense. Gears 3 is a remarkably ugly game, even for a console game.

Gears 3 a remarkably ugly game even for a console game..umm what the fuck am I reading? :lol

 

[AdventureRacing]

I think the big thing that sets apart console gaming from PC gaming is the online infrastructure. I know PSN and live have come a long way but they still pale in comparison to what there is on PC.

Getting much better graphics and improved frame rate doesn't hurt either.

I don't think PC games are a generation ahead but it sometimes feels that way playing on my PC.

Having said all that i think the next generation of consoles will produce games that are far more impressive than what are currently on PC.

 

[RibbedHero]

Gears 3 a remarkably ugly game even for a console game..umm what the fuck am I reading? :lol

An opinion. One that I agree with, but an opinion nonetheless.

 

[KKRT00]

If only...

Its not magic, its actually quite simple and straightforward.
3x 580 is like 2.5 faster than 580 [probably less]. As You dont need 60fps on consoles, You can cut it to half, so now You just need a GPU 1.25 faster than 580.
Now we can cut unoptimized deferred MSAA they were using in this tech demo, that eats up like 6ms and exchange it with smth like SMAA 4x what would eat like 2ms, so now You need just one GTX 580 to render samaritan demo. Lets assume hard coding and assets optimization gives us 30% boost, now You need just 70% of 580 power to render it and thats close to what 560 actually is.
Then we can optimize even further things like tessellation, use much better optimized bokeh [like CE 3 one] and so on

 

[eso76]

Its diminishing returns - consoles are quite powerful to render nice graphics, but not powerful enough to render it properly, thats why You have awful IQ, awful lod streaming systems, awful textures etc.
And when You compare raw processing power than PS3 is like 10-12 faster than PS2.
On PC You have the same game [like BF 3] in almost twice higher resolution, in double the framerates [its already at least 4 times stronger than PS3], with more than twice as many players, with much bigger maps, better LOD, better textures, better particles, more effects etc. PC are already using more than 8 times power of current gen consoles efficiently. It is generation leap, it has to be, we are 7 years in current gen, it would be stupid to not to be there.

I'm not arguing it's not a generational leap, because a good PC certainly is at least 10 times 'faster' than current gen consoles, probably more.
But the need to retain compatibility with older hardware means we're only seeing improvements in IQ, PP, quality of shadowing, filtering, particles...basically, stuff that can be applied over a 'current' gen core graphical structure and mostly 'currrent gen' assets etc.
I have a different idea of 'generational leap'.

 

[eso76]

...

..........

really?

like MuseManMike explained i don't consider differences that disappear with some compression and drop in resolution to be a generational leap.
BF3 on PC is roughly the same game, only better (even much better) rendered than console versions.

Graphics built from the ground up for a next gen system will differ for 'deeper' reasons;
even Kameo (surprisingly, given its troubled development) wasn't a 'last gen' game rendered in greater fidelty; there's no way you could mistake it for a last gen game even in youtube videos.

 

[ghst]

there would've been a time i would've done my darnedest to prevent couch dwelling stockholm sydromers from having to build a new wing to their house every six months just to increase the distance between them and their tv. today, i'm quite content with letting them dwell in their own archaic ruin, begging for their proprietary champions to grant them an officially sanctioned increase in personal standards before they're too arthritic and cataract ridden to even appreciate it.

 

[LiK]

Visually, games like The Witcher 2 and Battlefield 3 at max settings is not something that can be done on current consoles. Compromises need to be made to port them. Even Batman AC looks better on PC with the enhancements.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

there would've been a time i would've done my darnedest to prevent couch dwelling stockholm sydromers from having to build a new wing to their house every six months just to increase the distance between them and their tv. today, i'm quite content with letting them dwell in their own archaic ruin, begging for their proprietary champions to grant them an officially sanctioned increase in personal standards before they're too arthritic and cataract ridden to even appreciate it.

Holy shit I love you :lol

 

[Feindflug]

An opinion. One that I agree with, but an opinion nonetheless.

Yeah a hyperbolic (the aliasing is really bad, it looks terrible, I think Gears 3 is the jaggiest, juiciest, and brownest looking game ever made, Gears 2 looked better) , totally uninformed and ridiculous opinion, considering that we're talking about 6+ years old hardware then yes saying that Gears 3 looks remarkably ugly even for a console game is a completely ridiculous statement IMO.

 

[dark10x]

I'm convinced that "The Witcher 2" is a next generation game graphically speaking.

Considering how close the 360 version looks (based on what we've seen) to the PC version, I'm going to argue otherwise.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

Considering how close the 360 version looks (based on what we've seen) to the PC version, I'm going to argue otherwise.

Have you ever argued the opposite for *any* multiplatform game?

 

[irishcow]

An opinion. One that I agree with, but an opinion nonetheless.

I have to agree too. Gears 3 is not good looking. There are jaggies everywhere. It's just not "clean", if you know what I mean. I mean it was fun, I beat it, and it would have impressed me in 2005, but in 2011? Come on now...

 

[Diprosalic]

I have to agree too. Gears 3 is not good looking. There are jaggies everywhere. It's just not "clean", if you know what I mean. I mean it was fun, I beat it, and it would have impressed me in 2005, but in 2011? Come on now...

yes, game is incredibly ugly, both technically and from a design point of view.

 

[mxgt]

Visually, games like The Witcher 2 and Battlefield 3 at max settings is not something that can be done on current consoles. Compromises need to be made to port them. Even Batman AC looks better on PC with the enhancements.

Of course it does, every multi plat game looks miles better on PC

 

[SmokyDave]

Considering how close the 360 version looks (based on what we've seen) to the PC version, I'm going to argue otherwise.

I'm not sure that's the right way to look at it. Rather than looking at this gen, let's try and envisage the next gen.

Do we honestly believe that the next generation of consoles will be able to run a game as nice looking as The Witcher 2 @ 1080p/60 with a truckload of AA?

When you look at it like that, I'm not convinced. Can't wait to eat my words at launch though

 

[dark10x]

Have you ever argued the opposite for *any* multiplatform game?

No, but The Witcher 2 is one of those that COULD be argued. I don't think it is truly a generational leap of a game, however.

Do we honestly believe that the next generation of consoles will be able to run a game as nice looking as The Witcher 2 @ 1080p/60 with a truckload of AA?

I would hope so. If not, then I question why new machines were released in the first place.

 

[daviyoung]

Of course it does, every multi plat game looks miles better on PC

You haven't played Driver: San Francisco.

 

[mxgt]

Is there any direct feed 720p 360 shots of Witcher 2 that can be compared to maxed out 1080p shots on PC?

I'll be damned if it even comes close.

 

[idlewild_]

I'm confused, what are people expecting from the next gen of consoles?

1080p, 60fps, 4xAA is something I've heard people hoping for next gen (I'll throw in >24 player mp as well.) Well, PCs already do that

Spoiler

they do better

...so how are PC games not a generation ahead? Are people honestly expecting 1440p, 120fps, 16xAA, HBAO, etc. or better in the next gen of consoles?

 

[Corky]

Is there any direct feed 720p 360 shots of Witcher 2 that can be compared to maxed out 1080p shots on PC?

I'll be damned if it even comes close.

Careful, we're reaching the point of that last thread that was about this subject. Arguments devolved into lunatics saying things like "well since you're sitting far away from your tv, it'll still look the same so they'll end up looking virtually identical".

 

[iceatcs]

Of course it does, every multi plat game looks miles better on PC

What about PES and Fifa?
Not sure the latter but I have 2010 and 2009 and both look like using PS2 engine rather than HD engine.

 

[thefil]

From a gameplay perspective, not really. I can't think of many (any?) PC games I've played for which implementation on consoles would be an intractable problem.

From a graphics perspective, I don't care.

From a "where is gaming going" perspective, yes. Digital downloads. Price fluctuation. Instant-on gaming experiences. F2P proliferation. Social media hubs. Gaming as a component of a person's digital life instead of as an isolated box.

I think that the next generation will be defined by these things (at least on the machines that succeed).

 

[delta25]

Not in the slightest, unless of course an Uber resolution or some fancy AA and AF is your thing, then sure, why not, other then that I have yet to see something in a PC exclusive game that hasn't been seen in a console exclusive.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

Careful, we're reaching the point of that last thread that was about this subject. Arguments devolved into lunatics saying things like "well since you're sitting far away from your tv, it'll still look the same so they'll end up looking virtually identical".

Ahhh good times.