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[Mr.Phoenix]

This is what I think MS and Sony could be doing.

MS:
Xbox handheld - $399-$499 (arm, will aim for ps5 pro power)

It would be an engineering miracle if they could even fit the Xbox Series S power into a handheld form factor (something that can work while drawing under 15W-20W). I see people just throwing around handheld specs and ideas like you can turn anything into a handheld.

---

As for OP, no, nothing is going to be "the future". And anytime you see that its just sensationalist marketing. Everything has its place. You will never have handhelds that are as powerful as consoles and will never have consoles that are as powerful as PCs, of the same generation.

And while everyone and their dog seems to be hyping up handhelds thanks to Steamdeck and thanks to rumors saying MS is throwing their hat into that ring... I would like to remind that the Steamdeck, after over 2 years, has still only managed to sell an estimated 3M units. That is not anything near Nintendo Switch numbers or even traditional console numbers.And IMO, means its still remains to be seen just how well such a device will perform, that isn't a Nintendo device.

Oh, and handhelds will not reduce dev time and costs. Just like it has with consoles and PCs, those costs will creep onto handheld games too... especially if these handhelds are powerful enough to play traditional PC and console games (eg. Steam Deck). Even Nintendo is going to face that eventually, well, unless they deliberately keep their machine gimped. Hell, even Zelda Tears of the Kingdom was in development for almost 5y+ and cost an estimated $80-$150M to make.

I think the gaming space will become increasingly a high risk space on console and the costs of those risks will be passed on increasingly to consumers. Handhelds are just another piece of hardware that you will pay a luxury tax for. Consider the PS Portal. It’s essentially a standard screen that runs streaming software and you play remotely with a standard controller and it’s $250 dollars. I also think it’s a market test on how it sells and what pricing they can get away with. The result, highly popular and price isn’t an issue.

If Sony were to make an actual handheld I feel it would be the same price as the Pro console because it’s essentially a console, it’s convenient, plus a luxury tax because they can. I think people will be looking at an $800 item. I think the PS6 base console will be $799 now that Xbox is spasming though so who knows.

I don't see Sony making an actual handheld. Sony tends to be iterative. They do something, if that thing gets successful, they do it again but better.

I believe their next "handheld" will be the PS Portal 2. And the only difference with that is that you won't need a console at home (though that would be an option too), to stream games to it. And it would still cost around $200. This would mean that it would be able to pay all PS games, they would likely require that you have a PS+ account to use it.

I feel that's the direction Sony would go with their handhelds.

 

[Rickyiez]

Nope, they coexist with each other. Playing games on a 7" screen doesn't constitute as gaming to me, it's just "passing time"

 

[RoboFu]

Same prediction I made 5 years ago. Pc and consoles are moving toward mobile and mobile is moving toward pc and consoles. You guys keep laughing but look at all the pc handhelds now and arm advancements.

 

[Three]

If anything new architecture with weak hardware will only increase costs. If you're saying handheld users don't mind poor performing or worse looking games then that's on the user but that same game can run on a console with far less work optimising.

 

[ArtHands]

I don't think they understand due to their inadequate familiarity with technical stuffs, especially when they have next to no experience with modern days portables after the bomb of Vita. That's why they were laughing

 

[ergem]

It would be an engineering miracle if they could even fit the Xbox Series S power into a handheld form factor (something that can work while drawing under 15W-20W). I see people just throwing around handheld specs and ideas like you can turn anything into a handheld.

I’m thinking 4-6 years from now when next generation starts? Still not viable?

How about a PS6 based on Arm architecture that is twice more powerful than PS5 pro with full backwards compatibility at $499? I don’t know perhaps there’s no incentive for Amd to collaborate with Sony on Arm as it wouldn’t benefit Amd’s other businesses.

 

[Felessan]

Xbox handheld - $399-$499 (arm, will aim for ps5 pro power)
PS portable - $399-$499 (arm, will aim for ps5 pro power)

It would be a miracle to have ps4pro in 15-20W tdp.

I think a PS5 Portable releasing towards the end of the generation would be the best bet

In 15-20 TDP package? It's unrealistic dream.

Classic consoles will not go away. Simply because 200W TDP is quite the difference to 15-20W TDP.

I’m thinking 4-6 years from now when next generation starts? Still not viable?
How about a PS6 based on Arm architecture that is twice more powerful than PS5 pro with full backwards compatibility at $499? I don’t know perhaps there’s no incentive for Amd to collaborate with Sony on Arm as it wouldn’t benefit Amd’s other businesses.

And Elves will come out of the forest next year.
Chip technology is in the "maturing" hase - this means progress will slow down over time (and it's already kinda slow) not just shot up into galaxy to have 400 tdp now put into 15-20 tdp in just 4-6 years

 

[ergem]

Chip technology is in the "maturing" hase - this means progress will slow down over time (and it's already kinda slow) not just shot up into galaxy to have 400 tdp now put into 15-20 tdp in just 4-6 years

It’s slowing down for x86 and traditional pc architecture. But it doesn’t seem to be the case with Arm cpus by the looks of what Apple is able to achieve with it. .

 

[Xyphie]

It would be an engineering miracle if they could even fit the Xbox Series S power into a handheld form factor (something that can work while drawing under 15W-20W).

Matching a Series S in a handheld format isn't too far away. Strix Point is 16CU already, AMD's next generation APU probably gets them to 20. At 17W it can roughly match the ~1.5GHz clock speeds. The missing link currently to run a Series S game out-the-box would be faster RAM. With LPDDR6 they'll match the 224GB/s bandwidth. For sure with a 3nm or 2nm chip it could happen.

 

[LimanimaPT]

No. But we sure can reduce devolpment costs by stop making movies and start making games. I' m tired of picking up a game and spend half the time watching useless cut scenes.
Stop adding useless gameplay sequences like that snow balls fight in TLOU ( not sure if it was on the 1st or 2nd).
Stop making 40h plus games. Stick to 15 hours, that's more the enough for SP game.
I could probably come up wirh more.
Then, stop charging 70euros for a game. This as become an hobby for rich people.

 

[CliffBronger]

Absolutely not, me and many others would rather give up gaming than play on a handheld.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think all of the above is the future.

So what would you say the resolution of these games will be on the handhelds?

 

[mckmas8808]

No. But we sure can reduce devolpment costs by stop making movies and start making games. I' m tired of picking up a game and spend half the time watching useless cut scenes.
Stop adding useless gameplay sequences like that snow balls fight in TLOU ( not sure if it was on the 1st or 2nd).
Stop making 40h plus games. Stick to 15 hours, that's more the enough for SP game.
I could probably come up wirh more.
Then, stop charging 70euros for a game. This as become an hobby for rich people.

So should the following games not exist?

- The Last of Us
- Uncharted
- Metal Gear Solid
- God of War
- Alan Wake
- Life is Strange

 

[mckmas8808]

The Steam Deck is overrated. Its a niche toy for 40 year old nerds.

Call me when it reaches even PSP numbers.

You are so right! The Steam Deck is great for what is it. But to think it's replacing gaming on PC desktops is literally INSANE!

I'm sorry (but NOT sorry), but the Wii U suffered, FIRST AND FOREMOST, from a marketing decision. If they simply called it Wii 2 or Super Wii, it would have trod the path the Switch is currently sailing.

The Wii U failed, because it wasn't a good gaming console. It WASN'T because of bad marketing. Why some people think this is wild. The Switch is great because it does what the Wii U couldn't. Be a true hybrid gaming device.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I’m thinking 4-6 years from now when next generation starts? Still not viable?

How about a PS6 based on Arm architecture that is twice more powerful than PS5 pro with full backwards compatibility at $499? I don’t know perhaps there’s no incentive for Amd to collaborate with Sony on Arm as it wouldn’t benefit Amd’s other businesses.

Still not possible.

Lets put this into perspective.

The steam deck is a 1.6TF handheld built on a 7nm node and draws around 15-20W of power. That means it's less powerful than a PS4 (1.8TF). And would need almost 3x the power to reach a PS4pro (4.2TF).

Even if you drop that to a 4nm node, you are not getting PS4pro power from a chip like that that is still designed to draw no more than 20-30W.

Now a base PS5 that's 10.2TF... a PS5pro? that's almost 17TF. See the problem?

And have you seen Apple's ARM running RE? TFs are TFs... doesn't matter if its on ARM or X86. Even with ARM APUs, their GPUs are still very similar to what we currently have from Nvidia and AMD.

 

[Superkewl]

I dont know, maybe it's a generational thing. In my day, the desire was always to play on the biggest screen possible.

I could never play a game, watch a movie or even visit a website on a tiny screen. I find it infuriating and therefore mobile gaming/handhelds will never be for me. I will simply retire from gaming if that became the standard.

I own a switch, but it has never been used outside of docked mode.

 

[Zacfoldor]

Honestly - I don’t think Nintendo is capable right now to deliver 1080p game @ 60FPS from their core IPs, they spent too much time with dogshit hardware. For non-Nintedo IPs - many handhelds are already delivering what they will never match.

Nintendo audience doesn’t need cutting tech.

What?

Bad take, imho. Terrible take. You think Ubisoft is a better developer than Nintendo? Ugh. What?

No brother, ugh. You don't play many Nintendo games do you?

Anyway, on the OP, problem is using 2 examples like Nintendo and From Soft. For them, anything will work. Replace those with Ubisoft and EA and does it still work?

 

[Felessan]

It’s slowing down for x86 and traditional pc architecture. But it doesn’t seem to be the case with Arm cpus by the looks of what Apple is able to achieve with it. .

It's problem with node performance improvements and not architecture. Arm will change nothing with that.
And Apple arm achievement rather bleak - it's somewhere on par with basic ps4, nothing to be excited in 2024.

 

[ArtHands]

To add on, Sony porting their PS5 and PS4 games to Steam is a big contribution for Steam and handheld PCs to lay the foundation, in preparation for the hybrid handheld future. So really thanks them to that

When traditional consoles get replaced by powerful hybrid handhelds like future Steam Deck in the future, console players can continue playing Playstation games on the TV, but with the added benefit of playing them everywhere

 

[GigaBowser]

nintendos leading industry years ahead genius perdictions

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I think that the future of hardware is scalable.....and both Xbox and PS will join the Switch approach to having a low level handheld, but they will also offer mid-high end consoles as usual.

It'll probably piss some people off, but yeah, I expect PS6 to have a handheld/dock at the base level (fairly cheap) and a more typical "costly" console with a lot more power.

With the advent of ML/AI, and developers needing to support many different platforms already, you're not really going to get the state of the art bleeding edge next gen exclusives anymore...that was kind of proven already this gen. PS6 handheld will play ALL PS6 games but for obvious reasons won't have BC with PS5, while the PS6 console will have full BC.

Curious to see what MS does, they may pull a rabbit out of their hat and offer BC on their handheld since that's a strength of theirs.

 

[Trunx81]

Copying Nintendo didn’t go well for anyone in history. Yes the PSP had its margin, but finally lost to the weaker Nintendo DS in sales. Every other company didn’t understand what makes Nintendo consoles (and I still count Handhelds as consoles, sue me) great: Relatively cheap hardware, paired with some of if not the the best first party support.

Microsoft tried to copy the success of the Wii with Kinect (Sony with move, but not to the extend) and failed all over the place. Releasing a powerful handheld that (probably will) costs a lot more than a Switch 2, with (probably) lesser battery life is not the right way to go.

 

[ArtHands]

PSP lose to the DS mostly due to lesser appealing games. Same for PS Vita but at a larger extend.

Some players are afraid of hybrid handhelds, because they think this is yet another area that might threaten the existence of consoles. Instead of worrying over the inevitable, they should prepare for it.

 

[Woopah]

Copying Nintendo didn’t go well for anyone in history. Yes the PSP had its margin, but finally lost to the weaker Nintendo DS in sales. Every other company didn’t understand what makes Nintendo consoles (and I still count Handhelds as consoles, sue me) great: Relatively cheap hardware, paired with some of if not the the best first party support.

Microsoft tried to copy the success of the Wii with Kinect (Sony with move, but not to the extend) and failed all over the place. Releasing a powerful handheld that (probably will) costs a lot more than a Switch 2, with (probably) lesser battery life is not the right way to go.

MS were very successful with Kinect early on, they just weren't able to capitalise on it and made some bad decisions because of that success.

 

[GeekGuyWithGlasses]

So, I don't usually make threads, but I've been thinking about this for a while ever since the PS5 Pro announcement.

As some of you may know, the current rumors for the next generation of Xbox and Playstation look similar: An enthusiast, traditional console that most likely will cost a lot of money, and a handheld designed for the core audience. Xbox seemingly wants to try their hand at this a couple years earlier, but both companies want to go torward a similar direction.

The Nintendo Switch and especially the Steam Deck have shown that people are ready and willing to have premium gaming experiences on a specifically designed handheld console. When I think back on my childhood, I remember thinking just how awesome the PSP was. It was essentially a PS2 but in my hands. Playing Tekken and Monster Hunter, even God of War, it was a blast. I think this concept has always and will always be enticing to people, which is why especially the Switch dominates so hard.

It also proves that you do not need to go balls to the walls hard on fidelity. The successes of Nintendo's games and games like Elden Ring that are outside of Nintendo's ecosystem show that, if you can just make a pretty enough looking game, achieved with amazing art direction, and just focus on gameplay, you can sell gangbusters.

We live in times where games have insane costs and dev times. I've always lamented the latter. It sucks. I know that we get plenty games year after year, but what if I like a specific game, and want more of it? I guess I should get ready for a minimum wait of 4 years. Ghost of Tsushima is one my favourite games from last gen and 4 years later there isn't so much as a peep of its sequel.

And now with this recent trend of handhelds getting more popular, could this be the paradigm shift the industry needs? Could this be the solution to these problems? These traditional consoles have cemented themselves as goods that push fideility first, much like gaming PCs. Handhelds do not have that sort of image. You kind of don't expect that, gaming on a handheld and all. What if Microsoft and Sony decided to "copy" Nintendo and focus less on fidelity, and more on other things like logic, physics, ai and art direction while subsequently lowering budgets and dev times?

And for those that want more, the traditional enthusiast consoles will simply take what's on the handhelds, but offer an enhanced experience. Much like emulating Switch games on PC. I'm sure you've seen some of those 4k 60 fps Tears of the Kingdom vids!

Handhelds would also be generally more affordable. I think the PS5 Pro is simply a sign of times to come. These "traditional" consoles will keep going up in price. A handheld focused industry would be more affordable and healthier. Plus in terms of tech, we got all that AI stuff happening too. There's so many advancements that have been made. Handhelds, for the average consumer, just seem ideal going forward.

I personally think this would be a great future. This is of course completely subjective, and many might not agree, but I just feel like games have looked good enough for more than a decade and have entered the diminishing returns era eons ago. Bobby Kotick said that the Nintendo Switch 2 has power comparable with the PS4 (or even PS4 Pro, not sure on that one). If you can give me that + DLSS and have me playing games like The Last of Us Part 2 I'll be over the damn moon. I do not need more. I think games don't more than that.

I guess my questions to you guys are:
- Would you like a "Nintendofied" gaming industry? If not, why?
- Do you have other suggestions to stop the ballooning game dev costs and especially dev lengths?

I'd like to read some of your ideas.

Lets get something very clear here:

Developing a game and optimizing said games to run well on different hardware combinations are two very different things here.

Just because X dev develops a game for the Switch doesnt magically cuts down the costs dramatically, not when you have a crspload of different costs you need to account for/ many people who need to be paid etc etc etc

AI can help with the workload for sure but we are still VERY far from the future of AI accounting for a lion share of workload

 

[GeekGuyWithGlasses]

MS were very successful with Kinect early on, they just weren't able to capitalise on it and made some bad decisions because of that success.

It was a hardware that most of the time didnt worked properly and to add salts to the injury, they made the kinect mandatory for many games that could have done without it (Rise of Nightmares for example), if they just stuck to party games then sure.

But for games that required fast and precise reaction time (Steel Batallion/ Sonic Riders), coupled with a camera that somehow managed to work worse than the bloody EyeToy from the PS2 era(!!!!!!!), it was a recipe for disaster.

 

[jm89]

I think for anyone other then Nintendo it's better as a companion device.

Don't want games being limited by handhelds. Games should be built for consoles/pc and then scaled down if possible for handhelds. But the scaling down shouldn't be mandatory like what ms has inflicted with the series s.

 

[Nikodemos]

One notable issue with handhelds, especially ARM-based ones, is that they're really expensive.

F.ex. take the Ayaneo Pocket S. It uses the G3x Gen 2 (which is pretty much the most powerful wide-availability SD chip, since the even more powerful ones are still flagship phone-exclusive).
The cheapest tier, with 12 GB RAM, 128 GB SSD, 1080p screen, was $400 (and that was with the early bird IndieGoGo discount).
If you wanted the 16 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD (same screen), it jumped to $500 (with the same discount).
The 0% discount, official retail prices for those two are $560 and $670, respectively.

Even with the IGG early bird discount, that's a lot of money. And the retail prices (with some measure of profit margin built into them) are really high.

 

[ZehDon]

I think that the future of hardware is scalable.....and both Xbox and PS will join the Switch approach to having a low level handheld, but they will also offer mid-high end consoles as usual.

It'll probably piss some people off, but yeah, I expect PS6 to have a handheld/dock at the base level (fairly cheap) and a more typical "costly" console with a lot more power.

With the advent of ML/AI, and developers needing to support many different platforms already, you're not really going to get the state of the art bleeding edge next gen exclusives anymore...that was kind of proven already this gen. PS6 handheld will play ALL PS6 games but for obvious reasons won't have BC with PS5, while the PS6 console will have full BC.

Curious to see what MS does, they may pull a rabbit out of their hat and offer BC on their handheld since that's a strength of theirs.

Interesting point to consider. We've seen Sony do this before with the PS3, to a lesser degree. I'm not sure Microsoft would follow suite voluntarily. The Xbox Series S, for example, has the same BC list as it's bigger brother, it simply can't upscale everything - but it can run everything. Given Microsoft's clear focus in this regard, I'm not sure it's something they'll sacrifice. So their handheld may end up running the Series S versions of Xbox XSX games, but I imagine it will run everything. If Sony sacrifice features for their own handheld, for me at least, it becomes a considerably less attractive offer in comparison. With that said, it's worth considering just how Microsoft and Sony are planning to deliver their handhelds - presuming Sony really is working on their own. Microsoft's flirted with ARM, and it seems the most likely way of getting more bang for their buck into a handheld... but that means likely sacrificing full BC. I can't wait to see what they're cooking.

 

[noobdoomguy8658]

Steam Deck transformed my outlook completely.

Chasing higher resolution is a dead end. The deck allowed me to forget almost all of that and just enjoy playing games.

Couldn't agree more. I don't own a Steam Deck, but did go for a lower resolution for the games I play on my laptop, which surprisingly allowed to be use the higher graphical settings at a stable FPS. That's a lot more preferable than ray/path-tracing bells and whistles that make the games take longer to come out, cost more, and require ever-more expensive hardware that's been in the diminishing returns area for years, only to cost like actual breakthroughs and not let you play the games comfortably without faking frames or resolutions; what a joke.

 

[bitbydeath]

They’re a niche market, it goes:

Mobile > Console > PC > VR > Handhelds

 

[RetroGamingUK]

They’re a niche market, it goes:

Mobile > Console > PC > VR > Handhelds

These PC handhelds have grown in popularity due to Nintendo not having a hardware refresh in 8 years.

Once Switch 2 comes out that fad is over.

You can’t compete with Nintendo in that area, they’ve been at it for nearly 4 decades and only the PSP has managed success in this market.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

No handhelds are for children. Adult gamers like sitting in front of their large 4k tv’s with a controller playing on sayey of the art hardware.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

No handhelds are for children. Adult gamers like sitting in front of their large 4k tv’s with a controller playing on sayey of the art hardware.

For the most part

My daughter plays my Switch (which I got for Mario Odyseey) a lot more that me.

 

[Quasicat]

I think Nintendo will make it work as they take old hardware and do amazing things with it.

That being said, I think expensive hardware will move into the cloud since that cost can be shared among more people. I have a coworker that uses GForce Now and tells me that it is cheaper to use over buying a huge new rig every couple of years. If consoles are going to be $500+ in the upcoming generations, I’m definitely going to think before I jump in.

 

[noobdoomguy8658]

For as much as I like the idea, I don't see the industry chasing the handheld PC market at large.

Given the choice between trying to sell a shallow game with its graphics and putting more effort into the actual game, the big developers (or publishers and execs, rather) will push for the former.

The good things we've learned to appreciate about the games from 2000s are not something we should expect from the AAA segment of the industry anymore. Not for the vast majority of it for sure.

So, I guess the ball is on the handheld side when it comes to PC games. If someone goes the Nintendo route and makes a handheld console with its own ecosystem and exclusives that are worth it for a substantial amount of people, then yeah, there will be handheld-first games. But that's just not what Steam Deck is, nor is any handheld PCs out there.

 

[ArtHands]

The answer basically boils down to: yes, it is the future unless you're Sony who have no good track record in handheld