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[Physiocrat]

When I say solution, I mean that there is no practical difference in the gaming experience in twitchy games between streaming and playing on your local computer/console.

Or is it always going to be the case at the theoretical level, that we we have latency with streaming?

 

[BennyBlanco]

Who knows. If you told me 20 years ago that one day I could type Salma Hayak posing on a bed in lingerie into a text prompt and get a pretty accurate approximation of that in an image I would've said you're crazy. Tech is evolving strangely.

 

[FoxMcChief]

No idea. I can say that I just played a match of MW3 at work via remote playing on my Xbox Series X at home and went 27:8 in Team Deathmatch.

 

[FoxMcChief]

Who knows. If you told me 20 years ago that one day I could type Salma Hayak posing on a bed in lingerie into a text prompt and get a pretty accurate approximation of that in an image I would've said you're crazy. Tech is evolving strangely.

That's absolutely disgusting. Where can I go to avoid seeing that type of thing?

 

[The Cockatrice]

Nothing will ever surpass local latency. Will you notice future improved streaming latency? Maybe not, but competitively local will stay king forever.

 

[Buhaj]

That's absolutely disgusting. Where can I go to avoid seeing that type of thing?

Stay on GAF and you're safe.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Has latency improved at all over the last 30 years?

 

[clem84]

The 'pipe' has to become bigger and faster.

Has latency improved at all over the last 30 years?

I'm not an expert but I think it has? It was definitely possible to play online games on 56K but it was a lot more prone to latency and just inconsistencies.

 

[RagnarokIV]

Who knows. If you told me 20 years ago that one day I could type Salma Hayak posing on a bed in lingerie into a text prompt and get a pretty accurate approximation of that in an image I would've said you're crazy. Tech is evolving strangely.

That's absolutely disgusting. Where can I go to avoid seeing that type of thing?

I too need a direct link to this awful website so I know exactly what to type into the domain blocker.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Fiber and close servers. I have 10~20ms of lag with GFN.

 

[Fess]

Awhile back Digital Foundry showed that there is less latency streaming with Geforce Now than on console playing locally on some games.
So GFN is the solution perhaps?

 

[Wildebeest]

I suppose you could move closer to the data centre. If you have under a 5ms ping, it might feel fine.

 

[Topher]

Awhile back Digital Foundry showed that there is less latency streaming with Geforce Now than on console playing locally on some games.
So GFN is the solution perhaps?

I remember that, but I really gotta question those results. Just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[ReBurn]

Has latency improved at all over the last 30 years?

Good for you for still rocking that old 286 with the 19 kbaud dialup going strong!

 

[T4keD0wN]

When I say solution, I mean that there is no practical difference in the gaming experience in twitchy games between streaming and playing on your local computer/console.

Or is it always going to be the case at the theoretical level, that we we have latency with streaming?

I cant tell any difference between local and geforce now when it comes to input latency and i live about 120 and 100km from the 2 closest servers, but obviously the difference is still there even though i cant tell. Image quality is unfortunately a different story.

 

[rodrigolfp]

I remember that, but I really gotta question those results. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Consoles usually have forced Vsync triple buffered and maybe something else, but the first already adds a lot of lag.

 

[Loomy]

There will always be latency in everything. It's going to keep getting smaller and smaller though. Might not happen in the next decade but it'll happen.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Probably if things continue to advance as is but, what we perceive right now as typical rendering on a GPU & CPU with polygons, triangle geometry with lighting hand made or with hard to run solutions like ray tracing / path tracing will be extinct

The more interesting question is we're heading to a point where we throw nearly all of the rendering pipeline to the bin because AI for a very insignificant computing time knows better how real-life is supposed to look and would practically give you path tracing for a fraction of power consumption and rendering requirements. You could practically push the game's "skeleton" which would have the rules established for the game and how the devs want the mechanics to be, but then the AI can put the coating over everything and you could even specify a look you want in the game or change character appearances on the fly.

That kind AI will be done on monster servers for the learning part and when that's done, it's available in your pocket cellphone almost, so it'll be hard to differentiate between raw rendering and "streaming". You'll be looking through an AI's eyes with very low processing compared to brute forcing it with old rendering techniques.

 

[zeroluck]

120FPS on GFN is more than good enough for 99% of gamers, unless your ping is horrible.

 

[Fess]

I remember that, but I really gotta question those results. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Consoles have more latency so while GFN have twice as much latency as local PC it's still better than native on console. Ultra tier is technically fantastic, going by specs but never tried it myself.

 

[Topher]

Consoles usually have forced Vsync triple buffered and maybe something else, but the first already adds a lot of lag.

Consoles have more latency so while GFN have twice as much latency as local PC it's still better than native on console. Ultra tier is technically fantastic, going by specs but never tried it myself.

Yeah, I forget about that with consoles.

 

[Fess]

Yeah, I forget about that with consoles.

Even the much hated Stadia was great, I remember someone doing frame counting on a video and said it was one frame of latency. Many things was bad of course but Google was ahead of the rest in many ways, I think Microsoft is still behind where Stadia was at launch on streaming quality UI and access.

 

[Topher]

Even the much hated Stadia was great, I remember someone doing frame counting on a video and said it was one frame of latency. Many things was bad of course but Google was ahead of the rest in many ways, I think Microsoft is still behind where Stadia was at launch on streaming quality UI and access.

I was pretty amazed at Stadia. The tech was great. Why they brought in Phil Harrison to run that show I have no idea. Feel like xcloud should be a lot further along than it is.

 

[Griffon]

Morons still come and say that "within 10 years" the cloud will be the main way we play games.

Dudes, wake up, in 10 years a phone the size of my dick will have enough power to run 20 Cyberpunk sessions. It'll literally be cheaper to buy one of those than to pay for the theoretical (physically impossible) bandwidth necessary to reduce the input delay.

And dotting the world in graphic-incentive data-centers is nothing but a stupid-expensive fantasy.

 

[killatopak]

Can't.

Even the best case scenario is highly dependent on how close you are to a server. It's basically a lottery.

It's also not conductive in any mp or competitive gaming.

Let me put it this way. There's a reason all tournaments, at least most reputable and legitimate ones, operate locally. During the pandemic one of the biggest esports world tournament tried not doing it locally. There is legitimate, concrete and quantifiable drop off in performance versus those playing near the servers versus teams that aren't. This is already with non-cloud equipment. Using cloud will just magnify the issue.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Most of the latency problem with streaming comes from the time it takes to decode digital signals, you can't really avoid that since digital signals need a lot of redundancy. The solution i remember Stadia tried to implement was use some AI thing to predict player input but i'm not sure how well that went.

 

[ThisIsMyDog]

I'm playing on GeForce Now and the latency even for mouse and keyboard is great. On gamepad, it's like playing locally - I can't spot even the slightest difference. The server is around 700 km (432 miles) away, so... it's already a solved problem.

 

[Fess]

I was pretty amazed at Stadia. The tech was great. Why they brought in Phil Harrison to run that show I have no idea. Feel like xcloud should be a lot further along than it is.

The streaming tech was the best at the time. I used all services. xCloud somehow had hype but it was always low res and laggy and had you waiting. And PSNow was 720p with compression issues. And GFN while great in theory had long queues and was terrible to use because of standard PC logins unless you were on PC and had mouse and keyboard.
Stadia was the perfect pick up and play service fir the living room. But the hardware was weak and software library was small and they had no exclusives and internet hate and console fanboys plus impatient Google killed it before it had a chance to evolve into something good.
I still believe server based streaming is where gaming will go in the future. Once server tech can vastly surpass local computation without queue issues.

 

[killatopak]

I'm playing on GeForce Now and the latency even for mouse and keyboard is great. On gamepad, it's like playing locally - I can't spot even the slightest difference. The server is around 700 km (432 miles) away, so... it's already a solved problem.

A blind man can't spot the difference between a pile of shit and a pile of gold 10 meters away from him.

Doesn't mean they aren't different.

 

[ThisIsMyDog]

A blind man can't spot the difference between a pile of shit and a pile of gold 10 meters away from him.

Doesn't mean they aren't different.

Even Digital Foundry found that GeForce Now latency was better than consoles. I'm literally playing Cyberpunk 2077 right now and can't feel any additional latency using a gamepad. Even mouse input is okay. Have you actually used it, or are you just saying empty words?

 

[killatopak]

Even Digital Foundry found that GeForce Now latency was better than consoles. I'm literally playing Cyberpunk 2077 right now and can't feel any additional latency using a gamepad. Even mouse input is okay. Have you actually used it, or are you just saying empty words?

Cloud isn't exclusive to consoles you know and even then it still at the mercy of server distance. Like for like hardware on PC, it shits on GFN

IIRC none of the results actually show GFN having lesser latency than consoles with the exception of some game that they tested with 240fps. GFN won that one because the consoles didn't have a 240fps mode on that game.

Not to mention I don't even remember or recall them mentioning where and how close they were to the server when they tested it.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Can't.

Even the best case scenario is highly dependent on how close you are to a server. It's basically a lottery.

It's also not conductive in any mp or competitive gaming.

Let me put it this way. There's a reason all tournaments, at least most reputable and legitimate ones, operate locally. During the pandemic one of the biggest esports world tournament tried not doing it locally. There is legitimate, concrete and quantifiable drop off in performance versus those playing near the servers versus teams that aren't. This is already with non-cloud equipment. Using cloud will just magnify the issue.

Multiplayer doesn't have to value speed of reaction times equally.

Fighting games, for example, aren't the future of multiplayer.

 

[killatopak]

Multiplayer doesn't have to value speed of reaction times equally.

Fighting games, for example, aren't the future of multiplayer.

Fighting games aren't the only genre that requires twitch reflexes. Think of all the top MP games like CSGO, League, Dota, Valorant etc and you see a pattern.

 

[ThisIsMyDog]

Cloud isn't exclusive to consoles you know and even then it still at the mercy of server distance. Like for like hardware on PC, it shits on GFN

IIRC none of the results actually show GFN having lesser latency than consoles with the exception of some game that they tested with 240fps. GFN won that one because the consoles didn't have a 240fps mode on that game.

Not to mention I don't even remember or recall them mentioning where and how close they were to the server when they tested it.

I just told you the distance to the server and my experience. For me, it works great. I can't spot any latency compared to playing locally (I'm using 4K 60Hz, gamepad mostly), so I'm now asking you: did you check the service for yourself, or are you just speaking without anything to back it up? Lol

 

[rodrigolfp]

Cloud isn't exclusive to consoles you know and even then it still at the mercy of server distance. Like for like hardware on PC, it shits on GFN

IIRC none of the results actually show GFN having lesser latency than consoles with the exception of some game that they tested with 240fps. GFN won that one because the consoles didn't have a 240fps mode on that game.

Not to mention I don't even remember or recall them mentioning where and how close they were to the server when they tested it.

Console input lag sucks for reasons. So GFN using PCs + network lag sucks less than console lag.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Fighting games aren't the only genre that requires twitch reflexes. Think of all the top MP games like CSGO, League, Dota, Valorant etc and you see a pattern.

All genres rely on twitch reflexes to varying degrees. As multiplayer grows, the reliance on hyper twitch reflexes will continue to diminish and thus, this problem will solve itself.

 

[killatopak]

I just told you the distance to the server and my experience. For me, it works great. I can't spot any latency compared to playing locally (I'm using 4K 60Hz, gamepad mostly), so I'm now asking you: did you check the service for yourself, or are you just speaking without anything to back it up? Lol

Look I have no issue with your experience. If you're satisfied with it fine, good for you. Just don't assume its the experience for everyone.

Yes, I tried it. Our official GFN servers are outside the country so excuse me for continuing to hammer the issue about distance.

All genres rely on twitch reflexes to varying degrees. As multiplayer grows, the reliance on hyper twitch reflexes will continue to diminish and thus, this problem will solve itself.

I'm not sure about that. There are definitely other factors in MP aside from reflexes and I agree that reflexes isn't the end all be all but it is still a factor. For those at the top that sliver of importance might be the difference between victory and defeat when down to the wire.

 

[LectureMaster]

Maybe a rollback netcode pro max powered by AI?

Basically the AI predicts your input actions and does it ahead of you to synchronize with your input. But can you still call that you are the one playing the game then?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I'm not sure about that. There are definitely other factors in MP aside from reflexes and I agree that reflexes isn't the end all be all but it is still a factor. For those at the top that sliver of importance might be the difference between victory and defeat when down to the wire.

Latency obviously still matters but as multiplayer advances, the games that value latency less will have a competitive advantage over the games that value latency more. You appeal to a significantly wider player base when you don't require the reflexes of a 14 year old boy.

This problem is slowly being attacked from multiple positions. It's Germany in April 1945.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

I think games will learn your reaction times and play style. After some data has been crunched in the neural network the game will predict your movements and trigger reactions leading to less perceived latency, you as the gamer won't even feel that you are not always actually the one pushing the buttons.

 

[teokrazia]

It's also not conductive in any mp or competitive gaming.

I play SF6 Master League on GeForce NOW.
And tons of FPS MP.

Is not suitable for E-sports stuff, perhaps, but with a good connection and ping is more than a viable way for consumers.

 

[Mownoc]

Many are gaming on TVs that add more latency than streaming games. There will always be latency from streaming games, but there's always latency from local games based on a wide array of factors.

So it's easier to try and reduce the latency from display, input device or game software itself than the network latency. After all Eurogamer got lower latency on destiny 2 geforce now compared to a local Series X.

 

[killatopak]

Latency obviously still matters but as multiplayer advances, the games that value latency less will have a competitive advantage over the games that value latency more. You appeal to a significantly wider player base when you don't require the reflexes of a 14 year old boy.

This problem is slowly being attacked from multiple positions. It's Germany in April 1945.

Sure I can agree with that. That's actually preferable to me if that happens. I'm just isolating the issue to the present.

There's a lot of parallels between latency and framerate. You got all these people who game at 240fps. Why not just stop at 30fps? Some people don't even notice the difference. Personally, it just feels and looks better, I can react faster, and generally that's the case if strictly viewed with scientific and empirical data. However not everyone can actually benefit from it. Some hit the wall at 60, some at 120. You won't know until you try.

I play SF6 Master League on GeForce NOW.
And tons of FPS MP.

Is not suitable for E-sports stuff, perhaps, but with a good connection and ping is more than a viable way for consumers.

I know someone who hit challenger most of the season with 80 ping on League. He changed ISPs and installed fiber. He shot up to top 20 in 2 weeks.

I myself went from silver to diamond the same way. Home connection is shitty so I ditched it and played at an internet cafe with stable 8 ping versus fluctuating 50-100 ping. This is with my home PC able to play it at 120fps while in the cafe it was fucking 24fps trash grandma pc.

The point is if you're great at a game, you're great at it. However you can be better. Will this happen for everyone? No. Maybe the latency you're at is actually your physical limit. If you play poorly, no amount of reduced latency can fix your issue.

 

[El Muerto]

Steam Link- Never had any issues and it's gotten a lot of upgrades since it first released. Never have any issues with fighting games or souls likes when both ends are hardwired.
Gamepass- over cloud isnt bad but there is some minor input lag. Could be due to what ISP you have.
Look at your ISP broadband facts, it should tell you what your ping should be. Then add about 5ms per pieces of eq you got like routers, switches, hdmi switch, a/v receiver, etc.

 

[SHA]

Nordvpn?

 

[teokrazia]

Sure I can agree with that. That's actually preferable to me if that happens. I'm just isolating the issue to the present.

There's a lot of parallels between latency and framerate. You got all these people who game at 240fps. Why not just stop at 30fps? Some people don't even notice the difference. Personally, it just feels and looks better, I can react faster, and generally that's the case if strictly viewed with scientific and empirical data. However not everyone can actually benefit from it. Some hit the wall at 60, some at 120. You won't know until you try.


I know someone who hit challenger most of the season with 80 ping on League. He changed ISPs and installed fiber. He shot up to top 20 in 2 weeks.

I myself went from silver to diamond the same way. Home connection is shitty so I ditched it and played at an internet cafe with stable 8 ping versus fluctuating 50-100 ping. This is with my home PC able to play it at 120fps while in the cafe it was fucking 24fps trash grandma pc.

The point is if you're great at a game, you're great at it. However you can be better. Will this happen for everyone? No. Maybe the latency you're at is actually your physical limit. If you play poorly, no amount of reduced latency can fix your issue.

Recently I've subscribed a month to Boosteroid Ultra. My first approach with this service.
Games like Ghost of Tsushima, Ratchet and Clank, Elden Ring, Resident Evil 4 2023 runs like a charm, very near to GeForce NOW quality.
SF6 sucks balls. It's weird, it maybe runs at 60 FPS with a low ping, but on Boosteroid it feels like 40-50 ugly FPS, both visually and mechanically.
I still win alot of ranked matches, but I find the experience so unpleasant that it can go fuck itself.

 

[Schmendrick]

Local latency can't be beat. That's simply physics. But with a good infrastructure the latency increase from streaming can be very acceptable. We're far.....faaaaaaaar away from having such an infrastructure though.

 

[killatopak]

Recently I've subscribed a month to Boosteroid Ultra. My first approach with this service.
Games like Ghost of Tsushima, Ratchet and Clank, Elden Ring, Resident Evil 4 2023 runs like a charm, very near to GeForce NOW quality.
SF6 sucks balls. It's weird, it maybe runs at 60 FPS with a low ping, but on Boosteroid it feels like 40-50 ugly FPS, both visually and mechanically.
I still win alot of ranked matches, but I find the experience so unpleasant that it can go fuck itself.

I only ever used Xcloud and GFN so my experience on all cloud gaming is limited but just based on everything I saw and read GFN is still the best.

There's a lot of factors that can affect your feel and streaming just emphasizes it. Maybe Boosteroid is having packet loss. Maybe there's some issues with peer to peer connection using that service. Maybe the actual hardware itself is weaker than GFN's. Maybe the server you are connected is running multiple applications using the same hardware.

What you get wildly varies and you can't even fix it or find out if the issue is theirs or yours or if there is an issue at all and their service just sucks ass. Too many things you can't control.

 

[LazyParrot]

In my experience shooters that feel absolutely fine on controller can still be absolutely horrid when using a mouse, since that's a much more responsive input method. You get this weird effect where the game looks completely smooth, but controls like it's running at 1/4 the frame rate. I don't think that's ever going away.

If streaming ever becomes the default for games the industry will probably adapt by just making games in genres where lag isn't as much of a factor.

 

[Fess]

Look I have no issue with your experience. If you're satisfied with it fine, good for you. Just don't assume its the experience for everyone.

Yes, I tried it. Our official GFN servers are outside the country so excuse me for continuing to hammer the issue about distance.

The distance to servers matters. And your ethernet at home, wired/wifi.
But when did you try it and which subscription tier?

A lot has changed since the launch. More servers and the Ultra tier (RTX 4080) can supposedly push up to 240fps and can even do VRR/GSync and maintain 100fps in Cyberpunk 2077 with path tracing or something crazy like that.
Can't verify it unfortunately, no experience of even the former 3080 tier. But I got 13ms ping on founders, which is okay I think.

The issues I had when using it the last time was maintaining a smooth fps. There was some micro-stutter. But I never has any issues with input latency.

I wouldn't be surprised if playing Starfield at launch on GFN Ultra was better than Xbox since it was still 30fps on console then with console visuals and assumably 60fps on GFN with Ultra visuals.
I wish I could try the Ultra tier to check for myself. It's 50% right now… hmmm