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[Audiophile]

Quantum Entangled Routers

 

[ReyBrujo]

You can press buttons just before you need them, that would be enough.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

Yes, a dedicated piece of hardware.

 

[killatopak]

The distance to servers matters. And your ethernet at home, wired/wifi.
But when did you try it and which subscription tier?

A lot has changed since the launch. More servers and the Ultra tier (RTX 4080) can supposedly push up to 240fps and can even do VRR/GSync and maintain 100fps in Cyberpunk 2077 with path tracing or something crazy like that.
Can’t verify it unfortunately, no experience of even the former 3080 tier. But I got 13ms ping on founders, which is okay I think.

The issues I had when using it the last time was maintaining a smooth fps. There was some micro-stutter. But I never has any issues with input latency.

I wouldn’t be surprised if playing Starfield at launch on GFN Ultra was better than Xbox since it was still 30fps on console then with console visuals and assumably 60fps on GFN with Ultra visuals.
I wish I could try the Ultra tier to check for myself. It’s 50% right now… hmmm

Oh I have no doubt GFN can play games better than my own rig can. It use features that would downright make my own unplayable as mine isn't really top end.

Admittedly, I never tried the improved version of GFN but anecdotally I was getting 80-100 ping. I looked up this new Ultra tier and based on what I found the experience is definitely better but we still don't have local servers. Servers are closer though. Ping got reduced to around 50-60 with better hardware to boot. I do have fiber with wired connection and my router sitting right next to the PC so I have minimized local hardware latency as best as I could. Edit: Forgot to mention servers I could connect to were from NA. The new ones seem to be at Japan. I'm from SEA.

There is a place for streaming, it's just not mine. A lot of games I play extensively on PC thrive on mods such as Crusader King 2/3, Sims 4, Fallout, Stardew Valley, Heroes and M&M and Elder Scrolls. I also emulate older consoles. I tried streaming because I do want to try out games on the highest settings and typically do them for SP games.

I will say though that I'm not exactly the target audience so it's a bit harder to satisfy me mainly because I prefer physical media such as discs and cartridges.

 

[reezoo]

When I say solution, I mean that there is no practical difference in the gaming experience in twitchy games between streaming and playing on your local computer/console.

Or is it always going to be the case at the theoretical level, that we we have latency with streaming?

You can go faster then speed of light and be possible with near future tech so it will be a problem.

 

[Fess]

I will say though that I'm not exactly the target audience so it's a bit harder to satisfy me mainly because I prefer physical media such as discs and cartridges.

I understand but I think it’s worth keeping an eye on how it evolves. I think it can be good if you want to try out a game but don’t have the hardware required. A 4080 PC is like $3,000. That’s a decade of GFN Ultra subscription.

And you know maybe if more people tried streaming there would be less salt-based complaints about exclusives. You can almost always see the same people have harsh complaints when there is exclusivity, and you know it comes from a hardware bias. Why bother? Just stream it and drop the salt.

No Rest for the Wicked is on GFN, PC exclusive up til version 1.0 but accessed there, it’s a fantastic game. Cyberpunk with the PC exclusive maxed Ray-Tracing is there, Forza Horizon 5 is there, Xbox/PC exclusives. Starfield is there, with creation now adding mods, PC/Xbox exclusive. I assume Indiana Jones will be there, PC/Xbox exclusive. I think there are like 2000 titles or something in that range on GFN at this point. It’s not all but it’s a lot.

Negatives, besides possible server location based latency/stutter:
- You need to own the games.
That’s the biggest problem, you pay for the streaming AND the games. There are some free games, and some Gamepass games, but not many.
- There is a 8 hour play session limit.
Not a big problem if you have any sort of life but worth noting.
- There can be play queues on big releases.
Waiting to play a game can be a deal breaker. But I don’t know how bad that is now, I’ve only used the founders tier.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

When I say solution, I mean that there is no practical difference in the gaming experience in twitchy games between streaming and playing on your local computer/console.

Or is it always going to be the case at the theoretical level, that we we have latency with streaming?

No matter what tech advancement we got, there is one thing we need to understand; streaming is just having your computer in a different building from where you are.

That is actually why tech advancements won't help, because no matter how powerful the server computer, you are always better off having that same hardware in the room with you. Assuming the computer is the same tech level for both sides then the shorter distance is superior.

The best ping is no ping. You can hide the ping with tricks but the ping is there. And if we CAN take that away, we would have unlocked FTL and we are living in Futurama world. At that point you wouldn't need to worry about game streaming.

And that doesn't even go into the fact that it is CHEAPER to Own than to Rent. So Streaming cost you more money for an inferior experience. You are Renting when you Stream, and that is a waste of money.

 

[Jesb]

I can’t speak for multiplayer but GFN is pretty flawless for me most of the time.

 

[Dorfdad]

100% it can and already does in a lot of cases. Look at Nvidia Geforce Now which already has a lot of games that play with less latency than a local console.

Meanwhile, the premium version of GeForce Now can go as high as 240 Hz, implements Nvidia Reflex, and is powered by an RTX 4080 per user. Nvidia estimates end-to-end latency to be 66% lower than a local Xbox Series X.

Microsoft will soon implement Nvidia GeForce Now alongside Xbox Cloud Gaming for its first-party titles listed on Xbox.com

The Play With Cloud initiative now includes Nvidia's GeForce Now, which is known to turn around much higher image quality.

www.tomshardware.com

It could actually be even better with newer codecs, hardware devices, and and faster internet. All of which will be coming. There problem is in order to really do this providers have to really invest time and money into it. Not sure many will spend what's needed, but yes it can get a lot better!

 

[Fess]

no matter how powerful the server computer, you are always better off having that same hardware in the room with you. Assuming the computer is the same tech level for both sides

Sure but eventually server tech will surpass what most people have at home. We’re already at RTX4080 on Geforce Now. And once they tap into some AI super computer server we’ll play on calculators at home.
Also, 20ms added latency is nothing. Check your reaction time here:

Human Benchmark

humanbenchmark.com

What’s important is the framerate, that it’s stable without micro stutter, and image quality, no image artifacts from compression. There is work to do there.

 

[Salmonboy]

Yes there is! Don't!

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

Stay on GAF and you're safe.

Virginity must be protected at all costs

 

[BennyBlanco]

That’s absolutely disgusting. Where can I go to avoid seeing that type of thing?

I too need a direct link to this awful website so I know exactly what to type into the domain blocker.

Spoiler

you are gonna need a lot of VRAM and stablediffusion

 

[KungFucius]

All I can say is Gamepass Ultimate on Firestick in my house is not going to cut it. It is fine for single player games for kids.. For anything where a split second matters, it will not cut it. They need to improve. I can sense the delay and I have to use brainpower to tell myself its no big deal.

 

[Fafalada]

Or is it always going to be the case at the theoretical level, that we we have latency with streaming?

You can loosely break sources of latency into 3 things (frame render + encode, frame delivery&decode, remote input&simulation handling).
First two can effectively be eliminated with codecs that 'chase the beam' instead of transmitting entire frames in traditional fashion. Practical applications already exist in hardware wireless-video devices, and while translating it to a network host scenario has more issues to solve - it's not impossible, just - improbable.
The last one can't really be bypassed - but if software eventually gets written 'for' server runtimes it can be greatly minimized. The question that needs to be asked here is - would you be ok if future games are written specifically for 'server-side consoles' ie - there are no local options available anymore?

AI for a very insignificant computing time knows better how real-life is supposed to look and would practically give you path tracing for a fraction of power consumption and rendering requirements.

That's just not true though - on compute or output side. Also realtime processing has long since reached a point where rendering isn't the primary bottleneck for approximating 'real-life' - it's the simulation (which has barely advanced at all for two decades now).
And sure - that can also be done through AI but that's even more of a shitshow than poorly imagining pixels, and the reasons for why sim is stuck in games aren't really processing requirements to begin with.

You'll be looking through an AI's eyes

This part is definitely coming (well - one could argue it's already there, just conservative in application for now). Once personalized content is cracked - that will open the floodgates that will completely change how people discuss games (or any type of entertainment content really).

 

[SScorpio]

The Amazon Luna controller has the ability to connect to WiFi so your input is sent directly to the servers versus over Bluetooth to then be processed by the client and sent to the server.

Depending on where you are in location to the the data center, you could always have round trip times that are under a single frame. Going by the controller latency spreadsheet created for the MiSTer project, there are wireless controllers with higher latency than that.

 

[Prekk]

I'm not an expert but I think it has? It was definitely possible to play online games on 56K but it was a lot more prone to latency and just inconsistencies.

Nah. I distinctly remember playing on many servers with a sub-10ms ping with an isdn connection up until 2001.

 

[Closer]

That’s absolutely disgusting. Where can I go to avoid seeing that type of thing?

You can play MW3 Team Deathmatch at work via remote playing on Xbox Series X at home.

 

[Shake Your Rump]

Has latency improved at all over the last 30 years?

I lived in one of the two Roadrunner cable modem pilot areas in 1997. I had pings of 30 while even the best modem connections were at around 150. It was great being a "low ping bastard" in a time when it usually required ISDN or a T1.

 

[Portugeezer]

In theory, I guess with infinite compute power you could pre-calculate and stream in the background and "store" every future outcome to the subpixel, which would allow you to offset the delay of your current input and display the "stored" next frame and NPC reaction for that input.

 

[Azelover]

Not for every kind of game and not for everybody. From what I understand, depending on your location you will get a better or worse experience. So it's not a democracy.

However, some games can be designed around the latency issues in a way that the delays won't matter. It can work, but the gameplay has to be created with streaming in mind.