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[elsk]

Why is every goddamn country in so much debt? Just stop spending so much when you can't afford it!

Welcome to capitalism?

We obviously can't keep going with the world economy the way it is right now. Capitalism is going to explote sooner or later, and we hopefully find a better way than the actual capitalism.

 

[TheExodu5]

Gonna be good for importing into Canada!

 

[Ace 8095]

Our system is based on debt. When you create money you create debt for the money. If there was no debt there would be no money at all.

That's not correct. Without debt there would be no money multiplier. According to FRED there is currently no money multiplier anyway as the market is saturated.

 

[flsh]

Our system is based on debt. When you create money you create debt for the money. If there was no debt there would be no money at all.

Some countries are able to have less debt yet higher quality of life and higher growth.
Look at the Scandinavian countries (and Finland, if you don't count them as Scandinavians) as an example.

 

[Kosmo]

We're all headed this way.

...would allow me to quickly pay off my house

 

[Escape Goat]

Zimbabwe probably has the most fucked up economy on the planet. Can you even still call it an economy?

 

[big_z]

if every country becomes poor don't we just hit reset?

no the US and europe go third party while other countries take over the top spot.


the bean counters can try and fuck around with the numbers all they want the economy is completely fucked. thats what happens when your run shit like a spoiled teen with a limitless creditcard.

im guessing the solution will be this:

 

[Goldrusher]

Meanwhile, in Australia, we're laughing at you all.

green = rich
red = poor

 

[DragonKnight]

Isn't this shit in the bible and now the Antichrist is supposed to come and unite Europe and all that good stuff?

Edit: Any takers?

 

[ClosingADoor]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Cumulative_Current_Account_Balance.png/800px-Cumulative_Current_Account_Balance.png

green = rich
red = poor

Means nothing if it's just totals and not per citizen.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

green = rich
red = poor

Yes, your graph is amazing because clearly Australia is economically worse off than fucking Greece. If you have a point, please make it, because that graph is not even close to showing a full picture. For instance, "current account balance" (what you're showing there) has been consistent in Australia for decades, but the economy has still been growing very healthily for the last 20 years.

 

[spoonztt]

Isn't this shit in the bible and now the Antichrist is supposed to come and unite Europe and all that good stuff?

Edit: Any takers?

Don't forget peace in the middle east! But yeah it is.

Coming from the Trinidad I'm surprised that we're in the green.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm going into one of the most consistently employable fields on the planet, so I've prepared myself as best I can really.

 

[Kabouter]

Don't forget peace in the middle east! But yeah it is.

Coming from the Trinidad I'm surprised that we're in the green.

Isn't Trinidad and Tobago a significant petroleum exporter?

 

[Marleyman]

I am ready for the REAL sequel to Red Dawn.

 

[speculawyer]

I still think everyone seems to be missing a big factor: oil. Our modern economy runs on oil and it went from $20/barrel in 2000 to $115/barrel (Brent) today. That is just a huge increase in a primary feedstock of our economic system. The left & right argue whether more or less government spending is needed . . . but neither plan does anything about the price of oil. Nothing can. Higher oil prices increases the cost of living for everyone everywhere. Thus, we all have our standard of living reduced. Period. We just can't seem to deal with that fact since a global resource constriction without a decent alternative is not something we have had to deal with . . . ever.


Now quote my avatar.

 

[gwarm01]

Never discount the ingenuity of mankind. We'll be able to overcome and obstacle in our path if we can manage to not kill ourselves first.

 

[speculawyer]

Our system is based on debt. When you create money you create debt for the money. If there was no debt there would be no money at all.

Yeah, this. Money is loaned into existence. Thus, as more money is created, the net debt is always increasing. But generally, that is not a problem as long as everything keeps growing.

But everything is not growing now. And that is good because infinite growth is technically impossible. But we haven't figured out how to adapt our system to run well w/o endless growth. We need to figure it out.

Never discount the ingenuity of mankind. We'll be able to overcome and obstacle in our path if we can manage to not kill ourselves first.

But our ingenuity cannot violate the laws of physics or thermodynamics. We have been able to kick ass for the last couple centuries since we were able to tap into a massive store of bottled up energy in the form of fossil fuels. And although those fossil fuels are no where near running out (they won't run out in our lifetimes), we did use up the cheap easy-to-access stuff first. The remaining stuff is more & more expensive. Oil is the only one we are having problem with right now and the problems have only just begun . . . yet look how bad things got.

 

[spoonztt]

Isn't Trinidad and Tobago a significant petroleum exporter?

No we're not, we actually have to import oil from Venezuela to keep our refinery running. If anything we're making money from Natural Gas.

The reason I'm surprised is that the previous government squandered billions of dollars on various projects and blatant corruption in their tenure which has left the country in a somewhat bad situation financially. Right now trade unions are up in arms vs the Govt, there's a situation with a local conglomerate among other things. Doesn't help that this Govt doesn't seem to have a clue either.

 

[Scrow]

No, everybody dies.

maybe that's what he means by "reset"

 

[hamchan]

Meanwhile, in Australia, we're laughing at you all.

As another Australian I have to say this post doesn't speak for all of us. If the US falls then everyone is kinda boned to varying degrees.

 

[Xavien]

I still think everyone seems to be missing a big factor: oil. Our modern economy runs on oil and it went from $20/barrel in 2000 to $115/barrel (Brent) today. That is just a huge increase in a primary feedstock of our economic system. The left & right argue whether more or less government spending is needed . . . but neither plan does anything about the price of oil. Nothing can. Higher oil prices increases the cost of living for everyone everywhere. Thus, we all have our standard of living reduced. Period. We just can't seem to deal with that fact since a global resource constriction without a decent alternative is not something we have had to deal with . . . ever.


Now quote my avatar.

Nuclear Power and Electric Cars/Trucks would solve a good deal of this problem, but so many people look at the short term that it'll never happen in time.

The system itself is not only at fault, it's the crippling shortterm-ism that comes with that system.

Additionally, those living under the delusion that their economy will survive if the US and Europe crash are grossly misinformed, if the US and EU go down, everyone goes down, there are no exceptions. The wonders and benefits of global trade has made everything so entangled that we're all in this together.

 

[Kabouter]

I still think everyone seems to be missing a big factor: oil. Our modern economy runs on oil and it went from $20/barrel in 2000 to $115/barrel (Brent) today. That is just a huge increase in a primary feedstock of our economic system. The left & right argue whether more or less government spending is needed . . . but neither plan does anything about the price of oil. Nothing can. Higher oil prices increases the cost of living for everyone everywhere. Thus, we all have our standard of living reduced. Period. We just can't seem to deal with that fact since a global resource constriction without a decent alternative is not something we have had to deal with . . . ever.


Now quote my avatar.

Heavy gas taxes, the kind that have pushed the current price of petrol to around €1.75 a liter (Some $9.40 per gallon) here do, at least in part, force the economy to adjust to higher oil prices sooner though.

No we're not, we actually have to import oil from Venezuela to keep our refinery running. If anything we're making money from Natural Gas.

I must have been confused with natural gas exports then, my bad.

Nuclear Power and Electric Cars/Trucks would solve a good deal of this problem, but so many people look at the short term that it'll never happen in time.

The system itself is not only at fault, it's the crippling shortterm-ism that comes with that system.

Additionally, those living under the delusion that their economy will survive if the US and Europe crash are grossly misinformed, if the US and EU go down, everyone goes down, there are no exceptions. The wonders and benefits of global trade has made everything so entangled that we're all in this together.

I'm pretty sure the effects on the North-Korean economy will be limited, much like the USSR dodged the Great Depression bullet. Not that it isn't still a massive shithole of course.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

i have a couple quadrillion of these puppies at home (no joke), just waiting for the day that they regain their value!

Too bad they will probably just be dissolving the currency altogether, if they haven't already.

 

[Xavien]

I'm pretty sure the effects on the North-Korean economy will be limited, much like the USSR dodged the Great Depression bullet. Not that it isn't still a massive shithole of course.

If China crashes because of the US and EU crash, North Korea will crash, even if its a giant shithole with no real economy to speak of, the political elite in that country still import stuff from china.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Too bad they will probably just be dissolving the currency altogether, if they haven't already.

I believe they ditched them a few years ago. I read an article on how they're big collector items now though, worth 3-5 dollars.

 

[Sennorin]

Yay capitalism...right? Just realize, world, that money and how we treat it is what´s wrong. Of course, the rich won´t accept that since it benefits them.

Is this a Wii thread in disguise?

Had me lol much, thank you.

Meanwhile, in Australia, we're laughing at you all.

Laugh as long as you can before those monster spiders eat you!

 

[goomba]

I must say i am worried about this, mainly because many of the doomsayers pre 2008, who were ridiculed and ignored are the same ones predicting things to get worse

Not that theres anything we can do about it...

 

[sans_pants]

Yay capitalism...right? Just realize, world, that money and how we treat it is what´s wrong. Of course, the rich won´t accept that since it benefits them.

its not the system, its the people who run it

 

[HylianTom]

I must say i am worried about this, mainly because many of the doomsayers pre 2008, who were ridiculed and ignored are the same ones predicting things to get worse

Not that theres anything we can do about it...

<----

I used to be incredibly politically aware, active, etc. on the national level. But I've largely given-up hope on that; our problems are already "baked into the cake" and unavoidable. These times will still be regarded as "the good ol' days," and the coming decades will be an incredibly interesting time to be alive.

Otherwise, individual/family preparation is the best thing you can do.

 

[Escape Goat]

i bought some water and canned goods over the weekend.

I think i am ready.

 

[elrechazado]

I've got food and water storage ready. Bring it on.

 

[Conciliator]

I am actually a little concerned about the debt ceiling thing. It is unsettling to know that some of the most powerful people in the world are willing to pretend like they don't realize raising the debt ceiling is necessary so that they might pander to their constituency. They'll break before the deadline though...at least I hope.

Beyond that: I'm not sure how far back perpetual economic apocalypse goes, but as a 26-year-old I've heard my entire life that the economy is about the implode. And the rapture is about to happen. Or just the end is near in unspecific terms. Ya'll be really hungry for some societal collapse. Perhaps you're hoping for escape.

We've been in terrible debt before. We got out. Ironically, the state of the debt/surplus appears to have more to do with the state of the economy, rather than vice versa. We ran a surplus in the 90s, and we'll run one again. And then we'll run a huge debt and face imminent economic collapse, and then we'll run a surplus again. Or not, anything could happen at any time, but the world's best economists can't say that with any certainty, and you guys definitely can't.

THAT SAID, I don't have a car payment, my house payments are low because I have 30% equity in my home and refinanced, and I save a lot of money. I'll be as set as anyone in the middle class.

 

[water_wendi]

At least we have clean water and cable tv.

 

[flsh]

Nuclear Power and Electric Cars/Trucks would solve a good deal of this problem, but so many people look at the short term that it'll never happen in time.

The system itself is not only at fault, it's the crippling shortterm-ism that comes with that system.

Additionally, those living under the delusion that their economy will survive if the US and Europe crash are grossly misinformed, if the US and EU go down, everyone goes down, there are no exceptions. The wonders and benefits of global trade has made everything so entangled that we're all in this together.

Not to downplay alternatives to the internal combustion engine, but there is a big problem with that too. Our economies run on credit and financing just as much as they run on oil. Petrol is like financing for a car - if you are going to own a car for 3 years and it will consume, say, 3,000 liters during that time (I honestly have no idea how accurate that is - I pulled the number from thin air so please treat it as such). the price of the car is how much you bought it for + 3,000 liters of petrol*price of said petrol. With an electric car, the price of the battery is part of the car and so the price of the car is mostly front loaded. How many people would have the money to pay for the mileage upfront? Would banks be able to finance that for customers?
Electric cars are a beautiful model in a very low scale environment. But what happens when you have to sell 20 million cars a year and they are all electric with the price of mileage as part of the car? It suddenly becomes too much money to subsidize\help finance.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Not to downplay alternatives to the internal combustion engine, but there is a big problem with that too. Our economies run on credit and financing just as much as they run on oil. Petrol is like financing for a car - if you are going to own a car for 3 years and it will consume, say, 3,000 liters during that time (I honestly have no idea how accurate that is - I pulled the number from thin air so please treat it as such). the price of the car is how much you bought it for + 3,000 liters of petrol*price of said petrol. With an electric car, the price of the battery is part of the car and so the price of the car is mostly front loaded. How many people would have the money to pay for the mileage upfront? Would banks be able to finance that for customers?
Electric cars are a beautiful model in a very low scale environment. But what happens when you have to sell 20 million cars a year and they are all electric with the price of mileage as part of the car? It suddenly becomes too much money to subsidize\help finance.

What? You buy a new battery?

 

[Sennorin]

its not the system, its the people who run it

Funnily, though, that is the very same answer you get from people who are pro-communism.

 

[flsh]

What? You buy a new battery?

The idea with an electric (or plug at home hybrid, for that matter) is that you buy the car with the battery, which costs a lot of money (and will add the the price of the car, obviously). You than pay significantly less (especially outside of the US, which enjoys very low taxes on petrol compared to other parts of the world) on mileage since electricity costs are far lower than petrol. You still pay a lot more upfront, however, which may cause a problem.

 

[SapientWolf]

That's not correct. Without debt there would be no money multiplier. According to FRED there is currently no money multiplier anyway as the market is saturated.

Maybe on the macro level, but fractional-reserve banking still exists.

The article seems kind of FUDdy. I don't see hyperinflation happening without a corresponding increase in wages to enable it. Wages are definitely not going up these days.

 

[UltimaPooh]

The idea with an electric (or plug at home hybrid, for that matter) is that you buy the car with the battery, which costs a lot of money (and will add the the price of the car, obviously). You than pay significantly less (especially outside of the US, which enjoys very low taxes on petrol compared to other parts of the world) on mileage since electricity costs are far lower than petrol. You still pay a lot more upfront, however, which may cause a problem.

Why would you pay more upfront aside from it being a new technology? Once electric cars are mass produced like regular cars they should stay the same in price. The only losers would be gasoline companies.

 

[(._.)]

Holy shit at the cow engraved on it. I want one so bad.

How much is this worth? I'll probably have to track one down.

$0 - USD

 

[spermatic cord]

I got my

and

 

[TxdoHawk]

Max out your cards b4 2012!

I'm sure credit card companies would find a way to keep consumers bent over, even in the financial apocalypse predicted. Anyway, more importantly:

I got my

I have this exact pair of Oakleys, same colorway and all. Internet high-five!

 

[sans_pants]

Funnily, though, that is the very same answer you get from people who are pro-communism.

sure, power corrupts and all that. but you can also argue that communism is like fighting human nature

 

[exarkun]

I have a sinking feeling that US student debt will outlast an kind of financial armageddon unfortunately...if not, then fuck yes!

I still think we are due for an upheaval for the greater portion of people's student debt. Partial forgiveness, claiming bankruptcy, or at least death must be allowed to forgive it. Wasn't there a thread talking about how student debt has passed credit card debt? If the US gov't forgave some student debt (with job requirements or salary requirements) then we would see such a surge in spending/quality of life.

 

[iidesuyo]

Communism and Capitalism are the same. Both sound great on paper but in the end 90% of the population are caught in poverty.

Find something in between... maybe social democracy, or social market economy. That has worked great in some European countries.