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[Foffy]

Because none of that is true. There have always been people who are not competitive in the labor market, and prior to capitalism this was basically everyone. The fact that a different group of people is now non-competitive does not mean this state was created by capitalism.

Don't know what morals have to do with the market, it's impossible for a non-living entity to be either moral or immoral. Certainly true that it has never truly been free, but it is also true that the closer to freedom that we approach, the better things seem to function.

I would say that free market capitalism is the only economic system that is compatible with morality though.

If you are denying the existence and causes of the rise of a precariat class, you really are beyond hope regarding discussion.

Let's ignore the rise of neonationalism in today's climate, while we're at it. After all, it's connections to the growing aforementioned class must be myth.

Labor doesn't pay for most anymore. Are you going to ignore this fact as well? That the Great Decoupling is a fantasy?

 

[Fenderputty]

So...not socialism?

I mean in it's truest sense, no. Are we now pretending that variants of socialism that include a market structure don't exist?

Socialist Purists?

 

[Fenderputty]

If you are denying the existence and causes of the rise of a precariat class, you really are beyond hope regarding discussion.

The precariat class is better off than serfdom. That's his point.

 

[Foffy]

The precariat class is better off than serfdom. That's his point.

That's like saying having terminal cancer is better than AIDS.

It's such a low bar it's a non-bar.

 

[iamblades]

If you are denying the existence and causes of the rise of a precariat class, you really are beyond hope regarding discussion.

Let's ignore the rise of neonationalism in today's climate, while we're at it. After all, it's connections to the growing aforementioned class must be myth.

Labor doesn't pay for most anymore. Are you going to ignore this fact as well? That the Great Decoupling is a fantasy?

It absolutely is:

https://www.nber.org/digest/oct08/w13953.html

 

[KingSnake]

Capitalism has no qualms with using the political tool of Fascism to discipline a working class and liquidate a bourgeoisie class if their political will doesn't line up with Capital's end goal.

Can you point out what historic event are you referring by this? Are you really trying to say that Hitler and Mussolini were just some tools?

 

[Foffy]

It absolutely is:

https://www.nber.org/digest/oct08/w13953.html

Then why does nearly 40% of people in the US economy make less than $20,000 a year when productivity is at record highs, but wage growth from that labor has mostly frozen?

Are you going to give me some bullshit on "they're paid what they're worth" sort of Libertarian sociopathy? The system is presently exclusive, not inclusive. We don't even need to talk about the issues of rentierism or how most of the gains post-recession have been to the top.

The clanger here is that the source you used was also dated for 2008, during the Great Recession. It's not even of this decade...it predates the studies and even the term the Great Decoupling.

 

[akira28]

the problem is the free market. the undefined unregulated free market.

 

[teh_pwn]

Capitalism/social mixed economies are by far the best. Remove either and things go to shit. If I had to choose one, it would be capitalism because while it's messy as shit overall it leads to progress.

 

[iamblades]

Then why does nearly 40% of people in the US economy make less than $20,000 a year when productivity is at record highs, but wage growth from that labor has mostly frozen?



Are you going to give me some bullshit on "they're paid what they're worth" sort of Libertarian sociopathy? The system is presently exclusive, not inclusive.

The clanger here is that the source you used was also dated for 2008, during the Great Recession. It's not even of this decade...it predates the studies and even the term the Great Decoupling.

How are facts indicative of sociopathy? If they produced substantially more value than that, they would be paid accordingly.

I picked that source because of it's impartiality, but the trend has continued, you can look up the data on the BLS website for yourself. Total compensation has remained basically in line with productivity growth, but a larger and larger share of compensation is going to benefits instead of wages, which naturally impacts people on the lower end of the wage scale more than others.

 

[Foffy]

How are facts indicative of sociopathy? If they produced substantially more value than that, they would be paid accordingly.

I picked that source because of it's impartiality, but the trend has continued, you can look up the data on the BLS website for yourself. Total compensation has remained basically in line with productivity growth, but a larger and larger share of compensation is going to benefits instead of wages, which naturally impacts people on the lower end of the wage scale more than others.

This doesn't fit, because productivity and income have been decoupled since the 1970s. Your source is frankly wrong, but that's what I would imagine for someone who worked under Ronald Reagan and supported neoliberal commodification of Social Security with George W. Bush by wanting to privatize public services. Of course such a person would hold similar views as the one he does. The market "knows best."

Is this graph just a DevianArt exercise? What about their arguments that technology will -- and has -- increased this problem via the gig economy? Is the infinite job tree going to fix this?

EDIT: You said the BLS data would back your arguments regarding trends. I think you need to reassess.

Gee, sure looks like that Great Decoupling thing that doesn't seem to exist. Huh.

 

[Oersted]

Not many people are in favor of making Saudi Arabia an enemy either. And they're certainly in favor of cheaper gasoline.



I wasn't actually contesting that at all, the opposite in fact. There have been far fewer lives lost in war since gloabalization/democracy spread since the last world war. My point was that a lot of the problems that people find with the current state of the world are a result of democracy in action, that also goes for the positives.

First blaming democracy for the Iraq war, than arguing noone(who?) wants Saudi Arabia as enemy because cheap gasoline.

Oh the double irony.

 

[iamblades]

This doesn't fit, because productivity and income have been decoupled since the 1970s. Your source is frankly wrong, but that's what I would imagine for someone who worked under Ronald Reagan and supported neoliberal commodification of Social Security with George W. Bush by wanting to privatize public services. Of course such a person would hold similar views as the one he does.



Is this graph just a DevianArt exercise? What about their arguments that technology will -- and has -- increased this problem via the gig economy? Is the infinite job tree going to fix this?

Income is not total compensation.

Total compensation corrected for inflation has tracked within +/- 10 % of productivity growth.

Like I said, you can check the BLS stats(wish the way they organized their data wasn't such a goddamn mess, though):

Total compensation increase by quarter:
2007 3.2 3.1 3.1 3.0
2008 3.2 3.0 2.8 2.4
2009 1.9 1.5 1.2 1.2
2010 1.6 1.9 2.0 2.1
2011 2.0 2.3 2.1 2.2
2012 2.1 1.8 1.9 1.8
2013 1.9 1.9 1.9 2.0
2014 1.7 2.0 2.3 2.3
2015 2.8 1.9 1.9 1.9
2016 1.8 2.4 2.3 2.2
2017 2.3

Labor productivity by year:

2007 96.040
2008 96.760
2009 100.000
2010 103.272
2011 103.393
2012 104.253
2013 104.559
2014 105.392
2015 106.392
2016 106.604

Granted you'd have to do some more analysis to actually compare these numbers given that one's an increment and one's an index and hoe you measure inflation can be a complicating factor, but it is clear that the idea that compensation has not been increasing is a complete myth.

 

[JordanN]

Capitalism sounds nice until one guy manages to own 50x the wealth of everyone else, and continues to expand on it.

I feel the next step in human society shouldn't be a great concern for money. Or rather, certain individuals have so much money now, why aren't we forcing them to slowly release it back to the public instead of hoarding it to themselves?

It's either that, or tax the fuck out of companies that are worth billions.

 

[Foffy]

Income is not total compensation.

Total compensation corrected for inflation has tracked within +/- 10 % of productivity growth.

Like I said, you can check the BLS stats(wish the way they organized their data wasn't such a goddamn mess, though):



Granted you'd have to do some more analysis to actually compare these numbers given that one's an increment and one's an index and hoe you measure inflation can be a complicating factor, but it is clear that the idea that compensation has not been increasing is a complete myth.

I suppose you are assuming the "not been increasing" remark to my remark of "frozen." I can concede to that remark on my incorrect choice of wording, if that's what you're challenging.

That said, the BLS does seem to have some data emphasizing this fake Great Decoupling thing. Quite a few of their graphs show breaks at similar timelines as the ones I've already posted, which I assume you assert are non-canon interpretations. Would I be correct in this assumption?

 

[CornBurrito]

Ah, these threads in which the place with the highest standard of living anywhere in human history

By exploiting developing nations.

 

[iamblades]

I suppose you are assuming the "not been increasing" remark to my remark of "frozen." I can concede to that remark on my incorrect choice of wording, if that's what you're challenging.

That said, the BLS does seem to have some data emphasizing this fake Great Decoupling thing. Quite a few of their graphs show breaks at similar timelines as the ones I've already posted, which I assume you assert are non-canon interpretations. Would I be correct in this assumption?

Any comparison that uses wages and not total cost of compensation is misleading, if not completely disingenuous.

What matters to the employer is how much it costs them to employ someone, not the number that is printed on the paycheck. Solely focusing on wages while ignoring the giant increase in benefit spending, especially healthcare, is not exactly being honest.

 

[CornBurrito]

Any comparison that uses wages and not total cost of compensation is misleading, if not completely disingenuous.

What matters to the employer is how much it costs them to employ someone, not the number that is printed on the paycheck. Solely focusing on wages while ignoring the giant increase in benefit spending, especially healthcare, is not exactly being honest.

Why has healthcare spending increased so much?

 

[iamblades]

Why has healthcare spending increased so much?

The better question would be what isn't increasing healthcare costs. There are about a billion different causes.

 

[CornBurrito]

Greed evolved as a natural reaction to scarcity. Remove scarcity and human nature will change.

Food scarcity is gone.

 

[Kill3r7]

No since I have to encounter another system that does it better.

 

[gutter_trash]

People forget how life was hard hard several generations ago

 

[black_13]

Capitalism has it's problems as well but the best solution I see is a mix of socialism and capitalism. Healthcare should not be run by corporations cause they will care more about their bottom dollar than human lives.

 

[nomis]

capital keeps getting siphoned out of the market and into ever inflating offshore accounts of the mega rich to ensure generational wealth and people still think capitalism is working...

 

[JordanN]

People forget how life was hard hard several generations ago

Depends.

Agrarian society still sounds badass. Grow your own crops, own a big farm, and hunt and trade animals.

And everyone is equal. There's no CEO of Corn to pay you 5 cents an hour while he bribes other farmers to keep their crop production low so you're forced to pick up the slack.

 

[akira28]

Depends.

Agrarian society still sounds badass. Grow your crops, own a big farm, and hunt animals.

And everyone is equal. There's no CEO of Corn to pay you 5 cents an hour while he bribes other farmers to keep their crop production low so you're forced to pick up the slack.

people complaining that the system is rigged "oh, would you prefer to go back to living in caves? is that what you want?"

fuck. people just want to improve the fucked up parts of the system that leave so many people behind. But suggest one change and you're trying to destroy the system that probably doesn't benefit the accusers as much as they think it does.

 

[Fenderputty]

That's like saying having terminal cancer is better than AIDS.

It's such a low bar it's a non-bar.

Sure, but the point still stands. Socialism wasn't going to save us from the feudal system and capitalism dug us out of that ditch. Eventually we will make the jump to socialism like the transition of the past, but I don't believe we're there yet.

Food scarcity is gone.

Food isn't the only scarce resource.

 

[damisa]

Depends.

Agrarian society still sounds badass. Grow your own crops, own a big farm, and hunt and trade animals.

And everyone is equal. There's no CEO of Corn to pay you 5 cents an hour while he bribes other farmers to keep their crop production low so you're forced to pick up the slack.

As someone who tried farming in a third world country this couldn't be more wrong. Farming is awful, back breaking work. I'd much rather work at Walmart or pick up garbage, it was awful

 

[CornBurrito]

Food isn't the only scarce resource.

Naturally.

 

[CornBurrito]

As someone who tried farming in a third world country this couldn't be more wrong. Farming is awful, back breaking work. I'd much rather work at Walmart or pick up garbage, it was awful

Meanwhile our system by nature depends on keeping people poor enough to do a lot of the labor we're dependent on for our daily luxurious lives.

People are so quick to believe that McDonalds workers in their 30s deserve to be homeless and starve to death (because thats what the market pays them, so too bad they deserve their fate), and yet what are we to do once all fast food workers have perished? Well I suppose automation solves that, but human life ends up so devalued.

 

[JordanN]

As someone who tried farming in a third world country this couldn't be more wrong. Farming is awful, back breaking work. I'd much rather work at Walmart or pick up garbage, it was awful

This quote sums up my feelings why it's not better.

The move to capitalism is basically socialism for the rich. The rich will never have to worry about their lives because all the poor people at the bottom who struggle paycheck to paycheck are doing all the work for them while getting a fake illusion the society they're living in is actually great for them when ultimately, they're just pawns to be exploited by those above them.

 

[7DollarHagane]

Socialism is basically that episode of Simpsons Halloween of horror where Lisa wishes for peace and the aliens take over with a nail board.

Grass is always greener, etc. Nothing in this world will be perfect but I'd rather have a greedy upper class than a government with too much control.

Basically no matter what powerful people are going to oppress the weak, that's how this world works. In the end almost anyone would screw over everyone else to get themelves ahead. And if you won't, the next person will.

Whether it's a capitalist market that screws you over or a communist one, at least the capitalist one gives a goal to work toward and ability to improve your lost in life.

 

[Foffy]

Socialism is basically that episode of Simpsons Halloween of horror where Lisa wishes for peace and the aliens take over with a nail board.

Grass is always greener, etc. Nothing in this world will be perfect but I'd rather have a greedy upper class than a government with too much control.

Basically no matter what powerful people are going to oppress the weak, that's how this world works. In the end almost anyone would screw over everyone else to get themelves ahead. And if you won't, the next person will.

Whether it's a capitalist market that screws you over or a communist one, at least the capitalist one gives a goal to work toward and ability to improve your lost in life.

LOL what?

Survival mode is not a goal or something to "improve" upon. It's something to desperately try to maintain. Mix that with social mobility being particularly poor in places like America, just what exactly are you improving beyond myths and illusions of progress and prosperity?

You can criticize other isms, but you don't need to peddle bullshit to defend one of them.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

Capitalism worked better before automation and globalization. Now checks and balances are needed if we don't want to end up with a worldwide serfdom by 2100.

You sure? People seem to forget the industrial revolution...

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

Socialism is basically that episode of Simpsons Halloween of horror where Lisa wishes for peace and the aliens take over with a nail board.

Grass is always greener, etc. Nothing in this world will be perfect but I'd rather have a greedy upper class than a government with too much control.

Basically no matter what powerful people are going to oppress the weak, that's how this world works. In the end almost anyone would screw over everyone else to get themelves ahead. And if you won't, the next person will.

Whether it's a capitalist market that screws you over or a communist one, at least the capitalist one gives a goal to work toward and ability to improve your lost in life.

yea. Show some receipts.

 

[patapuf]

Depends.

Agrarian society still sounds badass. Grow your own crops, own a big farm, and hunt and trade animals.

And everyone is equal. There's no CEO of Corn to pay you 5 cents an hour while he bribes other farmers to keep their crop production low so you're forced to pick up the slack.

You have never worked a day on a farm if you think it's badass. That's not an 8 hour workday you are facing.

Especially if you think everyone is equal in an agrarian society.

 

[Makai]

People forget how life was hard hard several generations ago

Yeah, do you guys not have grandparents?

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

Capitalism is better than anything else we have created to date. To say that capitalism is a problem is completely mental.

People have problems. People bring problems into any economic system you can create.

I'd rather live in a nation of decentralized executives whose sole interests is money than in a nation led by a tyrant whose sole interest is power through any means.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Socialism is dangerous. Socialism is untenable; how can a state decide how millions of people get what?

Capitalism > Socialism

period

 

[Tarextherex]

Capitalism is better than anything else we have created to date. To say that capitalism is a problem is completely mental.

People have problems. People bring problems into any economic system you can create.

I'd rather live in a nation of decentralized executives whose sole interests is money than in a nation led by a tyrant whose sole interest is power through any means.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Socialism is dangerous. Socialism is untenable; how can a state decide how millions of people get what?

Capitalism > Socialism

period

I hope this is sarcasm

Americans thinking USSR when they hear about socialism always makes me smh

 

[Night Angel]

I hope this is sarcasm

Americans thinking USSR when they hear about socialism always makes me smh

It'd help if someone could maybe give us an example of socialism that's done better than the majority (or even some/many) of 1st world capitalist countries.

Theoretical structures that haven't produced better results should not be bandied about as better alternatives to actual systems that have, by almost every measure, improved QoL around the globe.

 

[mrklaw]

There seems to be an intentional confusion in the article between capitalism as an economic ideology and the social systems of different countries, which are political ideologies.

You can have capitalism and a decent social system in the same place. It's a matter of political will. Which is in the end a matter of popular will. And just to tackle one of the proposals in the article, Swiss people rejected in a referendum (with 77% to 23%) a guaranteed basic income for all.

So maybe before blaming everything on the capitalism, look at the people first.

Those places with decent social systems - do they still import products from countries that provide cheap labour? So they're happy to exploit other countries' people to provide a nice standard of living for locals.

 

[miller.skippins]

capitalism can work but we need to get lobbying out of the government itself....

the way how the current US administrations works....it's basically stringed by big lobbying corporations....in terms of climate change (Oil companies), Net neutrality (Telco), social spending (banks), medical facilities (Pharmaceuticals), gun control, etc....

Is the government still in 'control' or are they just doing the bidding of the big companies?

 

[Lime]

Ah, these threads in which the place with the highest standard of living anywhere in human history is referred to as a "shithole."

Imagine telling this to someone homeless, someone who works 3 minimum wage jobs to survive every day, someone who has to die because they can't afford health insurance, or even someone living in Flint, MI.

Maybe you have it nice, but for millions of people, life isn't that sweet.

 

[neorej]

I'm ready, I just don't think it is the problem. Humanity is the problem. Whether you live in socialism, capitalism, communism, Marxism, humans will always find ways to be shitty to other people, especially for their own benefit.

 

[Night Angel]

Imagine telling this to someone homeless, someone who works 3 minimum wage jobs to survive every day, someone who has to die because they can't afford health insurance, or even someone living in Flint, MI.

Maybe you have it nice, but for millions of people, life isn't that sweet.

And yet on average people are better off here than most of the rest of the world.

There are people living in abject poverty in every nation on earth. Every society has inequality. Focusing on their experience alone rather than looking at the entire picture does nothing to add to the discussion.

That's not to say that America is perfect. Fr from it: I think we have a terrible health care system and too much military spending (which could be used to alleviate some of the issues with our health care system). There's a strong bent of racism to how our government's systems interact with minorities. Our current setup of Crony Capitalism (giving corporations control over lawmaking via one-sided lobbying campaigns and bribes dressed up as donations, among other things) leads to shitty business practices screwing over citizens for profit. I'm sure I could list a ton of things we could do better if I wasn't about to go to sleep.

But that's not the point of this thread, is it? I don't see any of those issues as inherent flaws of capitalism.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I'd rather live in a nation of decentralized executives whose sole interests is money than in a nation led by a tyrant whose sole interest is power through any means.

That's a heck of a false dichotomy.

 

[KingSnake]

I hope this is sarcasm

Americans thinking USSR when they hear about socialism always makes me smh

What country are you thinking about when you talk about socialism?

 

[patapuf]

Imagine telling this to someone homeless, someone who works 3 minimum wage jobs to survive every day, someone who has to die because they can't afford health insurance, or even someone living in Flint, MI.

Maybe you have it nice, but for millions of people, life isn't that sweet.

I mean, you can go to countries who are actually poor and tell people there how life is hard in western countries and how poor we in the West are.

That's billions of people, not millions, that will give you the side eye.

Just because there's poor people in the western societies too doesn't mean they aren't among the best places on earth to live with the highest living standart. The world is bigger than what we want to improve in western societies.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

The problem with this discussion is that developed nations differ greatly. For example, wealth distribution, social security systems, workers rights and freedom to access education isn't the same from country to country. So it's important to specify which country you're talking about when you say capitalism does or doesn't work.

I think the economic/social systems in place in America leave more people behind and vulnerable than the economic system of the U.K. The U.K. could do with a more compassionate government for sure, but our social security nets are stronger, so I think capitalism kinda works here to an extent. I'd rather have what we have with no austerity and some tighter regulations than straight up socialism.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I think the economic/social systems in place in America leave more people behind of vulnerable than the economic system of the U.K. The U.K. could do with a more compassionate government for sure, but our social security nets are stronger.

Things like NHS, disability benefits, and Jobseeker's Allowance are also under attack. If they aren't getting picked apart, both in terms of being purposely underfunded or sold off piece-meal, they're receiving a consistent, one-sided battering in the press.

I don't think it's a coincidence that most of these institutions (in Britain, at least) stem from Socialist ideas.