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Arm Chair Analysis: How GAF and others overreact on Nintendo every single time.

I've tried to clarify the truth in my responses to posts on this forum, but I think it is time I post a thread about people's reactions to Nintendo. Full disclosure: I am a Nintendo shareholder, a Wii U owner, and a Playstation 4 / high end PC rig owning individual.

I have a lot to say on arm chair analysis, being a financial guy for over a decade and knowing that being an instantaneous reactionary-posting and thinking society in a digital age is how people get hurt, how you make terrible short term stock / option investment decisions [unless you are an absolute expert day trader], and even how we get Donald Trump as President.

Simply put: arm chair analysis backed with no expertise needs to stop. People do not know what they are talking about, and it shows. You cannot look at one fact or report on the internet and know enough to see exactly what the future holds. It can take years of study to truly understand even a simple asset / issue on which you aren't educated, never mind a complicated one such as an entire company, industry, or even political issue. Sometimes, it does not take years. But if we could all see the future without expertise, we would all be billionaires.

Let's talk about how this era of knee jerk reactions and their real effects applies to Nintendo and people's fast reading of situations that don't deserve a fast read.

It is true, as an investor when you are looking for a return on your investment, you are mostly concerned with those investments that will give you the largest return in the shortest period. This type of investor is more a day trader, and less a fundamental trader in my opinion. The day trader wants a quick return based on whatever method they find reasonable -- be it the ups and downs related to rumors and news, technical movements that have more to do with computer trading than with humans, or any number of other short term movements.

Many arm-chair analysts / day traders / investors get easily scared when they don't fully understand a company and hear some news that is less than pleasing. In my experience, people rarely take the time to truly understand situations in which they are investing. Again - how did we get the Donald as the free world leader? The large potential returns of a decision / reaction are the most exciting part for them, and usually make the decision for them. Even in the halls of complicated wall street finance, this is how decisions are sometimes made. In many ways, the way our society is going is to make big, sweeping decisions on things related to the instantaneous release of serotonin in our brains -- everything has become a gambling decision it seems. I think the internet is an amazing thing, but I also think it has been destructive to rational thought.

Let's take a look at some Nintendo news that has caused a variety of knee jerk reactions around this forum and in the digital world: Super Mario Run was downloaded 40 million times, but converted payers in only 4% of those downloads.

Reaction: NINTENDO IS DEAD. RUN FROM THE STOCK. INVESTORS ARE RIGHT, THEY MADE SUCH A MISTAKE. DISASTER.

But wait a minute, the fundamentals trader asks him or herself, are these reactions reality?

Mobile Mario has apparently been downloaded more times than any app in Apple store history, and has an equal or higher rate of conversion than other mobile games. Did Nintendo leave some money on the table with the way they handled the paywall? Yes, probably. Does this signify a guaranteed long term failure in the space? Absolutely not. The greatest strength that mobile software development offers is the ability to try new things, and change. All Nintendo has to do is flip a switch on their current Mario software, or develop a new Mario game with a new pricing proposition, and presto-chango - most of the history of their pay wall being a barrier to their profit in the mobile space is erased (even though currently they are at par or ahead of par with conversions, so one might argue they are doing fine). Consumers short term negative memories are replaced with a new game or pay structure that is completely acceptable and they forget it ever happened. Again, this is assuming that Mario was handled completely wrong, and the jury is still out a bit even on that.

Let's then look quickly at their position in the industry:

They just had a large failure in their home console ecosystem. As such, their financials are muted and not great recently but interest in the Switch is significant. It has been significantly more positively received as a system and as a value proposition (pending price) than the Wii U ever was. As such, it is reasonable to conclude that the Switch will do better than Wii U. They are investing in their brand and opening up other "faucets" of revenue via theme parks, brand sales, mobile Pokemon, Mobile Mario, Mobile Animal Crossing, etc., and each one represents a new potential revenue stream. Traditional pokemon software titles are doing better than they ever have and it appears Nintendo's mobile efforts contributed to that.

So let's generate a simple system of assessment of Nintendo's current situation, hopefully from a *rational* industry / shareholder perspective, relative to recent events:

Item of Consideration / Effect on Company Financial Position [+] / [-]

Nintendo on Smartphones [+]
Notes: I do not think anyone in their right mind would argue this is not accretive to Nintendo's financial / industry position, even if they aren't doing it perfectly. The investment has to be less than the return. Animal Crossing, Fire Emblem, hell even Mario Kart might be on the horizon. These games are going to be good.

Pokemon Go Success [+]
Notes: Evergreen with changes to the software and seasonality to playing and going outside.

Mario Mobile Success [+]
Notes: Nintendo can always make a new game, or change its pay structure. Also, it can add content which it is already doing, contrary to internet beliefs.

Wii U Failure [ - / Neutral]
Notes: As an investor, most of the effects of the Wii U failure have likely already been felt in Nintendo's financials, assuming Switch takes its place properly.

Switch Positioning Relative To Wii U [+]
Notes: Nintendo may not achieve greatness in their market share in the console space. But will it be better than Wii U? It seems it would be difficult for it not to be. As such, this is accretive to Nintendo's financial position relative to the current moment. If Switch does better than Wii U did in its "best" years, that will be accretive. And that's all I care about wrt to share price or market position.

Nintendo Theme Parks [+]
Notes: I think the brand knowledge among children can only improve at this point, since many children turned away from Nintendo during the Ipad age. As such, the investment will likely result in a modest return.

Exit from Handheld space? [?]
Notes: This is a tough call. Will handheld players be converted to mobile or to Switch comfortably? Their raw sales of handhelds have been challenged by other devices significantly. Time will tell.

These are only a few things one could consider about Nintendo's position, but generally they are in a position to do better than they have recently. Overall, across history, Nintendo has been known to be one of the most stable companies financially in history. This is not simply about their sales of consoles and game software, but also about how they comport themselves with investments. Even in years when they are having gang buster success, they are careful with their money. They are one of the last traditional conservative companies left on the planet. Their continued existence is never guaranteed, but after having watched them for decades I think they are very aware of that problem and continue to address it over time.

Even this post is not complicated enough to capture everything going on in the halls of Nintendo or in this industry, and yet is probably too complicated for most people to give more than a passing glance. And yet, instead of trying to understand all these things, people will superficially decide what the future will bring, and not be penalized for their errors in decisions. I feel strongly that the internet as a community and society as a running organism machine need to walk away from these principles if we are to move forward in a positive manner. And that includes the gaming community. Instantaneous conclusions have led to a snowball effect that have led to a lot of wrong and bad things IMO (see gamer gate, and other controversies). I also happen to believe this way of thought leads people to misinterpret what is going on with Nintendo, and since I happen to be passionate about them, I decided to post a thread.

Thanks for giving me some of your time and a piece of your brains for the day.
 

Nicky Ali

Member
"le epic Nintendo is doomed meme xD" is almost always guaranteed to get hits on your site/youtube video/whatever.

Nintendo have been around for a long time and will continue to be around well into the future.
 

mdubs

Banned
To add:

Why is their hardware so underpowered?

Lateral Thinking with Withered Technology


This has been Nintendo's design philosophy for years

Wikipedia said:
Yokoi articulated his philosophy of "Lateral Thinking of Withered Technology" (枯れた技術の水平思考?, "Kareta Gijutsu no Suihei Shikō") (also translated as "Lateral Thinking with Seasoned Technology") in the book, Yokoi Gunpei Game House (横井軍平ゲーム館 Yokoi Gunpei Gēmu-kan?), which consists of a collection of interviews. "Withered technology" in this context refers to a mature technology which is cheap and well understood. "Lateral thinking" refers to finding radical new ways of using such technology. Yokoi held that toys and games do not necessarily require cutting edge technology; novel and fun gameplay are more important. In the interview he suggested that expensive cutting edge technology can get in the way of developing a new product.

Satoru Iwata, CEO of Nintendo from 2002 until 2015, claimed that this philosophy is still part of Nintendo as it has been passed on to the disciples of Yokoi, such as Miyamoto, and it continues to show itself in Nintendo's then current use of technology with the Nintendo DS handheld system and the highly successful home gaming console, the Wii. The Wii's internal technology is similar to the previous game system's, the GameCube's, and is not as advanced in terms of computational capability and multimedia versatility compared to the competing Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 consoles. Instead, the system offered something completely different by introducing motion-based controls to the console market in an attempt to change the ways video games are played, and consequently, to widen the audience for video games in general - which it successfully did. This strategy demonstrated Nintendo's belief that graphical advancement isn't the only way to make progress in gaming technology; indeed, after the Wii's overwhelming initial success, Sony and Microsoft released their own motion control peripherals. Nintendo's emphasis on peripherals for the Wii has also been pointed to as an example of Yokoi's "lateral thinking" at work. The DS uses ARM processors at relatively low clock speeds and has far less computational power compared to Sony's competing PSP, yet has many modern features such as 802.11b and touchscreen functionality.
 
To add:

Why is their hardware so underpowered?

Lateral Thinking with Withered Technology


This has been Nintendo's design philosophy for years

The problem here is that Nintendo has not followed this strategy for quite some time. Or the most important aspect of "lateral thinking", which is, so you can price your product significantly less than your competition.

This is what made the gameboy, Wii and DS such massive successes. The WiiU was way too expensive, the 3DS is and was overpriced.

Not sure if Switch actually follows this at all. If it costs like $300 and has poor battery life due to the hardware being too demanding I don't think you can say that is what they are doing here.
 

Outrun

Member
Everyone has a right to an opinion.

This does not mean that we are all qualified to hold a job in a particular field.
 
Many arm-chair analysts / day traders / investors get easily scared when they don't fully understand a company and hear some news that is less than pleasing. In my experience, people rarely take the time to truly understand situations in which they are investing. Again - how did we get the Donald as the free world leader? The large potential returns of a decision / reaction are the most exciting part for them, and usually make the decision for them. Even in the halls of complicated wall street finance, this is how decisions are sometimes made. In many ways, the way our society is going is to make big, sweeping decisions on things related to the instantaneous release of serotonin in our brains -- everything has become a gambling decision it seems. I think the internet is an amazing thing, but I also think it has been destructive to rational thought.

Slightly off-topic, but serotonin is the anti-depressive "everything is fiiine!" relexation hormone, what you are looking for is dopamine as the happiness hormone that pushes your motivation and drive, OR endorphines maybe. Endorphines have an opium like effect, they suppress pain, and can boost dopaminous reactions to erogenous levels.
 

rhandino

Banned
Everyone has a right to an opinion.

This does not mean that we are all qualified to hold a job in a particular field.

I do think there is a difference between "I think this is not the best course of action because..." and "This is the worst possible outcome! DOOM!"
 
That's a good point OP, and I tend to agree with a lot of that. As a shareholder myself I'm somewhat baffled about the response to Mario Run. I was actually expecting it to chart pretty poorly at first (downloads and grossing) but it greatly surpassed my expectations. This tells me the big problem could be unrealistic expectations.

I'd add though, regarding the pricing structure of Mario Run, that Nintendo's mobile strategy is much more important regarding brand awareness and marketing than it is mobile revenue. They do not want to devalue Mario on mobile phones if the goal is to convert those mobile phone users into an ecosystem in which Mario games cost $40-60.
 
Everyone has a right to an opinion.

This does not mean that we are all qualified to hold a job in a particular field.

Saying "this decision is shit because it is Nintendo" is nit an opinion.
Thats a huge problem in the internet. Everybody thinks it is okay to cover behind the "my opinion" wall and then just talk shit all day and i dont mean that just in regard to vidogames. Just take obe look under a more or less controversial article on any site and you will see how dumbasses destroy even the smallest conversation with their yelling. Wah, god i hate the internet so much.

*makes love to his PC..."but why can't i let go off you, if you always hurt me so much"*
 

UberTag

Member
While Nintendo overreaction is par for the course, the two most noteworthy instances where it strikes me as being fully warranted was to the Wii U's unmistakably misplaced marketing message and launch ramp post-announcement and their consistently poor (and seemingly intentional) inability to accurately forecast demand for new products while stifling supply for them (the 'ole Nintendo "running itself like a toy company" mantra).

But yeah, more often than not, Nintendo should be afforded the benefit of the doubt in just about every other instance and they're not.
 

Calm Mind

Member
C0Nv902UQAA9ZZL.jpg
 

Buggy Loop

Member
Yeah, but that is the nature of the Net, isn't it?

And it sucks

From early internet in 90's, to nowadays, i will sound like a grandpa, but, it took a turn for the worst for discussions. Neogaf is still the best place for gaming discussions (/shudders @ youtube comments), but damn it has been going down. Drive-by posts, simply vomiting uneducated shit in a thread and never coming back, is ruining Neogaf, for every platforms.
 

petran79

Banned
People want to see Nintendo fail... why you ask? They want another Sega. They want to play Nintendo games without paying for their systems. That simple! That's why everyone overreacts to everything. For most people the smallest nugget of negativity or "fail" means they are that much closer to their goal.

Sega followed a multiplatform route since the 80s. It was always part of their philosophy and not out of mecessity
 
The problem here is that Nintendo has not followed this strategy for quite some time. Or the most important aspect of "lateral thinking", which is, so you can price your product significantly less than your competition.

This is what made the gameboy, Wii and DS such massive successes. The WiiU was way too expensive, the 3DS is and was overpriced.

Not sure if Switch actually follows this at all. If it costs like $300 and has poor battery life due to the hardware being too demanding I don't think you can say that is what they are doing here.

I disagree with your interpretation, the lateral thinking in this context specifically refers to the ability to use older technology in new ways. It's a design philosophy more than a sales strategy, and Nintendo is still adhering to it.
 

bachikarn

Member
I feel like these days there are way more people who complain about people saying 'Nintendo is doomed' than people who actually say 'Nintendo is doomed.' Don't think it is anywhere near as bad as the N64 and GCN era on GAF.

Also, weren't the 'Nintendo is doomed' crowd essentially right? Most of the doomed talk was about their consoles, and with the Switch, it can be argued that Nintendo has essentially left the home console space.
 

Meffer

Member
To add:

Why is their hardware so underpowered?

Lateral Thinking with Withered Technology


This has been Nintendo's design philosophy for years

Yup, been known for years and I expect Nintendo to do this forever. It hasn't screwed them over.
 
And it sucks

From early internet in 90's, to nowadays, i will sound like a grandpa, but, it took a turn for the worst for discussions. Neogaf is still the best place for gaming discussions, but damn it has been going down. Drive-by posts, simply vomiting uneducated shit in a thread and never coming back, is ruining Neogaf, for every platforms.

I think because more people are into video games that it seems like it's gotten worse, but really it's a matter of more people means more good things and more shit, and humans notice the latter far more than the former.

GameFAQs and GameWinners were FAR worse than NeoGAF has ever been. GameFAQs is still the same shithole it has been for years.
 
I disagree with your interpretation, the lateral thinking in this context specifically refers to the ability to use older technology in new ways. It's a design philosophy more than a sales strategy, and Nintendo is still adhering to it.

I really don't see how this applies to the 3ds as when it launched no part of it was particularly old technology.
 

HylianTom

Banned
People want to see Nintendo fail... why you ask? They want another Sega. They want to play Nintendo games without paying for their systems. That simple! That's why everyone overreacts to everything. For most people the smallest nugget of negativity or "fail" means they are that much closer to their goal.
It's elaborately-disguised port-begging.
 

4Tran

Member
The problem here is that Nintendo has not followed this strategy for quite some time. Or the most important aspect of "lateral thinking", which is, so you can price your product significantly less than your competition.

This is what made the gameboy, Wii and DS such massive successes. The WiiU was way too expensive, the 3DS is and was overpriced.

Not sure if Switch actually follows this at all. If it costs like $300 and has poor battery life due to the hardware being too demanding I don't think you can say that is what they are doing here.
This, and that the entire strategy isn't some sort of universal panacea. It comes with its own set of risks that requires an extremely accurate reading of the market in order to navigate properly. Nintendo half-assed it with the Wii U and they got burned for it. The 3DS has been interpreted as a big success despite also being half-assed, but it still lost Nintendo 90 million DS customers.

It remains to be seen if going with Withered Technology (if that's what they're doing at all) is going to help the Switch.

Yup, been known for years and I expect Nintendo to do this forever. It hasn't screwed them over.
Pretty sure the Wii U says otherwise.
 
99% of us aren't "experts" in the field. We're just discussing things on a message board to kill time until Twin Peaks season 3 gets here.

Pretty much...but you lost me at Twin Peaks, isn't that like a restaurant or something?

Is the reaction/analysis to Nintendo news significantly worse than any other gaming news here though? The default internet response seems to be cynicism.
 

georly

Member
People want to see Nintendo fail... why you ask? They want another Sega. They want to play Nintendo games without paying for their systems. That simple! That's why everyone overreacts to everything. For most people the smallest nugget of negativity or "fail" means they are that much closer to their goal.

Yup. They want all their favorite IP in one place (and I guarantee that IP does not include nintendo's more niche titles which are sure to dry up), no matter who gets hurt in the process. Simple as that. Either for financial or convenience reasons, or maybe even ego reasons ("I picked the best possible system because i'm so smart"). They ignore the downsides of more players leaving the market. Sure you'll get everything on one system, but at what cost? If there's a ""best"" system, what efforts do that manufacturer have to do to make it a better experience, to make it more affordable? You *have* to buy it because there's no competition, so they CAN treat you like trash, and they will.
 
I feel like these days there are way more people who complain about people saying 'Nintendo is doomed' than people who actually say 'Nintendo is doomed.' Don't think it is anywhere near as bad as the N64 and GCN era on GAF.

Also, weren't the 'Nintendo is doomed' crowd essentially right? Most of the doomed talk was about their consoles, and with the Switch, it can be argued that Nintendo has essentially left the home console space.
.
 
Pretty much...but you lost me at Twin Peaks, isn't that like a restaurant or something?

Is the reaction/analysis to Nintendo news significantly worse than any other gaming news here though?The default internet response seems to be cynicism.

The internet's response to Nintendo is the same as it is to any console - either fervent love or seething hatred. On NeoGAF, any time a brand new system drops, or is about to, we get a rush of positive topics and then some not so happy topics as well. That's really just the nature of the game.

This is 100% correct but isn't limited to talk about Nintendo.

Yeah, I mean, some places are a little worse or better for certain consoles than others, but Nintendo isn't the only one getting hit with the arm chair stick.
 

sfried

Member
People want to see Nintendo fail... why you ask? They want another Sega. They want to play Nintendo games without paying for their systems. That simple! That's why everyone overreacts to everything. For most people the smallest nugget of negativity or "fail" means they are that much closer to their goal.
People want so bad for Nintendo hardware to fail so they don't have to buy their crappy hardware to play Nintendo games.

There's another term for that: port-begging.
I wonder if it should be a bannable offense...
This is 100% correct but isn't limited to talk about Nintendo.

It seems to affect Nintendo threads the most.
 
There's another term for that: port-begging.
I wonder if it should be a bannable offense...


It seems to affect Nintendo threads the most.

Because they are in the news right now, compared to semi-generational leaps like the PS4 Pro and such where there isn't much to discuss. If Sony started having a bigger shift to mobile, you'd see the same topics in the same ways.
 
There's another term for that: port-begging.
People buy Nintendo's hardware, despite how poorly designed it usually is, because of their great games. I hated the Wii U, but I loved the games on it.

If I had a choice, I'd avoid Nintendo hardware like the plague. They always do something wrong when designing their hardware.

I'm hoping they invest more into mobile gaming and go from there.
 

Dynheart

Banned
I would say that every platform get's their fair share of hate. Perhaps there is one addition to the Nintendo hate that I see all the time that's not lumped with the rest: In hopes to see them fail outright so their IPs can go to a platform of choice. This isn't just in forums, but promoted in the media as well. I believe that's why everyone was so stoked to see Nintendo's IP's in the mobile space. It was perceived as the first step into this ideal that has been pushed for many years now: Nintendo should go 3rd party.

Other than that distinction between the big 3, I see they all get their fair share of love and hate.
 
People want to see Nintendo fail... why you ask? They want another Sega. They want to play Nintendo games without paying for their systems. That simple! That's why everyone overreacts to everything. For most people the smallest nugget of negativity or "fail" means they are that much closer to their goal.

while i do agree, that many people want that. i do. i don't want them to fail in general, but i want to play their games without being forced to buy into bad hardware / a bad platform (ofc just my personal opinion, but others do agree on that). and if commercial failure is the only way to get that, it's sad but a necessity.
the other option would be nintendo finally build great and appealing hardware / platform again. i'm not sure if they will do that. switch is nice as it looks, but not as a main or only gaming platform. is it enough to be a complementary nintendo platform? for some people for sure. for others not. for me probably neither.

that is why i like the microsoft approach. we don't have a competitive appealing mobile platform? fine get our software and services on IOS and Android, while we try to build an own differential platform simultaniously. that was a hard learned lessen for microsoft and i do think nintendo is doing the same now. they are betting on more than one horse now.




but i do disagree on that fact that's the reason people overreact. people overreact, because they're people. people do that all the time with everything. that is not nintendo exclusive in any way
 
People buy Nintendo's hardware, despite how poorly designed it usually is, because of their great games. I hated the Wii U, but I loved the games on it.

If I had a choice, I'd avoid Nintendo hardware like the plague. They always do something wrong when designing their hardware.

I'm hoping they invest more into mobile gaming and go from there.

Why would anyone want that? Besides having less competition, Nintendo's the only company doing anything interesting with video game hardware.
 
One of the items you missed that is fairly damning is nintendos terrible transition into the digital age that is often overlooked, the whole industry is heading that way, and nintendo? they're barely up on where they were 3 years ago.

See a comparison to Sony, courtesy of ZhugeEX

CvrqpttXYAAkbSc.jpg


This is a big item they need to sort to move forward, since Digital will only grow and grow and thats a big part of the switch that is unanswered.
 

Goliath

Member
I think all systems get this kind of treatment. During the PS3 years the first couple years were full of rumors that Sony was going to recall and pull out of gaming because the PS3 underperformed during launch. It was bashed for the price through most of the generation.

I think Nintendo get's a bad rap because it went from top dog to "secondary console". Not to mention the fact that it has had some miss steps with console choices. It's last big success on the console front was the Wii which built its fanbase on a new demographic of gamers that abandoned it for iphone/tablet games a little later. Now we have to see if a system that get's ignored by 3rd parties and likes to do its own thing can make it again so soon after abandoning the failure that is the Wii U.

People don't look at this as an investor like you do, they look at it as a gamer that has a company vying for their money and wondering if its worth the investment or not.
 
When people say Nintendo is doomed I don't think they mean their going bankrupt. For most it's just that they are losing relevance in the console space and don't want to compete with Sony and MS. We can all agree to disagree.. but they're just in their lane doing what they do, and many would like a capable Nintendo console with decent specs that can play major 3rd party games. Imagine playing red dead 2 on your Nintendo console along with great first parties.. but to keep it 100 unless you're a diehard Nintendo fan only interested in their offerings then the console is perfect for you.. otherwise is a waste of money, hence the Nintendo is doomed meme.

I want them to do good and compete, not shy away it is what it is..but I ain't the demographic they're aiming for anyway.
 
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