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Asia Nikkei: Populism fails to catch fire in Japan

temp

posting on contract only
Pretty shallow article with all the emphasis on lack of foreigners. So if there was a large influx of foreigners that would suddenly lead to "populism"? Even with everything else being equal? There would clearly have to be other, basically economic reasons for a movement of general dissatisfaction among common people.

This article seems to be spreading a centrist/reactionary narrative that the motivating force of everyday people and the down-and-out is hate or fear of "others" instead of concern for their own well-being—something which is co-opted by rightwing forces and redirected from legitimate targets (the rich) to scapegoats like "foreigners".
 

kirblar

Member
Pretty shallow article with all the emphasis on lack of foreigners. So if there was a large influx of foreigners that would suddenly lead to "populism"? Even with everything else being equal? There would clearly have to be other, basically economic reasons for a movement of general dissatisfaction among common people.

This article seems to be spreading a centrist/reactionary narrative that the motivating force of everyday people and the down-and-out is hate or fear of "others" instead of concern for their own well-being—something which is co-opted by rightwing forces and redirected from legitimate targets (the rich) to scapegoats like "foreigners".
Yes. You are expecting people to be rational. They are not. The right wing isn't "co-opting" anything. That hatred and xenophobia is already there ripe for the picking.
 

Cocaloch

Member
No, it just happens to list a lot of populist parties from US history that were based out of the South and or Midwest/Plains! :) (Roosevelt's being the exception.)

For one thing a lot of the major movements it mentions also had strong urban components? The main exception until recently being Long's party, which was a legitimately rural movement, but even Long was quite popular in New Orleans and Baton Rouge.

For another it also starts up in the 1890s, about when I yielded any claims of expertise. The article is only descriptive and isn't really making the points you want it to make because it's not really generalizing. It's simply not saying much on the rural urban divide besides the People's Party and Nonpartisan League being rural.

I'll certainly yield that the more effective recent movements trend towards the rural pretty clearly though.


Yeah, I mentioned that where you're quoting me.

It just says the People's Party was.
 

Laieon

Member
I was in Japan about a month ago (Fukuoka). There was this guy I met who had been living there for 10 years or so (originally from Australia), did something with communications. Kept complaining about how he didn't like that Indians were now in every 7/11 and he was angry because "they're taking Japanese jobs!" and that "when people come to Japan, they want to interact with the Japanese!". I don't think he understood the hypocrisy in that statement.
 

7Th

Member
Bernie used plenty of populist rethoric when he pointed fingers at Wall Street. Mexico's leftist presidential candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador is pretty evidently populist. Populism has nothing to do with right or left.
 

Hasemo

(;・∀・)ハッ?
No idea where you were located, but that's definitely not my experience in 10+ years living here and I have traveled to both work and school via train every day the entire time.

JR does tend to be delayed more than other lines, though that is just a result of them having a vast network where one train delay affects dozens of others connected systems.

I might get a 10-20 minute delay every couple of months. Maybe. I honestly can't remember the last time I was delayed longer than 2 minutes because of rush hour crowds or whatever
There are more days in a month when Saikyo Line is late than those when it's on time. It's terrible, even compared to JR. Might be the worst though, although likes like Tobu also have their fair share of longish delays every few days.
 

Dingens

Member
But....they do for the most part?
Especially compared to basically any other country in the world with public transportation.

I always thought this was some sort of myth which originated in the US by people who lack proper reference.
Lived in Japan for quite a while in different places and... didn't feel particularly more punctual than anywhere I've been to in Europe.
Experienced some pretty major delays quite often actually... at least on 2 occasions the closed down the whole station for hours and don't even get me started about taifun season ;)
 
There are more days in a month when Saikyo Line is late than those when it's on time. It's terrible, even compared to JR. Might be the worst though, although likes like Tobu also have their fair share of longish delays every few days.

I always thought this was some sort of myth which originated in the US by people who lack proper reference.
Lived in Japan for quite a while in different places and... didn't feel particularly more punctual than anywhere I've been to in Europe.
Experienced some pretty major delays quite often actually... at least on 2 occasions the closed down the whole station for hours and don't even get me started about taifun season ;)

I'm just gonna chalk these up to the 'Osaka stays winning' board though I am running out of space!

xD
 

Cocaloch

Member
Bernie used plenty of populist rethoric when he pointed fingers at Wall Street. Mexico's leftist presidential candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador is pretty evidently populist. Populism has nothing to do with right or left.

Yeah. Populism can happen from either side, sometimes it's even essentially bipartisan in a way. Populism is a sentiment that empowers particular political movements more than a political movement in itself.
 

bigjig

Member
For the most part, isn't really good enough when you need to get to school or work.
I used to take the train every day to school, and I don't believe there was ever a week where the train ran on time every day.
The train in the city I've had no problems with, it's JR that I experience most of it.

Whereabouts in Japan are you? This doesn't really line up with my experiences at all. I feel like minor 3-5 minute delays happen fairly frequently, but major 30 minute type delays are really rare. I seemed to have a bit more trouble riding the Keihin Tohoku line, but even then the major delays usually were caused by something obvious (like a typhoon or earthquake)
 

milanbaros

Member?
Jeez, I shudder thinking about whats going to happen to this country in 20-30 years when the effects of the falling birth will really start to be felt...

They are being felt already, although you're right it will only get worse. Less than a million births last year, in a country of 127m...
 

Sakura

Member
Whereabouts in Japan are you? This doesn't really line up with my experiences at all. I feel like minor 3-5 minute delays happen fairly frequently, but major 30 minute type delays are really rare. I seemed to have a bit more trouble riding the Keihin Tohoku line, but even then the major delays usually were caused by something obvious (like a typhoon or earthquake)

Fukuoka.
Minor delays of a few minutes were pretty often, but not a huge deal (though still very far from 'Japan trains are always on time'). The worst though was all the times a train would be 10, 20, etc minutes late. Attendance at my language school was pretty strict, and I remember frequently having to get the cards from the train station saying it was the trains fault I was late and not me, and they don't give those out when it's only a few minutes late.
 

Z..

Member
Outside of Japan, I only have limited experience in cities like Barcelona, New York, Boston, Germany (mostly Cologne), and San Francisco during business trips and such.
Barcelona was horrible and we never saw a single train arrive or depart at the recorded time with them being 30 minutes behind at times.
New York was about 50/50 crapshoot.
I can't really remember any issues in Boston, but that was a long time ago and during the summer!
BART in San Francisco has never been on time for me after about a dozen trips, although it was rarely more than 10 minutes over.

Never used public transportation in Spain since I always visited with a car so I really can't comment on Barcelona but in London the tube was always right on time with no issues over a period of 3 years. Except for a couple of times because of suicides which is unavoidable. Same for Germany and France. As far as NY goes I really can't remember since I mostly walked everywhere while I was there.

Buses are a completely unreliable gamble everywhere, though.
 
Fukuoka.
Minor delays of a few minutes were pretty often, but not a huge deal (though still very far 'from Japan trains are always on time'). The worst though was all the times a train would be 10, 20, etc minutes late. Attendance at my language school was pretty strict, and I remember frequently having to get the cards from the train station saying it was the trains fault I was late and not me, and they don't give those out when it's only a few minutes late.

Ah, yeah, JR Kyushu was actually pretty bad now that I think about it. I lived outside Kurume for about a year when I first moved here to work.

I always figured it was because the city population had basically outgrown its infrastructure and the fact that areas outside the cities were even more barren than other metropolitan areas(The ghost-town known as Omuta might be one of the creepiest places I have ever been.) But that was exactly 10 years ago now.
 

bigjig

Member
Fukuoka.
Minor delays of a few minutes were pretty often, but not a huge deal (though still very far from 'Japan trains are always on time'). The worst though was all the times a train would be 10, 20, etc minutes late. Attendance at my language school was pretty strict, and I remember frequently having to get the cards from the train station saying it was the trains fault I was late and not me, and they don't give those out when it's only a few minutes late.

Ah okay, I've only had experience with Nagoya, Tokyo and Osaka trains myself. That must suck.
 

Sakura

Member
Ah okay, I've only had experience with Nagoya, Tokyo and Osaka trains myself. That must suck.

I don't really know if I liked the trains in Tokyo any better. Not because they were late, but just constantly jam packed full of people.
 

Bossun

Member
For the most part, isn't really good enough when you need to get to school or work.
I used to take the train every day to school, and I don't believe there was ever a week where the train ran on time every day.
The train in the city I've had no problems with, it's JR that I experience most of it.

I can assure you the train in Japan are on time compared to anywhere in the world, it doesn't even begin to compare to how late trains can run elsewhere. Japanese are very very lucky in that regard.
 

Zyzyxxz

Member
I always thought this was some sort of myth which originated in the US by people who lack proper reference.
Lived in Japan for quite a while in different places and... didn't feel particularly more punctual than anywhere I've been to in Europe.
Experienced some pretty major delays quite often actually... at least on 2 occasions the closed down the whole station for hours and don't even get me started about taifun season ;)

Coming from America I thought Tokyo's train system was impeccable. Although I have only been to Tokyo and Yokohama but for the most part I was very impressed.

I'd say the only system that ran on a timelier manner in my experience was Hong Kong but Hong Kong is small and the trains don't have to criss cross much. Taiwan is up there too, I love how its setup to be a grid.

I hope you guys never have to use the New York subway system in reference.
 

zeroshiki

Member
Other than a few minutes during rush hour or the odd typhoon/snow/earthquake, I have rarely if ever experienced train delays in Japan. The trains are so accurate you can set your watch to it.
 

Kayhan

Member
Populism takes great advantage of worries about immigration.

There is extremely little immigration or refugees coming in to Japan.
 
I don't really know if I liked the trains in Tokyo any better. Not because they were late, but just constantly jam packed full of people.

another +1 to "Osaka stays Winning" board.

Although, at least one of my train rides does get crowded if I have to come into work a bit earlier than usual for whatever reason.
During my normal commute it's crowded but not "Train staff stuffing people in like sardines" crowded.
 

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
The Japanese internet is full of racist alt-right populists tho?

Abe and his gang are more or less what a Japanese populist would look like.

Japanese populism is more about "do we admit to war atrocities". "Should we have an army and nuclear bombs", "Can I revise the constitution to make this a fucked up police state."

Immigrants are "Chinese tourists" and "Koreans", "North Korean Schools", "American military", "People with bad manners."
 

cryptic

Member
Not sure if it's the one being talked about but it wasn't the attempted coup involving actor Yukio Mishima was it? Blank stares and he ended up committing seppuku.

Wow. Actor? He was one of the greatest writers I've ever read.
"I don't think they heard a word that I said."
 

Laieon

Member
Immigrants are "Chinese tourists" and "Koreans", "North Korean Schools", "American military", "People with bad manners."

Replace Koreans with the Japanese/Chinese and get rid of NK Schools and this 100% sounds like the exact same train of though in Korea.
 
The Japanese internet is full of racist alt-right populists tho?

"

I mean yeah, what region's internet isn't.

One of my favorite things to do/annoying realities is watching youtube, falling asleep with the auto play on, waking up hours later and having it play these weird super low budget right wing videos and story text videos uploaded to youtube and other video services. I mean its amazing that the hardcore right wingers are that apt to use technology, but their counter argumentors? never upload stuff.

Eh. Weird stuff.

Also too true about the inward blame and what not. One of the things I've been doing all day today is putting together packets of papers for low-income families in the area who are subject to government benefits for their kids. School supplies and lunch money ect. One of the workers was telling me that sometimes these get ignored or tossed out because people don't want to accept it. Usually families that had a decent income and are on hardtimes now, others rely on it for whatever personal reasons.

Also think some of the talk shows are interesting here. When they have old panelists on, on like the weekends when only old people are watching they have this weird SUPER Japanese perspective on the world and ask why people act a certain way as opposed to a very Japanese way of thinking or doing things. It's interesting to hear when it happens, though one of my friends often complains about it saying it makes no sense to ask why Trump doesn't do something that a Japanese person would do.
 
Wow. Actor? He was one of the greatest writers I've ever read.
"I don't think they heard a word that I said."

He was a really intriguing person. Some evidence points to the whole coup just being a sort of final performance art to surround his suicide (which was meticulously planned if I remember right).
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Bernie used plenty of populist rethoric when he pointed fingers at Wall Street. Mexico's leftist presidential candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador is pretty evidently populist. Populism has nothing to do with right or left.

Populism is such an ambiguous word that it can describe any popular movement that violates the norms of acceptable discourse. Very little united the reactionary crowd that welcomed Trump in Phoenix with the left-wing masses that came to protest him except their shared, but pointedly different, disdain for the existing political class. Yet, opinion pieces from all across our liberal consensus can be found explaining why left-wing anger is just as dangerous as right-wing rage. Or to put it in other words, that rough or vulgar attempts to defeat fascists are just as bad as fascism simply because these efforts are rough and vulgar.

The populism narrative can unite disparate movements regardless of ideology or class character, making it easier for the political class to defend their consensus from any serious criticism. When an imaginary sameness is projected onto factions that hate each other, the same arguments can be used to defeat them. This brings to our current terrifying and hazy state of online liberal dialogue, where pundits will accuse members of a nurse's union of being "alt-left activists" because they aren't enthusiastic about their preferred candidates.

I'm skeptical that populism really exists beyond the rhetoric, because that's all that unites the hundreds of activists from every political locus who've been labelled, generally accusingly, as populists. Because tone and language alone cannot amount to political change, I think this is a pretty stupid thing to get worked up over. But it's foolish to the think people who condemn populism are all cynics struggling to find a moral high ground. Movements that challenge liberal ideology, whether left or right, often do violate the norms of decency that liberals have set up. It's understandable that people within this accepted paradigm will lash out against those who seek to change it. But liberals who obsess over discourse and the norms of acceptability must recognize that activists who oppress people are different from activists who want to save people. It doesn't matter if they both give angry speeches -- their political objectives are directly opposed. Because the far right is always going to play dirty, policing the language of the activist left inhibits anti-fascist efforts. If liberals continue to pretend that populist movements are interchangeable, we can't work together to defeat those movements which are actually harmful.
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
What is this anti-train nonsense people are posting.

The trains for the most part are incredibly on schedule.
 

G.ZZZ

Member
I reject the claim that a homogenous population leads to less populism, which is factual wrong.

This shouldn't even be stated.

Just for historical perspective, most populist movements outside of the US were in extremely homogeneous states.

Again for perspective, all nations except for the Northern and southern american ones were extremely homogenous before WW2 and still sort of are. Populism existed nevertheless. Japan is extremely homogenous, but stil has a far right "populist" government who predicate historical revisionism and neo-imperialism. Just because he's in suit and he follow the interests of financial groups doesn't mean he's a garbo neo-fascist populist.

Also, the notion of "populism" is largely garbage nowadays. Being angry at injustice and inequality and being for ethno-nationalist fascist states are NOT the same thing, despite what the liberal media and propaganda try to tell you. The reason they do should be extremely clear but apparently we have people still believing in 2017 that standing for equality is economic populism, whereas it's just another way of saying "the propaganda system protect its own wealth". It should be self-evident, but apparently it still isn't.
 

Foffy

Banned
Seeing as this is the same culture that wants automation of jobs over immigrating people to do those jobs, Japan seems very safe regarding not falling to populism or neonationalism.

That said, they have their own deep problems with the precariat class. Consider how people weaponize their poverty as a lack of will: this is a huge fucking problem, largely because it's not true at all. It's a broken down system, and we need to emphasize awareness to that. The 20th century economic model, which we still use, has broken down for the majority of the first world in some degree.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Far right and populism aren't the same thing at all as you seem to acknowledge in the last bit. In fact the well entrenched machine that you're describing is, if anything, more likely to provoke a populist response in other political cultures. Populism in the Western style is traditionally a reaction against a perceived corrupt elite to restore the true spirit of the nation. Part of the interesting issue with Japan here is that the people don't seem to have nearly as much of a problem with a political system that would be seen as totally corrupt by western standards.

Valhelm's point is that populism in Japan won't look like populism in the US or Britain, since ethnonationalist isolationists are already the Japanese elite and have been for decades - you can't really be a populist ethnonationalist isolationist when that's the elite already is, since populism is defined as the antithesis to the elite. The 'where is Japan's Trump' question is pretty easily answerable - he was called Junichiro Koizumi and was Prime Minister from 2001 to 2006, and was extremely popular (they were even both orange).

Japanese populism would likely take a different route - for example, through the Japanese Communist Party. Lo and behold, they were the best performing opposition party in the 2015 local elections and, for comparison, did better than UKIP did in the United Kingdom's 2015 local elections.
 

G.ZZZ

Member
Seeing as this is the same culture that wants automation of jobs over immigrating people to do those jobs, Japan seems very safe regarding not falling to populism or neonationalism.

That said, they have their own deep problems with the precariat class. Consider how people weaponize their poverty as a lack of will: this is a huge fucking problem, largely because it's not true at all. It's a broken down system, and we need to emphasize awareness to that. The 20th century economic model, which we still use, has broken down for the majority of the first world in some degree.

Considering how even the left-wing parties in the EU, the most progressive ones in the world on average, are still saying that we should go back to the old ways of society to ensure equality again doesn't give me hope.

Those people were raised and shaped by a society that was already on borrowed time for their economical paradigm. We'll see fascist states before we get to see actually progressive politicans out there. I've partecipated in the political discourse of the left parties over here and it's absolutely depressing. There's nothing but corporativism dressed up as "progressivism" and regressivism.
 

Oriel

Member
Homogenous population, 93.5% of which live in Urban areas. There's your answer.

Yep. Whether some on GAF want to admit it or not large immigrant populations in Western countries will inevitably create a backlash from certain sections. If Japan were following the West's example of a more diverse population there'd probably be greater support for extreme nationalist parties there as well.

And let's not forget that the Japanese people, by and large, are quite right wing, insular and xenophobic already. They have no need to embrace radical fringe parties because successive govts have kept the country shut to outside immigration for so long.
 

Theonik

Member
Japanese populism would likely take a different route - for example, through the Japanese Communist Party. Lo and behold, they were the best performing opposition party in the 2015 local elections and, for comparison, did better than UKIP did in the United Kingdom's 2015 local elections.
生産ミームをつかむ!
 

Valhelm

contribute something
生産ミームをつかむ!

30s_poster_1.jpg
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Pretty shallow article with all the emphasis on lack of foreigners. So if there was a large influx of foreigners that would suddenly lead to "populism"? Even with everything else being equal? There would clearly have to be other, basically economic reasons for a movement of general dissatisfaction among common people.

Foreigners alone don't lead to it. European countries have had a very large amount of terrorist attacks recently, most of them being from Muslims. If these hadn't happened, right-wing populists would be much less of a problem.
 

Oriel

Member
Don't worry, you can still scare people with small immigration numbers.

What if gaijin become bosses...?

Wasn't the Lebanese/Brazilian Carlos Ghosn CEO of Nissan for a time and feted as a minor celeb there for his work in turning the car giant around?
 
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