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ATI on Xbox 2 R&D: "Mostly Done"

A

ArcadeStickMonk

Member
See, fuck... during the last year I've been running a 9800 Pro and have been getting screwed a little bit on all the PC ports of XBOX games. Halo, DEIW, prolly something else, all would have done a little better had I an FX.

Well, now I'm running a 6800 GT and will probably stick with Nvidia for the PCI-Express SLI, and then all the PC ports are going to favor ATI.

Too soon to call, I guess, but I foresee a future of me swearing.
 
S

Scalemail Ted

Member
If this were true wouldn't this indicate that MS is setting its self up for a 2005 release? Because if they planned on a 2006 release; Why have your graphics card finished in 2004, it'd be 18-24 months old before you even launched.
 
A

ArcadeStickMonk

Member
Scalemail Ted said:
If this were true wouldn't this indicate that MS is setting its self up for a 2005 release? Because if they planned on a 2006 release; Why have your graphics card finished in 2004, it'd be 18-24 months old before you even launched.
Click to expand...

That doesn't mean that it cannot do impressive apps.

Halo 2 runs on hardware very close to the GeForce3. I threw my GF3 in my Mom's PC a long time ago.
 
D

doncale

Banned
Xenon VPU is prolly inbetween R520 and R600. or inbetween R500 and R600.

the R520 is an extention of R300. R520 is lesser than the R500 and in some ways, the R400 which is now R600.

kinda confusing.
 
S

Scalemail Ted

Member
ArcadeStickMonk said:
That doesn't mean that it cannot do impressive apps.

Halo 2 runs on hardware very close to the GeForce3. I threw my GF3 in my Mom's PC a long time ago.
Click to expand...



Thats true....But if you have your dev kits already sent out by 2004 ....and vital components of the hardware near complete in 2004....why wait til 2006 to launch. That would be close to 24 months waiting pariod.
 
A

ArcadeStickMonk

Member
Scalemail Ted said:
why wait til 2006 to launch. That would be close to 24 months waiting pariod.
Click to expand...

Correct or incorrect, unintentional or not, think what a 24 month development cycle could do for the XBOX2 launch titles. Remember how many years Bungie had into Halo before it even became a console title.

I'm probably dreaming even tihinkning that they'd do this, but it work out for the best if they did.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Scalemail Ted said:
Thats true....But if you have your dev kits already sent out by 2004 ....and vital components of the hardware near complete in 2004....why wait til 2006 to launch. That would be close to 24 months waiting pariod.
Click to expand...

Cost? Putting 2004 tech in a 2006 machine has got to be cheap(er). Though the tech in even GC was only about a year old by the time it was released..so maybe this points to a 2005 release.

Also, about Halo2 being on GF3 tech etc. that is true, but at the time of Xbox's launch, the GF3 was very very new. So this would be a different scenario (though yeah, bottom line, this thing will produce great graphics either way).
 
S

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
The way xbox is selling now a days itd be really silly for microsoft to release a new console in the next year.
 
D

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
gofreak said:
Cost? Putting 2004 tech in a 2006 machine has got to be cheap(er). Though the tech in even GC was only about a year old by the time it was released..so maybe this points to a 2005 release.

Also, about Halo2 being on GF3 tech etc. that is true, but at the time of Xbox's launch, the GF3 was very very new. So this would be a different scenario (though yeah, bottom line, this thing will produce great graphics either way).
Click to expand...

scratch what i just said before... lol. The Xbox is based on GeForce 3 but with about the power roughly that of a GeForce 4 Ti4200~4400 (but since it's not going over AGP, you got more power to play with) Also don't forget how much b/w this new machine puts out, and how much more processing power it puts out. As it stands... the Xbox 2 processor will probably be more powerful than the entire Xbox system. The GPU has been rumored to be a counter-part off the r600 sort of like the NV2a to the GF4.

Also if anyone has a good memory... the Xbox devkits with the NV20 (GF3) were starting to hit the hands of developers in december 2000. In comparison to the Xbox they are ahead of schedule by comparison which is probably a damn good thing :)
 
C

cja

Member
slide34.jpg

Presentation URL

When the above slide was shown the ATi CFO said:
"We're actually winding down development on some of the Microsoft product"

Question from analyst on Microsoft royalty business during Q&A session:
"I can't tell you very much, other than the nature of the contract was one where there were incentives for us entered if we exceeded certain targets, there were penalties if we didn't meet certain targets and right at this point in time we feel pretty good about the evolution of that contract."
<inaudible follow-up query>
"Most of the R&D is behind us, we have started to move people off of that project."

The CFO of ATi also mentioned that they get circa $25m per annum from Nintendo in royalties. He expects this to grow to $75m each year when the two other pure royalty contracts (MS Xenon GPU and Qualcomm handheld) come into play. The inference being that each is worth $25m per annum. So much for Nintendo going for a cheap option...
 
G

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
The fact that Xbox is the official console of the 2006 world cup says to me that Xbox 2 wont be out by summer 2006 in Europe (though i guess it could change to xbox 2, the PR said xbox).
 
M

mr2mike

Banned
So that either means a cheap Xbox at launch, or a really advanced chip that'd be too expensive to market today....

I'll take a bit of both please :)
 
R

Rhindle

Member
Remember that ATI is not delivering the GPU to Microsoft. Their agreement is to license the "core IP" for the processor. Microsoft and/or its foundry partners will likely be doing the final engineering/optimization/tape-out work.

So it would make sense that ATI is winding down their part and getting ready to hand it off now. This would presumably allow them to start sampling sometime early next year, early enough to get final hardware devkits out six months ahead of launch.
 
T

truesayian

Banned
Ghost said:
The fact that Xbox is the official console of the 2006 world cup says to me that Xbox 2 wont be out by summer 2006 in Europe (though i guess it could change to xbox 2, the PR said xbox).
Click to expand...


Even if true, nobody cares
 
R

Redbeard

Banned
cja said:
The CFO of ATi also mentioned that they get circa $25m per annum from Nintendo in royalties. He expects this to grow to $75m each year when the two other pure royalty contracts (MS Xenon GPU and Qualcomm handheld) come into play. The inference being that each is worth $25m per annum. So much for Nintendo going for a cheap option...
Click to expand...

How do you infer that MS and Qualcomm are equal contributors?
 
R

radioheadrule83

Banned
Ghost said:
The fact that Xbox is the official console of the 2006 world cup says to me that Xbox 2 wont be out by summer 2006 in Europe (though i guess it could change to xbox 2, the PR said xbox).
Click to expand...

I don't know... FIFA 2005 is out next month... it's still 2004. Besides, PSone lived on after the release of Dreamcast and PS2, and I think Xbox is actually on the upswing. Same with Gamecube to a lesser extent.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
radioheadrule83 said:
I don't know... FIFA 2005 is out next month... it's still 2004. Besides, PSone lived on after the release of Dreamcast and PS2, and I think Xbox is actually on the upswing. Same with Gamecube to a lesser extent.
Click to expand...

More with GCN as Revolution/GCN 2 will be backward-compatible.
 
D

doncale

Banned
Panajev, I do not see Xbox 2 technology sitting around for too long, like into 2nd half of 2006, do you? I am curious to see what the cut off points are for Xbox 2 and PS3 development cycles.
 
S

Sysgen

Member
sp0rsk said:
The way xbox is selling now a days itd be really silly for microsoft to release a new console in the next year.
Click to expand...

I'll play the devils advocate on this one. Since the console is selling so well, why not use that momentum for next gen or better yet if B/C is included then why does it matter how well the current gen is selling?
 
C

cybamerc

Will start substantiating his hate
Ghost said:
The fact that Xbox is the official console of the 2006 world cup says to me that Xbox 2 wont be out by summer 2006 in Europe (though i guess it could change to xbox 2, the PR said xbox).
Click to expand...
In 2002 Ballmer said they would launch Xbox 2 around the next WC. But who knows, plans change.
 
B

Blimblim

The Inside Track
sp0rsk said:
The way xbox is selling now a days itd be really silly for microsoft to release a new console in the next year.
Click to expand...
I do not think it's that simple. The way the Xbox is now means that MS is doomed to lose *A LOT* of money on each Xbox they sell. They have to pay too many 3rd party companies for their parts to have a chance one day to lose less money (making a profit is totally unthinkable).
MS certainly wants to use the current Xbox popularity to have a successful launch of Xbox 2, where they will have a chance to actually make a profit one day, since they will own most the IP of the hardware.
 
B

Bauer Action Hour

Member
Rhindle said:
Remember that ATI is not delivering the GPU to Microsoft. Their agreement is to license the "core IP" for the processor. Microsoft and/or its foundry partners will likely be doing the final engineering/optimization/tape-out work.

So it would make sense that ATI is winding down their part and getting ready to hand it off now. This would presumably allow them to start sampling sometime early next year, early enough to get final hardware devkits out six months ahead of launch.
Click to expand...
The most relevant post in this thread. Nice analysis.
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
cybamerc said:
Blimblim:

> since they will own most the IP of the hardware.

No they won't.
Click to expand...


It's more likely that they will, IMHO. That's part of the key to saving themselves money on the console this time. They own the majority of the final design's tech, even if they license/purchase IP from others to implement it. By doing this, they then give themselves more options for negotiating manufacturing, thus enabling lower costs.

I highly doubt that the ATI (or IBM) IP is going to be utilized straight up in a basic way...MS will have, more than likely, added/modified so much of it to suit their specific needs of the overall console design.
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
cybamerc said:
Licensing does not equal owning.
Click to expand...

Well, duh! They using other IP to help enable new IP based on that. ATI wins (licensing income); IBM wins (licensing/manufacturing income); MS/Nintendo (higher profit margins/lower internal R&D resources used) wins. Simple, IMHO.
 
C

cybamerc

Will start substantiating his hate
I'm not disputing that it makes financial sense. It's just wrong to say that M$ owns most of the IP.
 
G

GIR

Banned
WordofGod said:
Source?
Click to expand...
Source = logic, think about it, there's no reason why it wont be BC, besides I've heard many people say that it WONT be BC despite the fact that it's still up in the air as to whether or not it will be BC, Source? Source?
 
S

Shoryuken

Member
GIR said:
Source = logic, think about it, there's no reason why it wont be BC, besides I've heard many people say that it WONT be BC despite the fact that it's still up in the air as to whether or not it will be BC, Source? Source?
Click to expand...

I don't understand your "logic". In most interviews talking about Next Generation, MS constantly downplays the usefullness of BC. Although it would be a nice surprise if it was BC, most hints coming out of the MS camp point to it not being BC.
 
A

ArcadeStickMonk

Member
Backwards compatibilty is next to worthless to me, because I'm not going to get rid of my hardware.

Although it is nice, to just have one kind of Playstation hooked up and be able to play Valkyrie Profile once a year, but it's no deal breaker.
 
G

GIR

Banned
Shoryuken said:
I don't understand your "logic". In most interviews talking about Next Generation, MS constantly downplays the usefullness of BC. Although it would be a nice surprise if it was BC, most hints coming out of the MS camp point to it not being BC.
Click to expand...
Dude its simple, it&#8217;s a 50/50 choice, I'm checking the box on the BC option others have chosen the non BC option, even though:
1. Microsoft would be stupid NOT to include this feature
2. Its technically possible.
3. Not having a feature that one of you major competitors has is generally frowned upon by persnickety consumers.

It doesn&#8217;t matter what MS has said or not said or hinted at, people in this industry say and do different things, remember when Shiggy said that the next Mario game (SMS) would be "mature" everyone was saying that it would feature realistic graphics and not be like a cartoon, I tried telling them that Shiggy was probably joking and SMS would end up looking Luigi's Mansion.
 
S

Shoryuken

Member
GIR said:
Dude its simple, it’s a 50/50 choice, I'm checking the box on the BC option others have chosen the non BC option, even though:
1. Microsoft would be stupid NOT to include this feature
2. Its technically possible.
3. Not having a feature that one of you major competitors has is generally frowned upon by persnickety consumers.

It doesn’t matter what MS has said or not said or hinted at, people in this industry say and do different things, remember when Shiggy said that the next Mario game (SMS) would be "mature" everyone was saying that it would feature realistic graphics and not be like a cartoon, I tried telling them that Shiggy was probably joking and SMS would end up looking Luigi's Mansion.
Click to expand...

Yes, but that still doesn't explain why MS would want themselves to look bad compared to their competitors. Both Sony and Nintendo have already said that they are going to implement backward compatability into their new systems while MS has all but called it useless. If they were going to include it they certainly wouldn't want to downplay it. Also with their change in technology partners it would make things a bit more difficult. Sony will probably include the Emotion engine in the PS3, while it's looking like Nintendo will have relatively the same design for their next system making BC easy. MS on the other hand would have to use some type of emulation to have backwards compatability, and at the moment (based on their words) they seem to think it's not worth it.
 
D

doncale

Banned
GameSpot picks up on this at last

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/09/08/news_6106944.html

ATI "winding down" work on Xbox Next


Speaking to the Smith Barney Citigroup 2004 Technology Conference in New York, Nickerson gave a presentation about ATI's sources of future revenue. Given that the company is making the graphics processors for both Microsoft and Nintendo's next-generation machines, he naturally touched on the subject of royalties from the two companies.

“The other one that's starting to become a factor--when you're looking at it from an investment point of view--are game consoles," he said. "Both Nintendo and Microsoft will be royalty [sources]." Then Nickerson dropped a tantalizing tidbit about the Xbox Next. "We're actually winding down development on some of the Microsoft product," he said casually.
Click to expand...
 
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