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Atomic Planet replies to GCN MMAC cries
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Jonnyboy117
Member
It's pretty clear to me that they should have taken the time and effort to rewrite the games for the new systems, rather than porting the PS1 versions. They probably could have saved a lot of space that way, with the same results (extra features, etc.). Also, I think most of us would prefer the remixed music over 20-min developer video interviews...that was a poor choice. As for the need to use redbook audio, apparently these guys have never heard of .nsf and .spc. You can play those files in Winamp on a P300, and they are note-for-note perfect because they are ripped directly from the game.
No matter how many excuses the developer offers, there really IS no excuse. The game can only be a success if you please the fans, and that means doing whatever it takes to please the fans. It seems to me that they didn't try hard enough, and as a result, the GC version is going to suffer in sales. This game's market is hardcore MM fans who will find out about these inadequacies and choose the PS2 version or neither.
No matter how many excuses the developer offers, there really IS no excuse. The game can only be a success if you please the fans, and that means doing whatever it takes to please the fans. It seems to me that they didn't try hard enough, and as a result, the GC version is going to suffer in sales. This game's market is hardcore MM fans who will find out about these inadequacies and choose the PS2 version or neither.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
So the PS1 versions of the game were huge due to using redbook audio... believable, since it didn't matter. But it's not as if using uncompressed audio is the only choice. Surely there's one person at Capcom and/or Atomic Planet who uses such knowledge on a daily basis.
It's like if someone were to port FF VIII to the GCN. Not a remake, just a port. And claimed that it would be impossible, because the hour-ish of low-resolution low-frame rate video footage would simply be impossible to fit on a 1.5 GB disc.
It's like if someone were to port FF VIII to the GCN. Not a remake, just a port. And claimed that it would be impossible, because the hour-ish of low-resolution low-frame rate video footage would simply be impossible to fit on a 1.5 GB disc.
Kumiko Nikaido
Vindication...sweet.
Link316 said:
How's it edited? What's changed?
And can someone summarize what Keiji Inafune talks about in the G4 Developer Interview?
still redbook audio is a standard format that can be read using your cd player...it could have been easily compressed into any smaller format and they could have made it work...its just laziness on their part. They could have done the same on ps2 and could have added more extra content if they wanted.
and you can make changes to emulated games..after all I'm sure capcom still has the source code for these games...besides I think people would have appreciated the original un-altered versions anyways.
and you can make changes to emulated games..after all I'm sure capcom still has the source code for these games...besides I think people would have appreciated the original un-altered versions anyways.
btrboyev said:
Sooo...you are saying that you could use an NES emulator to handle all those extras? I don't think so...
You wouldn't be properly emulating an NES anymore if you added all of the extra features (it isn't as if the NES could playback digital audio or display higher color UI features). Emulation would never have worked...
I agree about the audio format, though...
TekunoRobby
Tag of Excellence
dark10x said:
But you have to admit, that's one awesome exception!
The Faceless Master
Member
basically, their reply says it all... they didn't want to do any more work than they deemed necessary, and obviously, all the music *could* fit if they used an adequate format, of which there are plenty to choose from, but they probably don't get paid by the hour...
TekunoRobby said:
Oh yeah, and that's the point. That was some truly incredible compression work. As noted in another thread, you should go check ou the article at Gamasutra regarding the game. It was no easy feat...
As a result, one should not expect all developers to match (or even approach) that feat.
the extra features your referring to such as the little fixes aren't worth the port..the original versions were good enough..proper emulation could have fixed flickering and slowdown problems. And I do believe the the remixed tunes could have been used even if the games were emulated.
ArcadeStickMonk
Member
dark10x said:
I'm sure it also helps that both RE2 discs use so much of the same data that, fmvs aside, it potentially could have been a one disc game.
On a side note: seriously, did your cell change or what?
bobbyconover
Member
dark10x said:
Uh, what? I own the PCB of Power Fighters and have been playing it for years, and I can say with complete certainty that the tracks from 1-3 are lifted directly from it. In fact, just to double-check I ripped all of the arrange tracks from my psx Rockman 2 disc the other day and compared them against my Power Fighters OST. They were identical.
10 Games for $30. Geez that's great, remixed music or no. Porting the PS1 version with redbook audio is easiest and I'm glad they went with that instead of reprogramming chip music. Why? Because I'd rather have it released on time and at a good price.
I suspect that if the PS2 version didn't exist for comparison, a lot of people here would be praising the package. Instead we've got the blame-everyone-but-Nintendo mentality out in force. Sure, Capcom could have footed the bill for 2-discs, but why should they have to incur not only material costs but that of testing and implementing disc swapping? Even then, we'd have people bitching about the hassle of 2 discs and deriding Atomic Planet's "lazy" programming that bloated 8-bit games to over 1.5GB.
I suspect that if the PS2 version didn't exist for comparison, a lot of people here would be praising the package. Instead we've got the blame-everyone-but-Nintendo mentality out in force. Sure, Capcom could have footed the bill for 2-discs, but why should they have to incur not only material costs but that of testing and implementing disc swapping? Even then, we'd have people bitching about the hassle of 2 discs and deriding Atomic Planet's "lazy" programming that bloated 8-bit games to over 1.5GB.
I can understand the control argument, there's just no excuse for it being switched like that.
As for the music part, since they are using the psx MM games as the "bases" they could have compressed the red book audio to MP3 format(or whatever compress sound format GC uses) and just relink all music calls to it. The music problem could be laziness rather than being incompetant(like control issues). But think about it, they took the time to take out the remix, but didn't put in the time to compress all the music and relink them? Even if they finish the GC version first, it doesn't mean anything, it could mean they had some trouble programming the PS2 version.
As for the music part, since they are using the psx MM games as the "bases" they could have compressed the red book audio to MP3 format(or whatever compress sound format GC uses) and just relink all music calls to it. The music problem could be laziness rather than being incompetant(like control issues). But think about it, they took the time to take out the remix, but didn't put in the time to compress all the music and relink them? Even if they finish the GC version first, it doesn't mean anything, it could mean they had some trouble programming the PS2 version.
bobbyconover
Member
TKM said:
Your arguments only cover the music portion of things, though. I and many others are 10x more disgusted with the button-switch fiasco, which really does ruin the 'feel' of all of the games for those of us who grew up with them, and which can only be the result of laziness or ignorance within Atomic Planet. Seriously, there's no excuse - they haven't even tried offering up one yet.
Of course I'll just buy the PS2 one, but it's the principle of the thing that bothers me. If you're going to put together a compilation of some of the most beloved games of the last 20 years, it might help to take 10 seconds to note the control scheme and to attempt to match it.
"Because I'd rather have it released on time and at a good price. "
It was delayed for months already. It being on time is false. This quote is true: "Delays are temporary, but mediocracy is forever". It is illogical to favor one moment of impatience over the permanent state of a product.
It was delayed for months already. It being on time is false. This quote is true: "Delays are temporary, but mediocracy is forever". It is illogical to favor one moment of impatience over the permanent state of a product.
Agent X
Member
The Faceless Master said:
I think this sums it up nicely.
I don't understand why they ported the PlayStation versions, though. With regard to the first six games, it's the NES versions that people are most familiar with. If they couldn't emulate the NES version properly (due to wanting to include the remixed music), then they should've done a ground-up rewrite and included both chip-based music and the remixed soundtrack.
Capcom probably should've handed this project to the Digital Eclipse team at Backbone Entertainment (yes, the Death, Jr. people). Why? Because Digital Eclipse has successfully handled similar tasks before. They have done ground-up rewrites using the original source code (see SNES/Genesis versions of Williams Arcade's Greatest Hits). They've also done arcade game emulations with graphical overlays--all of their Atari arcade game collections for the PC (Atari Arcade Hits, Atari Anniversary Edition and Atari: 80 Classic Games in One!) have options to play with "enhanced" graphics that feature higher resolution sprites with more detail and color, but overlaid on top of the emulated game.
Hopefully a valuable lesson has been learned here.
bobbyconover said:
That I agree with completely. EVERY game should give the player complete choice over control mapping. If I want something crazy like Start for jump and R trigger to shoot, I should have that option. Can't imagine it taking much memory to save one control setting. Not a choice between Control Scheme A, B, C, and D but completely configurable.
Sho Nuff said:
They were using PSX megaman games as the bases. The majority of the space used in those games are for audio. What else could it be for? A 170k NES Megaman suddenly became 230+ MB on the PSX? Even with new content and graphic update, I don't see it going any higher than 30MB.
Agent X
Member
Sho Nuff said:
The original music was already composed in a chip-based format. There are rips of this music available on many Web sites, which can be played in a NES music player program on a PC. They can be readily obtained by just about anyone with the ability to use a search engine.
The developers could have obtained these files, the same way you or I can. All they would've need do after that is write their own playback routines using the original music data. They wouldn't have to do any sampling or new composition. This isn't exactly rocket science.
fennec fox
ferrets ferrets ferrets ferrets FERRETS!!!
OK, that's it. The final straw.
This thread has officially made me hate the GameCube thanks to its users.
This thread has officially made me hate the GameCube thanks to its users.
fenekku-gitsune said:
Huh? I think all these people are right in being pissed off. I mean fuck it's not like Atomic Planet was creating new games, they were doing ports of very old games. They should be even more enraged that these people have the stones to use space issues as a reason for their utter incompetence. This project really should have been handed over to a different group.
Agent X
Member
Sho Nuff said:
I don't know. I've never played the PlayStation versions of the first six games. They weren't even released in the US. Most people seemed to be expecting (or hoping for) the NES versions of the first six games anyway.
You could use the NES music file for the "original" soundtracks, and MP3 versions of the PS1 audio tracks for the "remixed" soundtracks. Simple enough. Fans of the original NES music would get exactly what they want, and those who prefer the PS1 soundtrack instead could have that as well.
Jonnyboy117 put it nicely:
Jonnyboy117 said:
sidenote: it's amazing how much most people don't care. i was at EB today, this guy was trading in stacks of games, and he wanted to pick up MMAC on GC. I told him about all the issues, and he kinda looked at me funny ans said "Well, I'll just deal with it."
His use of logic and reasoning took me by complete surprise.
His use of logic and reasoning took me by complete surprise.