Crazymoogle
Member
Kleegamefan said:
True, but you can't exactly assume that Nelson has the same breadth of technical delivery background info as us or that it isn't just a hardware capable spec (see: PSP)
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Audio for next-gen optical disk, explaining DD+/DTS HD(powerpoint madness for Joo)
- Thread starter Kleegamefan
- Start date
True, but you can't exactly assume that Nelson has the same breadth of technical delivery background info as us or that it isn't just a hardware capable spec (see: PSP)
I'm just wondering if its PR-speak?
While its true that DD EX and DTS ES aren't 7.1 natively, DPLIIx can convert them. While that's stretching the truth, I wouldn't be surprised to hear it stated.
Or maybe he's just is referring to DPLIIx encoding? DPLII encoding has been fairly succussful this generation, and does not take many resources. Maybe they are planning a DPLIIx implementation?
While its true that DD EX and DTS ES aren't 7.1 natively, DPLIIx can convert them. While that's stretching the truth, I wouldn't be surprised to hear it stated.
Or maybe he's just is referring to DPLIIx encoding? DPLII encoding has been fairly succussful this generation, and does not take many resources. Maybe they are planning a DPLIIx implementation?
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Crazymoogle said:
Yes, that is the rub, isn't it......he doesn't have what you would call a good reputation in this area, to say the least....
Hmmm....could be...
MS *is* paying for that Dolby Digital Plus license though....I am certain of it....
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Oh, I am not taking it the wrong way.....just trying to figure out what Microsoft's intentions are..
*conspiracy theory*Perhaps this confusion is Microsoft's intent */conspiracy theory*
*conspiracy theory*Perhaps this confusion is Microsoft's intent */conspiracy theory*
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Megatoon??
Korranator
Member
FixedKleegamefan said:
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
The way it works is...lets say you have a HD-DVD/BRD movie disk....the audio is recorded as high-resolution dts-HD or Dolby Digital Plus in a minimum of 7.1 discrete HD surround audio...
You play the disk on your blue laser movie player.
If you have a current HT Reciever and wanted to get surround sound, you would use the optical out of the HD movie player to the optical input of your reciever......that reciever only has a Dolby Digital/dts decoder but thankfully it will play a downsampled audio stream as DD5.1 or dts 5.1.....it *could* use the optical audio stream for DD+/dts-HD but they choose not to.....DD+ has a max bandwidth of 6Mb/sec, well under the limits of the optical connector (~10Mb/sec)
OK, so lets say Xmas 2006 your grandpa buys you a fancy new AV reciever, only this one has HDMI inputs (in addition to the optical ones) and both a DD+ and dts-HD decoder....you could use the HDMI output on your HD movie player to the HDMI input of the new reciever and it would decode/output it as high-res 7.1 surround sound instead of regular res Dolby Digital/dts 5.1
That is how it works, it seems...
You play the disk on your blue laser movie player.
If you have a current HT Reciever and wanted to get surround sound, you would use the optical out of the HD movie player to the optical input of your reciever......that reciever only has a Dolby Digital/dts decoder but thankfully it will play a downsampled audio stream as DD5.1 or dts 5.1.....it *could* use the optical audio stream for DD+/dts-HD but they choose not to.....DD+ has a max bandwidth of 6Mb/sec, well under the limits of the optical connector (~10Mb/sec)
OK, so lets say Xmas 2006 your grandpa buys you a fancy new AV reciever, only this one has HDMI inputs (in addition to the optical ones) and both a DD+ and dts-HD decoder....you could use the HDMI output on your HD movie player to the HDMI input of the new reciever and it would decode/output it as high-res 7.1 surround sound instead of regular res Dolby Digital/dts 5.1
That is how it works, it seems...
PS3 doesn't need anything larger than DVDs! HD Video? HD audio? JUST COMPRESS IT MORE. YEAH THAT'LL WORK.
DEVELOPERS R JUST LAZY. THEY SHOULD SPEND 5 YEARS COMPRESSING. :lol
I remember arguing with people that PS3 needs the space of BR.
DEVELOPERS R JUST LAZY. THEY SHOULD SPEND 5 YEARS COMPRESSING. :lol
I remember arguing with people that PS3 needs the space of BR.
Naked Snake
Member
Kleegamefan said:
Are you sure PS3 can play Super Audio CDs? Where did you read that?
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
In the official PLAYSTATION 3 Press release 
http://www.us.playstation.com/PressReleases.aspx?id=279
Its under disk media....also there are pics of the top of the PS3 with the SACD logo there
http://www.us.playstation.com/PressReleases.aspx?id=279
Its under disk media....also there are pics of the top of the PS3 with the SACD logo there
Naked Snake
Member
Strange cause I could have sworn that I looked for it in the press release and the PS3 images and didn't find it back when the PS3 was announced... anyway, awesome news!
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Oh it was definately there during E3....I remember being stoked by it because I alread have a good library of SACDs
There is a larger version of this photo around somewhere but this is the best we could find:
If you find a larger version and look closely, you will see the SACD logo, like this:
And yes this is the PS3 version of the SACD logo
There is a larger version of this photo around somewhere but this is the best we could find:
If you find a larger version and look closely, you will see the SACD logo, like this:
And yes this is the PS3 version of the SACD logo
Any chance Sony will even attempt to put DSD on the BluRay spec as an option (for movies, music discs, concerts, etc)?
Since HDMI 1.2 should be in usage for even the first BluRay players, why not add it in? I suppose nothing is technically preventing a studio from doing it on there own - or is something like that not allowed by the BluRay forum? I'm not really familiar with how the DVD forum and other similar structures ran things.
I just don't want to see DSD die. Part of its pesonal, but I think there's a very good reason to keep it going. Obviously MLP is the natural progression of CD's, but DSD is just cooler
The tech is a much more natural representation of sound since it's so similar to analog.
More importantly however ... we just don't know enough about human hearing. As this knowledge improves, so will recording, production, and speaker technology. At that point, it's very possible that DSD's differing tech will prove to be more accurate representation of the original sound being recorded. ie - it may sound significantly better.
Since HDMI 1.2 should be in usage for even the first BluRay players, why not add it in? I suppose nothing is technically preventing a studio from doing it on there own - or is something like that not allowed by the BluRay forum? I'm not really familiar with how the DVD forum and other similar structures ran things.
I just don't want to see DSD die. Part of its pesonal, but I think there's a very good reason to keep it going. Obviously MLP is the natural progression of CD's, but DSD is just cooler
The tech is a much more natural representation of sound since it's so similar to analog.More importantly however ... we just don't know enough about human hearing. As this knowledge improves, so will recording, production, and speaker technology. At that point, it's very possible that DSD's differing tech will prove to be more accurate representation of the original sound being recorded. ie - it may sound significantly better.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
What I believe you are talking about, Onyx, is not DCD but DSD (aka Direct Stream Digital) which is used exclusively with SACDs
Direct Stream Digital is a different(and much more precise) way of capturing an analog audio waveform and converting that waveform to a digital signal that can be stored on, say, an optical disk(to name just one)...the traditional way is called PCM or Pulse Code Modulation...they are codecs...
Not only does a DSD stream more resemble the original analog waveform but it is a much more direct conversion...hence the name Direct Stream Digital:
DSD technology, in comparison is based on a 1-bit sample at very high sampling rates (up to 2.822Mhz ) around 64 times faster than the audio CD PCM standard of 44.1Khz and more than 14 times faster than the highest PCM sampling rate of 192Khz (used for 2 channel MLP) The sampling bit rate of PCM is either 16,18,20 and 24 bit.....DSD samples, in comparison, are bit by bit (1 bit)The resulting digital bitstream more closely resembles the analog source signal that is being encoded in theory.....natively recorded DSD audio is 100% transparent....as if the performance is being performed live....there is no upgrade from here...
Also keep in mind DSD=SACD and MLP=DVD-Audio (and now Blu-ray/HD-DVD)
DSD/MLP are delivery system/codec and SACD/DVD-A are the physical format...
If you are talking about SACD then you are also talking about DSD...so yes, DSD(and SACD) will live on in PLAYSTATION 3
If you want to learn more about SACD and DSD, Sony has a fantastic whitepaper on it:
http://www.superaudio-cd.com/technology_explained/detailed_information/whitepaper.pdf
As far as including DSD in the audio spec of BRD, they are already using a better version of MLP called Dolby Digital Lossless.....DDL/MLP offer similar performance to SACD/DSD so no worries
Direct Stream Digital is a different(and much more precise) way of capturing an analog audio waveform and converting that waveform to a digital signal that can be stored on, say, an optical disk(to name just one)...the traditional way is called PCM or Pulse Code Modulation...they are codecs...
Not only does a DSD stream more resemble the original analog waveform but it is a much more direct conversion...hence the name Direct Stream Digital:
DSD technology, in comparison is based on a 1-bit sample at very high sampling rates (up to 2.822Mhz ) around 64 times faster than the audio CD PCM standard of 44.1Khz and more than 14 times faster than the highest PCM sampling rate of 192Khz (used for 2 channel MLP) The sampling bit rate of PCM is either 16,18,20 and 24 bit.....DSD samples, in comparison, are bit by bit (1 bit)The resulting digital bitstream more closely resembles the analog source signal that is being encoded in theory.....natively recorded DSD audio is 100% transparent....as if the performance is being performed live....there is no upgrade from here...
Also keep in mind DSD=SACD and MLP=DVD-Audio (and now Blu-ray/HD-DVD)
DSD/MLP are delivery system/codec and SACD/DVD-A are the physical format...
If you are talking about SACD then you are also talking about DSD...so yes, DSD(and SACD) will live on in PLAYSTATION 3
If you want to learn more about SACD and DSD, Sony has a fantastic whitepaper on it:
http://www.superaudio-cd.com/technology_explained/detailed_information/whitepaper.pdf
As far as including DSD in the audio spec of BRD, they are already using a better version of MLP called Dolby Digital Lossless.....DDL/MLP offer similar performance to SACD/DSD so no worries
Klee,
Yes, I am referring to DSD - that's what I get for posting while half asleep. Thanks for the link, pretty interesting read. I'm actually pretty familiar with the tech (been using SACD for several years), but the white paper is a nice collection of info!
What I was trying to say, is that I'd like to see DSD added as one of the options for BluRay audio recordings. If it isn't included as an option on one of the new formats, it'll probably die off
SACD and DVD-A are pretty much DOA, but at least MLP tech will live on as DDL.
I haven't looked into the differences in DDL versus the original MLP, but I don't think we can really say it offers similar performance to DSD - we just don't know yet. I'm pretty sure it's sampling rate isn't even close, so DSD may still have some advantages. We may not be able to hear them now, but we may in the future - IF DSD isn't killed off first.
Yes, I am referring to DSD - that's what I get for posting while half asleep. Thanks for the link, pretty interesting read. I'm actually pretty familiar with the tech (been using SACD for several years), but the white paper is a nice collection of info!
What I was trying to say, is that I'd like to see DSD added as one of the options for BluRay audio recordings. If it isn't included as an option on one of the new formats, it'll probably die off
SACD and DVD-A are pretty much DOA, but at least MLP tech will live on as DDL.I haven't looked into the differences in DDL versus the original MLP, but I don't think we can really say it offers similar performance to DSD - we just don't know yet. I'm pretty sure it's sampling rate isn't even close, so DSD may still have some advantages. We may not be able to hear them now, but we may in the future - IF DSD isn't killed off first.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Onyx said:What I was trying to say, is that I'd like to see DSD added as one of the options for BluRay audio recordings. If it isn't included as an option on one of the new formats, it'll probably die off
Sadly, it may die off (I too am a big fan of DSD audio) because although you will probably see 100M SACD players with PS3, the BRD/HD-DVD format isn't applying DSD tech, so it will probably die before long
Onyx said:
Welp, according to this slide from the first page, DDL will have 8 (instead of 6) channels and has nearly twice the bandwidth of MLP....
Now I don't read japanese but it seems like that will be enough bandwidth for 6 or perhaps even 8 channels of 24-bit/192Khz sound....DVD-A could only handle 2 channels of 24/192 because of the bandwidth limitations of the DVD disk.....no such problems now
KLee,
Wow ... not bad. That should be pretty impressive sounding.
I guess I'm just concerned if we may find out later, we've made a mistake ...
Yes, I'm quoting myself
I'm just worried that down the road, we might find out something like improved imaging needs spacial cues that cannot be resolved accurately at 192kHz. I guess I shouldn't worry though, it'll probably take a while for our knowledge base to dramatically improve. DSD can always be re-introduced when we're ready for it.
Wow ... not bad. That should be pretty impressive sounding.
I guess I'm just concerned if we may find out later, we've made a mistake ...
onix said:
Yes, I'm quoting myself
I'm just worried that down the road, we might find out something like improved imaging needs spacial cues that cannot be resolved accurately at 192kHz. I guess I shouldn't worry though, it'll probably take a while for our knowledge base to dramatically improve. DSD can always be re-introduced when we're ready for it.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Great post....I agree 100%