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AusPoliGAF |OT| Boats? What Boats?

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Y

Yagharek

Member
It's only 7pm in WA, but they just had a promo for 730 report.

"Coming up tonight on the 730 report ... blah blah, blah blah, and Clive Palmer live".

Clive Palmer Live

Either 730 Report has a new satirical segment, or that would make a wonderful local alternative to Disney on Ice.
 
J

Jintor

Member
This political circus is going exactly as planned

What a great image though

59744cbe-3d7b-4960-9b68-606d9b211e78-460x276.jpeg


Fuck, that's a reaction image if i've ever seen one
 
H

hidys

Member
Antony Green has a write up on the Victorian parliament.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-04/green-the-bloody-road-to-an-early-victorian-election/5498992

This whole thing is a pretty bad look for Napthine, namely that if he wants to hold onto power, he will have to defend Shaw for his misuse of privileges.

The former Premier John Cain also made a good point, namely that if you've lost the confidence of the house you should resign as Premier.

There may be an advantage in an early election for Labor though if they frame it as a referendum on Abbott's budget.
 
E

Elaugaufein

Member
hidys said:
Antony Green has a write up on the Victorian parliament.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-04/green-the-bloody-road-to-an-early-victorian-election/5498992

This whole thing is a pretty bad look for Napthine, namely that if he wants to hold onto power, he will have to defend Shaw for his misuse of privileges.

The former Premier John Cain also made a good point, namely that if you've lost the confidence of the house you should resign as Premier.

There may be an advantage in an early election for Labor though if they frame it as a referendum on Abbott's budget.
Click to expand...

That would be profoundly dangerous given that as a state government they can't do jack about the Federal Budget. Also the Victorian Government despite being Coalition hasn't been singing the Federal Budget's praises, so it would be a hard sell to attach it to them. I guess they could frame it as "sending a message" but given that there's 2 budgets to go before the next Federal Election, it's not a message that's likely to be paid much attention, Federal Governments are well aware that people can be fickle (which is why they tend to do the wildly unpopular crud in their first budget and then hand out welfare like candy to potential support groups thereafter).
 
H

hidys

Member
Elaugaufein said:
That would be profoundly dangerous given that as a state government they can't do jack about the Federal Budget. Also the Victorian Government despite being Coalition hasn't been singing the Federal Budget's praises, so it would be a hard sell to attach it to them. I guess they could frame it as "sending a message" but given that there's 2 budgets to go before the next Federal Election, it's not a message that's likely to be paid much attention, Federal Governments are well aware that people can be fickle (which is why they tend to do the wildly unpopular crud in their first budget and then hand out welfare like candy to potential support groups thereafter).
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It wouldn't be the central theme of the election, but it would sure as shit will feature in the election campaign. Abbott is not popular anywhere right now but in Victoria he is hated (he didn't even get a majority of Victorian seats in the last election). Linking Abbott to Napthine would not be hard regardless of whether the state could do anything about the federal budget or not. I'm willing to bet that no matter when the election is held Abbott will feature prominently in the ALP's attack ads.
 
F

Fredescu

Member
DrSlek said:
Here's an industry that's about to go gangbusters, and we're still focused on digging holes in the ground.
Click to expand...

Existing business is more important than future business because fuck the future. See also: NBN. If the Libs cared about "business" like they say they do, the NBN and renewables would be high priorities. Instead it's all about protecting established interests.

Not that protecting established interests is a fault with the Libs alone. It's impossible to get ahead in politics without powerful friends who expect their favours returned. A party that makes life easier for small business sounds awesome in theory, but libs aint that.

Labor are just as bad, far more likely to kow tow to conservative union leaders than to implement socially progressive policies. Also, it's hard to call hard core hippies "established interests" but they're the main thing preventing the Greens from being a decent third way. The actual policy page on the Greens reads ok, but they're always going to be a bit mad because half of their base are Gaia worshipping loonies.
 
D

Dryk

Member
Between the EU, the US and China (assuming Tone doesn't smother their ETS in the crib like they're warning) the carbon tariffs alone are going to sink us, let alone the political fallout and lagging further behind technologically.
DrSlek said:
Ugh. We're going to be left far behind when the renewable energy industry takes off.

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...mes-that-australias-prime-minister-cannot-see

Here's an industry that's about to go gangbusters, and we're still focused on digging holes in the ground.
Click to expand...
Well the CSIRO just ran a world-first solar thermal supercritical steam test using ARENA funding... fuck everything
 
L

Lafiel

と呼ぶがよい
Fredescu said:
Existing business is more important than future business because fuck the future. See also: NBN. If the Libs cared about "business" like they say they do, the NBN and renewables would be high priorities. Instead it's all about protecting established interests.

Not that protecting established interests is a fault with the Libs alone. It's impossible to get ahead in politics without powerful friends who expect their favours returned. A party that makes life easier for small business sounds awesome in theory, but libs aint that.

Labor are just as bad, far more likely to kow tow to conservative union leaders than to implement socially progressive policies. Also, it's hard to call hard core hippies "established interests" but they're the main thing preventing the Greens from being a decent third way. The actual policy page on the Greens reads ok, but they're always going to be a bit mad because half of their base are Gaia worshipping loonies.
Click to expand...

In terms of that characterization of the greens.. to some degree it's accurate, but I've felt they've gotten better at it over the years, their vaccination policy is extremely good, pro-reality and pro-science, their GMO policy is still questionable, although that has more to do with the left in terms of the political discourse being unable to differentiate between the technology of GMO (which is proven safe) and the business practices of Monsanto (which are questionable).
 
F

Fredescu

Member
Quote of the day:

“Ask right-wingers how the U.S. economy will cope with limited supplies of raw materials, land, and other resources, and they respond with great optimism: the magic of the marketplace will lead us to solutions,” Krugman writes. “But they abruptly lose their faith in market magic when someone proposes limits on pollution — limits that would largely be imposed in market-friendly ways like cap-and-trade systems.”

From: http://www.salon.com/2014/06/06/paul_krugman_slams_climate_denying_gop_for_descent_into_madness/
 
O

Odothehero

Member
Fredescu said:
Quote of the day:

“Ask right-wingers how the U.S. economy will cope with limited supplies of raw materials, land, and other resources, and they respond with great optimism: the magic of the marketplace will lead us to solutions,” Krugman writes. “But they abruptly lose their faith in market magic when someone proposes limits on pollution — limits that would largely be imposed in market-friendly ways like cap-and-trade systems.”

From: http://www.salon.com/2014/06/06/paul_krugman_slams_climate_denying_gop_for_descent_into_madness/
Click to expand...

I sometimes think that if studying economics was compulsory in schools, at least the debates we'd be having would be based in reason. But then in my more pessimistic moments I think that it probably wouldn't help much anyway
 
D

Dead Man

Member
Arksy said:
Dear Liberal Party;

I am hereby resigning my position within the party and withdrawing my membership. The other side has cake.

Regards,
Arksy.
Click to expand...
Damn, sorry to hear that mate. Well, in some ways. Sorry they are not what they sold themselves as or what you thought they were.

Jintor said:
One of the weirder articles I've read on far-right/anti-fascist groups. By Safran.
Click to expand...
The police line is porous and far-righters and anti-fascists have met up at points, but only a subset of anti-fascists, the trade unionists. The hippies and others are standing well back. A dozen big men surround one skinny Australia First guy in a leather jacket.

"Why's he shaking, mate?" an old, grey-haired man from the CFMEU sarcastically asks a colleague.

"Because he's shit-scared," a handsome young guy with a red beard replies.

"Is he?" sing-songs Mr Sarcastic.

"He's petrified," says Red Beard.

"You mean he's scared of us spilling some of his claret on this cement?" continues Mr Sarcastic. He turns to his army. "None of youse would spill any of his claret on the cement now, would ya?"

"Nah!" scream the workers.

"F...in' oath!" announces one.

An Islander goes nose-to-nose with the petrified Australian Firster, whose name is Michael Cole. "Welcome to the future," snaps the Islander.

Cole ducks between the men.

"Weak!" one man shouts after him.

"NAZI SCUM OFF OUR STREETS!" roar the rest.
Click to expand...

Warmed my heart until they started calling people faggots :/ Very weird situation.
 
V

viciouskillersquirrel

Member
Dead Man said:
Warmed my heart until they started calling people faggots :/ Very weird situation.
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Warmed my heart regardless. It means Australian society has succeeded in making Greek Australians feel a part of the greater whole. Just because that greater whole has some unwholesome elements to it doesn't take away from that.

You watch, in 2050, journalists will be interviewing a man named Lachlan Nguyen on the news (whatever form that takes) about his far-right, anti-immigrant views. He'll say something along the lines of how he is a direct descendent of first fleet convicts on one side of his family and that the other side has been in this country for over 80 years and doesn't see why the government spends all this money so dirty foreigners can live high on the hog while hard working Australians like himself are struggling.
 
A

Arksy

Member
bobnowhere said:
Interesting insight to the "factionless" factions in the Liberal party.

Crimes



A world where Scott Morrison, Hawke and Brandis are considered moderates is a frightening place.
Click to expand...

As an insider I can tell you that the chart is (mostly) bullshit. Pyne/Brandis/Hockey & Turnbull are all wets.
 
B

bobnowhere

Member
Arksy said:
As an insider I can tell you that the chart is (mostly) bullshit. Pyne/Brandis/Hockey & Turnbull are all wets.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, I wasn't taking it too seriously! I half expected Pyne to show up in every section, I imagine he's like a Remora fish, attaching himself underneath whoever the biggest fish is at that moment.
 
B

bomma_man

Member
Odothehero said:
I sometimes think that if studying economics was compulsory in schools, at least the debates we'd be having would be based in reason. But then in my more pessimistic moments I think that it probably wouldn't help much anyway
Click to expand...

I get the feeling that certain parties would prefer if it wasn't...
 
H

hidys

Member
Arksy said:
As an insider I can tell you that the chart is (mostly) bullshit. Pyne/Brandis/Hockey & Turnbull are all wets.
Click to expand...

I would say the old Wet/Dry distinction is somewhat of a misnomer now a days. It was a distinction which meant something in the 1980's when both hated each other but now many wets like Christopher Pyne and George Brandis would be far more inclined to support Tony Abbott than Malcolm Turnbull. I wouldn't be surprised if there are formal alliances between notionally Wet and Dry Liberals.
 
H

hidys

Member
Odothehero said:
I sometimes think that if studying economics was compulsory in schools, at least the debates we'd be having would be based in reason. But then in my more pessimistic moments I think that it probably wouldn't help much anyway
Click to expand...

I would fight against this with every fiber of my being if it was taught the way its currently taught at most universities (speaking as an economics graduate).
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Arksy said:
As an insider I can tell you that the chart is (mostly) bullshit. Pyne/Brandis/Hockey & Turnbull are all wets.
Click to expand...
Damp maybe. Dewy?

hidys said:
I would fight against this with every fiber of my being if it was taught the way its currently taught at most universities (speaking as an economics graduate).
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'd imagine something broader like PPE would be a better idea than planting the concept of homo economicus in every high schooler's mind.
 
Y

Yagharek

Member
Odothehero said:
I sometimes think that if studying economics was compulsory in schools, at least the debates we'd be having would be based in reason. But then in my more pessimistic moments I think that it probably wouldn't help much anyway
Click to expand...

I think economics should only be studied in schools once economists start studying actual mathematics and develop a social conscience.
 
V

viciouskillersquirrel

Member
Yagharek said:
I think economics should only be studied in schools once economists start studying actual mathematics and develop a social conscience.
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Economic theories in and of themselves are dangerous without fully understanding the political assumptions behind the models. You basically have to have a history course running alongside it.
 
A

Arksy

Member
This is how economics works in my mind:

"Hey guys, if we set up some incredibly strict boundary conditions that wouldn't never happen in the real world we see that there maybe, sometimes ought to be a correlation between these two variables. Unfortunately, here's a list of about three thousand exceptions and cases that even within these boundary conditions of this not working....but it makes sense sometimes right? Ok cool. We'll call it a law."
 
B

bomma_man

Member
Arksy said:
This is how economics works in my mind:

"Hey guys, if we set up some incredibly strict boundary conditions that wouldn't never happen in the real world we see that there maybe, sometimes ought to be a correlation between these two variables. Unfortunately, here's a list of about three thousand exceptions and cases that even within these boundary conditions of this not working....but it makes sense sometimes right? Ok cool. We'll call it a law."
Click to expand...

It's a social science that likes to think its hard, on top of being incredibly political.

It certainly has value though.
 
Y

Yagharek

Member
bomma_man said:
It's a social science that likes to think its hard, on top of being incredibly political.

It certainly has value though.
Click to expand...

Tell that to the millions who lost large portions of their life savings thanks to fraudulent economists in the past several years.

Those cunts should be in guantanamo bay for all the damage theyve done.
 
H

hidys

Member
Yagharek said:
Tell that to the millions who lost large portions of their life savings thanks to fraudulent economists in the past several years.

Those cunts should be in guantanamo bay for all the damage theyve done.
Click to expand...

Claiming that economists acted fraudulently is drawing a long bow. They definitely acted unethically, working closely with Wall Street to promote their ideas nut it would be hard to prove fraud. I do believe that the economic profession should have to adhere to a code of ethics that governed certain action (eg: not advising non-democratic governments to undertake radical economic reforms ala Milton Friedman in Chile).

Arksy said:
This is how economics works in my mind:

"Hey guys, if we set up some incredibly strict boundary conditions that wouldn't never happen in the real world we see that there maybe, sometimes ought to be a correlation between these two variables. Unfortunately, here's a list of about three thousand exceptions and cases that even within these boundary conditions of this not working....but it makes sense sometimes right? Ok cool. We'll call it a law."
Click to expand...

That is certainly true for some theories but I wouldn't dismiss the whole profession based on this.
 
J

jey_16

Banned
wow....just watching this Palmer piece on Sunday night, can't believe these people are representing our country. Ricky Muir couldn't even explain what the balance of power is and got elected with 0.51% of the vote
 
Y

Yagharek

Member
hidys said:
Claiming that economists acted fraudulently is drawing a long bow. They definitely acted unethically, working closely with Wall Street to promote their ideas nut it would be hard to prove fraud.
Click to expand...

A few trillion dollars went missing. Fraud happened.
 
H

hidys

Member
Yagharek said:
I mean the whole lot of them. Collusion, cartels, systemic fraud.
Click to expand...

Again I say there is no evidence to suggest economists engaged in outright fraud. Many of the policies with which they advocated were dangerous and completely disastrous but to suggest fraud on this basis is very misguided.

EDIT: It would be very helpful if you could name a specific economists who committed fraud.
 
Y

Yagharek

Member
If you name someone, that's a specific slanderous accusation if you can't prove it. I'm not putting that in writing.

Also, you're taking both sides here. On one hand you claim that fraud is a specific charge, and given the statute of limitations has expired, meaning by definition no-one responsible for the loss of trillions of dollars can be convicted of fraud.

So technically, I can only legally concede "no economist committed fraud".

But we all know they lost trillions of dollars. They improperly rated stock/products. They were involved in the deregulation/end of the Glass-Steagel (sp) Act.
 
H

hidys

Member
Yagharek said:
If you name someone, that's a specific slanderous accusation if you can't prove it. I'm not putting that in writing.

Also, you're taking both sides here. On one hand you claim that fraud is a specific charge, and given the statute of limitations has expired, meaning by definition no-one responsible for the loss of trillions of dollars can be convicted of fraud.

So technically, I can only legally concede "no economist committed fraud".

But we all know they lost trillions of dollars. They improperly rated stock/products. They were involved in the deregulation/end of the Glass-Steagel (sp) Act.
Click to expand...

I for one don't mind saying that the rating agencies who rated the sub-prime mortgage backed securities as AAA assets committed fraud. I would go a step further and say economists who knowingly rated the assets as such also committed fraud (some of which would have been economists employed as financiers and others not). I never said that they had to have been charged with anything. In truth many who worked in these institutions got away with the murder and the worst part is much of what they did was legal.

The worst charge that can be thrown at the advocates for the repeal of Glass-Steagall is being wrong and misguided. I don't think that advocates for its repeal should be necessarily punished. It is also important to bear in mind that the act was one cause of the crisis, it was not the singular cause.

So really it seems like there isn't much of an argument here as we both agree they acted improperly. But I don't think an accusation of fraud of any kind is accurate.
 
A

Arksy

Member
hidys said:
That is certainly true for some theories but I wouldn't dismiss the whole profession based on this.
Click to expand...

I was having a bit of a laugh, I don't dismiss economics at all. It's good that people are trying to understand one of the most complex systems out there.
 
B

bomma_man

Member
Yagharek said:
Tell that to the millions who lost large portions of their life savings thanks to fraudulent economists in the past several years.

Those cunts should be in guantanamo bay for all the damage theyve done.
Click to expand...

I don't know what you're saying here. We shouldn't study the economy because some cunts are wrong? We shouldn't study society because the soviets misinterpreted Marx? By the same token I could say that Keynes created one of the largest and most equally shared growth periods in history between the 40s and 70s.

#notalleconomists
 
Y

Yagharek

Member
I'm not saying we shouldn't study it. I'm saying there are a lot of either incompetent or misanthropic economists amongst the majority, so far as the ones who exert influence on policy and practice go. The evidence is the GFC, the conditions that were employed that enabled it, and the lack of structural reform since can at least be *partially* attributed to whatever rates as "best economic theory" these days.

edit: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-09/verrender-five-reasons-to-be-wary-of-the-markets/5509068

This was a good read. The fact that crashes are so common and growth represents a violent sawtooth pattern over time (rather than a relatively smoothed curve) is another strong indicator that the models are fucked.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
hidys said:
Claiming that economists acted fraudulently is drawing a long bow. They definitely acted unethically, working closely with Wall Street to promote their ideas nut it would be hard to prove fraud. I do believe that the economic profession should have to adhere to a code of ethics that governed certain action (eg: not advising non-democratic governments to undertake radical economic reforms ala Milton Friedman in Chile).



That is certainly true for some theories but I wouldn't dismiss the whole profession based on this.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't that just be keynesian economics?
 
D

Dryk

Member
jey_16 said:
wow....just watching this Palmer piece on Sunday night, can't believe these people are representing our country. Ricky Muir couldn't even explain what the balance of power is and got elected with 0.51% of the vote
Click to expand...
Ricky Muir is the perfect representative for the people (blind above-the-line voters) that elected him.
 
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