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AusPoliGAF |OT| Boats? What Boats?

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What's the point of reintroducing the bill? It's just going to get shut down again. I can just picture Tone with his snake grin and head that shakes like a Parkinsons victim trying to stammer his way in a debate about why it's bad.
 

Fredescu

Member
Ammunition. They want to be able to point at it and say that Labor/The Greens have been repeatedly obstructing their mandate. This is possibly the worst bill to try that on though.

It seems bizarre that they would consider "borrowing money to underwrite a $10 billion taxpayer funded bank that cherry picks investments in direct competition with the private sector" to be a wedge issue.
 

Dead Man

Member
What's the point of reintroducing the bill? It's just going to get shut down again. I can just picture Tone with his snake grin and head that shakes like a Parkinsons victim trying to stammer his way in a debate about why it's bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_dissolution

The double dissolution provision comes into play if the Senate and House twice fail to agree on a piece of legislation (in section 57 called "a proposed law", and commonly referred to as a "trigger"). The government may use this trigger (or any number of triggers) to recommend the Governor-General dissolve the House and the entire Senate – pursuant to section 57 of the Constitution – and issue writs for an election in which every seat in the Parliament is contested.

The conditions stipulated by section 57 of the Constitution are—

The trigger bill originated in the House of Representatives.
Three months elapsed between the two rejections of the bill by the Senate ("rejection" in this context can extend to the Senate's failure to pass the bill, or to the Senate passing it with amendments to which the House of Representatives will not agree).
The second rejection occurred in the same session as the first, or the subsequent session, but no later.

There is no similar provision for resolving deadlocks with respect to bills that have originated in the Senate and are blocked in the House of Representatives.

Though the Constitution refers to the Governor-General doing certain things, it had until the 1975 Australian constitutional crisis been believed that convention required the Governor-General to act only on the advice of the Prime Minister. However, as the 1975 constitutional crisis demonstrated, the Governor-General is not compelled to follow the Prime Minister's advice. In these cases, he or she must be personally satisfied that the conditions specified in the Constitution apply, and is entitled to seek additional information or advice before coming to a decision.

Not seeing the current governor general have the balls, and I doubt very much the government will call an election at the moment.

Edit: Missed your point, sorry. Yeah, unless they want to call an election it is stupid. Probably just want to call the opposition obstructionist.
 
What's the point of reintroducing the bill? It's just going to get shut down again. I can just picture Tone with his snake grin and head that shakes like a Parkinsons victim trying to stammer his way in a debate about why it's bad.

I imagine it's just to look busy, keep the "mandate" in the news.

Antony Green wrote a good piece about it here.

But two final political points also need to be kept in mind.

First, any attempt to hold a double dissolution under the Senate's current electoral system would be almost impossible. There would be even more parties and candidates contesting given the near halving of the quota for election. There will not be another election until changes are made to the Senate's electoral system. Those changes can be legislated quickly but will need time to be implemented before an election can be held.

A second political point is that the Abbott government's budget is not the sort of budget you introduce if you desire an early election. It is the classic tough first term budget introduced in the hope that in three years time the anger will have subsided and the economy and budget would be in a better position.

Most important thing is Abbott will only call a DD if he thinks he can win, at the moment, all signs point to no. Abbott and Pyne will jump up and down and stamp their feet screaming mandates, but don't forget what Abbott has said on mandates before!

As Tony Abbott said yesterday, “The elected Opposition is no less entitled than the elected Government to exercise its political judgment and to try to keep its election commitments.”

Anyway, this senate is gone in 12 days and a whole new one starts. I'm not sure of the rules, but I imagine this new senate will have to be given the chance to consider the legislation first. We're stuck with Abbott for a while longer at least.
 

senahorse

Member
Victory!

The High Court has ruled in favour of a Queensland father who challenged federal funding for the national schools chaplaincy program.
The challenge was launched by Ron Williams, who says there is no place in public schools for non-secular programs.
Attorney-General George Brandis is considering the decision on behalf of the government.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ins-program-20140619-3af5y.html#ixzz352gBHkcj

What's the bet that wanker Brandis will just ignore it.
 

Arksy

Member
Ignore a court ruling? This is Australia not some tinpot dictatorship. Don't be absurd. Every single Australian government, state or federal has at some point in its lifetime had an instance where a court has told them to go shove a spade up its backside.

In a few lines this is where we're at in constitutional law; (On about 2 gallons of coffee so I apologies for my insane ramblings).

Governments have for the longest time assumed they could spend money and enter into contracts. This is false, they need specific legislation allowing public money to be spent (Pape)

The Federal Government assumed that they could enter into contracts, when specified by legislation on any subject matter. This is false, as federal parliament can only legislation on certain issues they can only ever spend money directly on things that they're allowed to by a head of power under the constitution. (Williams v Cth no. 1) - As an aside there's a power to basically give money to the states for any reasons they want and that's fine

The Federal Government then tried to put a band-aid on the whole thing and decided they'll try directly funding them..they were basically told to go jump this morning.

Basically this case just cements what came before it (from my INITIAL PRIMA FACIE READING);

1. The feds can't fund anything other than a state directly unless there's a head of power. I.e there can be no contracts between local councils and the federal government, they have to go through the state.

2. Once again the power of the Federal Government has been narrowed.

3. The benefits for students head of power has been severely narrowed. The government argued that funding for chaplains was a benefit to students. The High Court rejected that idea. I'm going to need a deeper reading to figure out why exactly...and if secular councilors would be as well (initial reading says yes, that would also fail to be a benefit to students).

4. Oh god I'm so tired and need sleep. Basically this goes a lot further than just chaplains. Any program that the Feds have that doesn't go through a state and is about something that isn't specified as a Federal Power is basically now invalid. This is a lot bigger than it seems on the surface.

Sorry to say, if you were just hoping to destroy the chaplaincy program, you can rest assured that they'll find a constitutional way of funding chaplains....probably by giving grants to the States to fund chaplains directly. There is no doubt in my mind that that would be constitutionally valid.

This is good for people like me though, who think federalism is a good idea...and the full effects remain to be seen...and the news sites have actually done a decent job of explaining what's going on...but this is about a highly technical part of the constitution and how it's meant to operate. It's difficult to explain without another 5k words. I've tried my best though. :D


I expect they will. They will funnel the funding through an intermediary or something.

This case basically says that the intermediary HAS to be a state. Edit: That's what this is about...this is the second instance of the case...the first being told to go jump...so they tried to go through an intermediary and were told they're not allowed to do that either.
 

Jintor

Member
But the States and the Fed are not on the most friendly of terms right now, and if chaplaincy is a divisive enough issue, might be a problem there. Not a knock-out punch or anything re the continuance of the chaplaincy but is significant barrier.

Interested to see what other programs it effects actually.
 

Arksy

Member
But the States and the Fed are not on the most friendly of terms right now, and if chaplaincy is a divisive enough issue, might be a problem there. Not a knock-out punch or anything re the continuance of the chaplaincy but is significant barrier.

Interested to see what other programs it effects actually.

I think the SMH said it affect programs that make up about 10% of the Federal Budget.

The thing is, these laws were invalidated. In other words, they have to get laws through the federal parliament...that will be the cockblock. Not the states, who will gleefully accept money regardless of what its for.
 

Omikron

Member
Interesting given the states are pissed that the feds want to cut funding for the 10 -> 15 hrs of kindergarten reforms that the labor government put in place.
 

Arksy

Member
Interesting given the states are pissed that the feds want to cut funding for the 10 -> 15 hrs of kindergarten reforms that the labor government put in place.

We have a really bizarre system where the Federal Government basically raises all taxation. This is mainly due to the Federal Government failing to give up their income tax after the war when they stole the power from the states.
 

Arksy

Member
Double post/Mini-rant before I pass out despite the fact my phone is exploding with all my conlaw nerd friends discussing the ruling:

- The media are doing a decent job of it...but people just see the headlines "Chaplaincy Programs Unconstitutional" and jump to all sorts of conclusions. I feel sorry for all those that are going to be disappointed when they hear that it has nothing to do with the content of the program as much as the way the program was established.
 

Dead Man

Member
This case basically says that the intermediary HAS to be a state. Edit: That's what this is about...this is the second instance of the case...the first being told to go jump...so they tried to go through an intermediary and were told they're not allowed to do that either.

Ah, cheers :)


As I keep telling people, there isn't that much difference between the two majors. Labor are a lost cause. The Greens are a basket case internally and too fringe on enough issues that they will never be a power. We have no credible progressive party in Australia.
 

Yagharek

Member
Chaplain Apologists on ABC24 at the moment. Unqualified, dangerous and counter-productive charlatans.

Oh god, this woman thinks she is capable of treating depression, anxiety and grief. Dodges the homosexuality issue too. Claims to be not biased unlike secular workers. Claims to be able to do the same work as a psychologist.


FUCK OFF
 

Dead Man

Member
Chaplain Apologists on ABC24 at the moment. Unqualified, dangerous and counter-productive charlatans.

Oh god, this woman thinks she is capable of treating depression, anxiety and grief. Dodges the homosexuality issue too. Claims to be not biased unlike secular workers. Claims to be able to do the same work as a psychologist.


FUCK OFF

131816524161.gif


I just can't deal with it any more. I am so glad I have no kids at the moment, I would be ropeable.
 
Ah, cheers :)



As I keep telling people, there isn't that much difference between the two majors. Labor are a lost cause. The Greens are a basket case internally and too fringe on enough issues that they will never be a power. We have no credible progressive party in Australia.

I'm not sure a credible progressive party can exist given the conditions you stipulate. The "fringe" the Green's are on largely is progressive (or closer to center than progressive) policy with a handful of exceptions (the only one that springs immediately to mind is their blanket opposition to Nuclear Power but I'm sure there's a few others but a brief look at their website isn't turning up anything particularly controversial).

Edit - Okay , having had a closer look (http://greens.org.au/policy-platform) , blanket opposition to GMO , maybe the blanket opposition to Live Animal Export , and their natural resources policy may also be a bit overzealous.
 

Yagharek

Member
The fringe Green reputation is one that has been cultivated by Labor/Liberal. Just as the false message has been repeated ad infinitum that Labor have no financial credibility, so too are the Greens "understood" at large to be the fringe loonies who chain themselves to trees and whales.

They are much more nuanced than that, and the quick, thoughtless and instant dismissal of them is the reflex attitude the duopoly wants the majority to have in their mind.
 

Dead Man

Member
I'm not sure a credible progressive party can exist given the conditions you stipulate. The "fringe" the Green's are on largely is progressive (or closer to center than progressive) policy with a handful of exceptions (the only one that springs immediately to mind is their blanket opposition to Nuclear Power but I'm sure there's a few others but a brief look at their website isn't turning up anything particularly controversial).
Nuclear power is the main thing I am talking about in that regard. It was not my main criticism of them in a wider sense of their assessment by the voting public, just my personal assessment. I did word that very poorly re reading it, lol :) They are what I would call a progressive party. They need to be more evidence based to be credible to me is probably what I should have said.

Their internal structure is a mess and is why they will never be a serious challenge. They are a mess internally (at least at the state level I have interacted with) and their whole structure is fine for an organisation trying to be activists but terrible for a political party.
 
Chaplain Apologists on ABC24 at the moment. Unqualified, dangerous and counter-productive charlatans.

Oh god, this woman thinks she is capable of treating depression, anxiety and grief. Dodges the homosexuality issue too. Claims to be not biased unlike secular workers. Claims to be able to do the same work as a psychologist.


FUCK OFF

As someone who studied psych and did some practicals/part time work in schools as a school psychologist, i have had quite a bit of exposure to chaplins at schools. Some were BRILLIANT (they take some of the low priority students like self-esteem etc... and they work with you and communicate with you and pass high priority mental health issues immediately to you) to the absolute useless people that were IMO doing more potential damage then good (not communicating with psych's/nurse/care team/admin - trying to treat serious mental health issues with absolutely no oversight nor training to deal with it).

There is no doubt in my mind however that while there are some great chaplains out there, there are just as many bad ones and each school needs to find the time to review their chaplains position in the school. I am not saying lets get rid of chaplains - the great ones are INVALUABLE in schools but others are just unbelievably bad that you would be spending half of your time cleaning up their mess - but individual chaplains need to be reviewed form a high, independent level that goes beyond the school admin level.
 

Jintor

Member
Trying to source this, but I think Brandis found a way to save the current chaplaincy programs:

BqeAjoBCEAElM9M.png


1) Since payments were invalidly made, payments made are now debts owed to the Commonwealth

2) However, the Minister for Finances can waive Commonwealth debts

3) Free money for chaplaincy
 

Yagharek

Member
As someone who studied psych and did some practicals/part time work in schools as a school psychologist, i have had quite a bit of exposure to chaplins at schools. Some were BRILLIANT (they take some of the low priority students like self-esteem etc... and they work with you and communicate with you and pass high priority mental health issues immediately to you) to the absolute useless people that were IMO doing more potential damage then good (not communicating with psych's/nurse/care team/admin - trying to treat serious mental health issues with absolutely no oversight nor training to deal with it).

There is no doubt in my mind however that while there are some great chaplains out there, there are just as many bad ones and each school needs to find the time to review their chaplains position in the school. I am not saying lets get rid of chaplains - the great ones are INVALUABLE in schools but others are just unbelievably bad that you would be spending half of your time cleaning up their mess - but individual chaplains need to be reviewed form a high, independent level that goes beyond the school admin level.

My wife is a clinical psychologist. She has seen chaplains, well meaning though they may be, step well outside the boundaries of their training. They go to google for mental health evaluation tests, use the adult tests on young adolescents, make their own "expert" diagnoses and that has repurcussions for months with people who are given what they are led to believe is a formal diagnosis. It's not out of the realms of possibility they are also out there practicing their own warped versions of CBT.

The problem with chaplains is they are stepping outside of the role of spiritual pastoral care (which shouldnt be in state schools anyway) and attempting to fulfil the role of counselor, social worker, psychologist and fucking up people's lives. The fact that they will inevitably be giving non-expert advice to people who are either developing psychosis, are depressed, anxious, questioning their sexuality etc should be frightening to the general population. Especially in the case of psychosis (16-25 is the prime time to develop it) and in issues of sexual identity or sexual health where their faith will often be the guiding principle. I'm sure that will work out just great for Christians who are anxious and discover they might have same-sex attraction.

Being a well-meaning untrained social worker is one thing. Making serious assessments based on no formal qualifications or training is deadly. I'd like to think that myself, as a scientist/technician I have a pretty good understanding of the principles of flight. The maths, the fluid mechanics, the environmental considerations and hazards. That doesn't mean I'm qualified to fly an A380. The same applies here.

Get these chaplains out of schools and get trained counsellors in there instead. People who know the limits of their training, the limits of what they can legally do, and who know the appropriate referral system to get young people the help they need.

As a psychology student in the past surely you should know that the majority of adult mental health issues are often a result of youth issues that were never addressed adequately. Putting people in who are actually running harmful ad-hoc programs off their own back is antithetical to a system which promotes good mental health outcomes for people as they grow up.
 
My wife is a clinical psychologist. She has seen chaplains, well meaning though they may be, step well outside the boundaries of their training. They go to google for mental health evaluation tests, use the adult tests on young adolescents, make their own "expert" diagnoses and that has repurcussions for months with people who are given what they are led to believe is a formal diagnosis. It's not out of the realms of possibility they are also out there practicing their own warped versions of CBT.

The problem with chaplains is they are stepping outside of the role of spiritual pastoral care (which shouldnt be in state schools anyway) and attempting to fulfil the role of counselor, social worker, psychologist and fucking up people's lives. The fact that they will inevitably be giving non-expert advice to people who are either developing psychosis, are depressed, anxious, questioning their sexuality etc should be frightening to the general population. Especially in the case of psychosis (16-25 is the prime time to develop it) and in issues of sexual identity or sexual health where their faith will often be the guiding principle. I'm sure that will work out just great for Christians who are anxious and discover they might have same-sex attraction.

Being a well-meaning untrained social worker is one thing. Making serious assessments based on no formal qualifications or training is deadly. I'd like to think that myself, as a scientist/technician I have a pretty good understanding of the principles of flight. The maths, the fluid mechanics, the environmental considerations and hazards. That doesn't mean I'm qualified to fly an A380. The same applies here.

Get these chaplains out of schools and get trained counsellors in there instead. People who know the limits of their training, the limits of what they can legally do, and who know the appropriate referral system to get young people the help they need.

As a psychology student in the past surely you should know that the majority of adult mental health issues are often a result of youth issues that were never addressed adequately. Putting people in who are actually running harmful ad-hoc programs off their own back is antithetical to a system which promotes good mental health outcomes for people as they grow up.

Oh absolutely agree with basically everything you have posted - however in most states chaplains are not going anywhere. The reason in my state that you basically see every school with a chaplain is because they are cheap - VERY cheap to hire and staff and principals will take them on eagerly because extra "support" at minimal cost is seen as a fantastic bonus for them. With less money going into schools and increased costs, you are only going to see more time cut to psychologist hours and more chaplains in schools for longer.

In regards to lack of training and chaplains administering tests that they are most definitely not trained to administer - yes i have seen this and i originally had some examples in my post but decided to change it since it is too recent to discuss on an open forum. Needless to say in some schools there is what i would call "rouge" chaplains that are doing whatever they want with very limited to no oversight by anyone and it is a massive problem, especially those chaplains that isolate themselves and refuse to communicate on almost any level with members of staff.

In the end it all comes down to money and ineffective school administration (in some schools). It would be fantastic to have a school psychologist and counsellors in school as a combination.
 

Yagharek

Member
They could, if it is unaffordable, have counsellors at a district level too, so theyre spending say 2 days a week in each of say, 4 or 5 schools.
 
Trying to source this, but I think Brandis found a way to save the current chaplaincy programs:

BqeAjoBCEAElM9M.png


1) Since payments were invalidly made, payments made are now debts owed to the Commonwealth

2) However, the Minister for Finances can waive Commonwealth debts

3) Free money for chaplaincy

My reading of this, is that it merely concerns past payments (i.e the Government is waiving the debt owed as a result of the payments having been made invalid). It doesn't allow for future funding, that will take a different approach (probably a directed grant to the states).
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Trying to source this, but I think Brandis found a way to save the current chaplaincy programs:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqeAjoBCEAElM9M.png

1) Since payments were invalidly made, payments made are now debts owed to the Commonwealth

2) However, the Minister for Finances can waive Commonwealth debts

3) Free money for chaplaincy
Waiving debts? This is the sort of financial incompetence that gets you into a budget emergency.
 

Arksy

Member
From now until the end of time....the Federal government can not directly fund the chaplaincy program. So the debt waiving trick can only be used for the payments already made. This is so thousands of people aren't out of work tomorrow.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
From now until the end of time....the Federal government can not directly fund the chaplaincy program. So the debt waiving trick can only be used for the payments already made. This is so thousands of people aren't out of work tomorrow.
People losing their jobs has never stopped the Coalition in their quest to have the Government take more money off Australians than it spends on them in the past, so I don't see why it should now.

Yes I'm being sarcastic. I think.

EDIT: On a different note, George Brandis' interview on 7:30 tonight set a new high bar for not answering questions.
 

wonzo

Banned
MP calls anti-chaplain campaign an 'alliance of Greens, gays and atheists'

An out-of-touch “alliance of Greens, gays and atheists” is behind the campaign against the national school chaplaincy program, the Coalition backbencher Andrew Laming has argued.

The Queensland MP made the comment on Thursday morning before the high court's decision to uphold a legal challenge against the program’s federal funding arrangements.

Laming, one of the MPs who lobbied the former prime minister John Howard to introduce the chaplaincy program, suggested the legal challenge was “frivolous and futile”.

“I look directly in the eyes of the loose alliance of Greens, gays and atheists who have mounted this continuous campaign against chaplaincy: you are clearly out of touch,” Laming said as he entered Parliament House on Thursday.

The Greens’ spokeswoman on schools, Penny Wright, dismissed the comment, saying concerns about the program were widespread.

“There are Australians who are constantly telling me that they want to see qualified, professional mental health support for their students [and] their children,” Wright said. “The time for amateurs is over and indeed everyday Australians are telling me this every day and that’s who I’m listening to.”

literally tea party tier shite
 

Arksy

Member
People losing their jobs has never stopped the Coalition in their quest to have the Government take more money off Australians than it spends on them in the past, so I don't see why it should now.

Yes I'm being sarcastic. I think.

EDIT: On a different note, George Brandis' interview on 7:30 tonight set a new high bar for not answering questions.

I'm fairly sure the culture wars fund is exempt from hacking and slashing.
 

lexi

Banned
From now until the end of time....the Federal government can not directly fund the chaplaincy program. So the debt waiving trick can only be used for the payments already made. This is so thousands of people aren't out of work tomorrow.

I wonder if unemployed chaplains have to wait 6 months for benefit payments?
 

Dead Man

Member

Dead Man

Member
In other news that amused me, Brandis has blocked the publication of public comments on proposed changes to the free speech related changes he wants

https://newmatilda.com/2014/06/20/brandis-blocks-public-airing-free-speech-submissions

Politics is littered with irony, but blocking the publication of arguments about free speech is about as ironic as it gets, writes Chris Graham and Max Chalmers.

The Abbott Government has refused to make public any of the 5,000-plus submissions it has received which argue for or against controversial proposed changes to free speech laws.

The government is even refusing to reveal what percentage of submissions opposed a watering down of racial discrimination protections, and what percentage supported them.


It follows a call by the Commonwealth Attorney General George Brandis earlier this year for public comment on proposed changes to section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act (RDA).

...


Prior to the federal election, then Opposition leader Tony Abbott promised if elected, his party would change the laws. In office, a public call for submissions on the proposed changes sparked a massive response, with 5,557 received.

But the Attorney General Department’s website still has not published a single one, and Brandis told a Senate Estimates hearing recently none of them would be.

Following a question by Greens Senator Penny Wright asking why, Brandis replied: “They will not be published because [the submissions] were invited on the explicit terms that they were submissions to government that would be treated in confidence.
”

The AG’s website tells a different story, leaving it open to individuals and organisations to determine whether or not their submissions will be published.

A spokesperson for Senator Brandis declined to respond further when the contradictions between his comments in Senate Estimates, and the disclaimer on the Attorney-General’s website, were pointed out.


Senator Wright told New Matilda: “It seems somewhat ironic that this is supposedly a response to issues around free speech and the government isn’t prepared to make the views of Australians known to each other.”

At the same Estimate’s hearing, Brandis refused to be drawn on how many submissions opposed the government’s changes, and how many were for them, simply saying there were “many” on both sides.

A spokesperson for Amnesty International – which made a submission to the Abbott Government on the issue - also called for them to be published.

“It would be very interesting to see the community concerns that this draft bill has brought about, as well as who opposes it and who is for it,” the spokesperson told New Matilda.

“We don’t actually know of many organisations who are for it. We don’t know the number and that’s why the Attorney-General needs to make it public.”
 

senahorse

Member
Man this government is seriously one of (if not the) worst in my voting history (voted 7 times). Morrison, Brandis, Pyne, Joyce, Turnbull, Hunt (I am sure there are others) are all grubs, what a horrible party.

edit: And let's not forget the biggest grub of them all, The self appointed Minister of Women's Affairs Tony Abbott.
 

bomma_man

Member
well, I don't see how this could go wrong

Tony Abbott is holding secret trade negotiations to fundamentally deregulate Australia's banking and finance sector, according to WikiLeaks documents.

Foreign banks would be given greater access to the Australian market, local bank accounts and financial data could be transferred overseas, and an influx of foreign financial and information technology workers would be allowed, under proposals being discussed by Australian trade negotiators, Fairfax Media reports.
 
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