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AusPoliGAF |OT| Boats? What Boats?

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This makes about as much sense as most of the Coalition's policies. You're saying that the Murdoch press and other media outlets can't be biased against the government because if they really wanted to influence the election results they would, instead of using their legal right to publish their views to the public like they do all the time all over the world, actually engage in a surpassingly costly and difficult attempt to rig an election, breaking the law and putting entire media empires at risk.

Technically they showed they were willing to break the law and put entire media empires at risk for their business interests reasonably recently. It'd be really difficult to rig the election, favorably for them currently though (its a reasonable assumption that the group currently in charge likely leans slightly towards the government of the day if anywhere).
 

Ventron

Member
This makes about as much sense as most of the Coalition's policies. You're saying that the Murdoch press and other media outlets can't be biased against the government because if they really wanted to influence the election results they would, instead of using their legal right to publish their views to the public like they do all the time all over the world, actually engage in a surpassingly costly and difficult attempt to rig an election, breaking the law and putting entire media empires at risk.

I'm not saying they can't be biased against the government. The accusation was that the reason Labor is behind in the polls was because the media is telling everyone to hate them.

A popular catchphrase I hear among the anti-Murdochs is "Thanks Murdoch, but we'll choose our own government." Um, you're doing that anyway. This is what I don't understand. You're not forced to read any one form of media. And even if you are, you're not forced to believe what it tells you.

If the media didn't reflect its readers, then the readers get fed up and stop reading or switch off. Audience is what gives money to the media, not which party is in government.

I think the reason this campaign is happening is because it's easier to blame one media outlet than the many people who have decided for themselves long ago that this government has to go.
 
Technically they showed they were willing to break the law and put entire media empires at risk for their business interests reasonably recently. It'd be really difficult to rig the election, favorably for them currently though (its a reasonable assumption that the group currently in charge likely leans slightly towards the government of the day if anywhere).

It's been widely reported and observed that Newscorp is doing some interesting journalism.

One could argue that it's merely a collection of editorial viewpoints.
I would submit that a Coalition government is far more likely to tear apart the media ownership laws and deregulate the industry - and Newscorp would love that.

For what it's worth - the last few days of coverage have been equally negative towards both parties... at least from what I have been following. However the first week or so was fucking embarassing.

I'm hoping voters have been paying attention to Abbot recently - his debate performances are hopeless. Regardless of the party policies (and it's important - I know), Rudd is definitely more of a 'PM' type - Abbot seems hazy as fuck with everything he delivers.
 
You're not forced to read any one form of media. And even if you are, you're not forced to believe what it tells you.

What is printed in the papers is also displayed outside of newsagents, billboards, interactive displays, radio, online and on television in the form of say; controversy or Newspoll.

The voice of a media empire echoes: uninformed and inactive voters hear that echo and vote for what they assume is the status quo based on that information or opinion.

SO in that case, 'forced' is too strong of a term but 'influenced' certainly isn't beyond imagination.
 
I'm not saying they can't be biased against the government. The accusation was that the reason Labor is behind in the polls was because the media is telling everyone to hate them.

A popular catchphrase I hear among the anti-Murdochs is "Thanks Murdoch, but we'll choose our own government." Um, you're doing that anyway. This is what I don't understand. You're not forced to read any one form of media. And even if you are, you're not forced to believe what it tells you.

If the media didn't reflect its readers, then the readers get fed up and stop reading or switch off. Audience is what gives money to the media, not which party is in government.

I think the reason this campaign is happening is because it's easier to blame one media outlet than the many people who have decided for themselves long ago that this government has to go.

While you may not be 'forced' to read their media - you'll be surprised what they own and influence. Reading any sort of newspaper or news website, there's a damn good chance you're on a Newscorp owned asset.

Ignoring that - you're incorrect about media reflecting its readers. Audience - for the vast majority of news sources actually contributes very little to a newspaper. The vast majority of revenue for these news sources is advertising. The number of readers a paper gets is a regular metric that advertisers may purchase advertising space on - but that's about as far as audience matters.
 
It's been widely reported and observed that Newscorp is doing some interesting journalism.

One could argue that it's merely a collection of editorial viewpoints.
I would submit that a Coalition government is far more likely to tear apart the media ownership laws and deregulate the industry - and Newscorp would love that.

For what it's worth - the last few days of coverage have been equally negative towards both parties... at least from what I have been following. However the first week or so was fucking embarassing.

I'm hoping voters have been paying attention to Abbot recently - his debate performances are hopeless. Regardless of the party policies (and it's important - I know), Rudd is definitely more of a 'PM' type - Abbot seems hazy as fuck with everything he delivers.

I think I may have been confusing. I agree that Murdoch's papers were very pro-LNP earlier.

I was referring to the News of the World thing and also pointing out that rigging the votes would be much harder than using media influence in the current situation.

And as far as it goes , its actually pretty hard to not consume Murdoch media in Australia, since he owns a lot of it. Which is something that shouldn't have happened and Labor have themselves to blame for.
 

Yagharek

Member
Murdoch has made money and gained power no matter which parties are in power. He, and his empire are a pure cancer in any country. The worrying thing is that every party plays his game.
 

Dead Man

Member
It's not that they're hating the government, it's that they're being told by 70% of the media TO hate the government.

Being a bad government is one thing, being FRAMED as a bad government is another.

I would even say Labor are a bad government, but the things the media are whining about are not the reasons they are bad. Or even true.

You see a conspiracy under every rock. If these evil powerful people were so desperate to end the government they'd find a way to rig the counting.

It's a bit of a leap to go from using the media you own in a legal way to subverting the voting process. :/ Not sure why you think they are comparable actions.

I'm not saying they can't be biased against the government. The accusation was that the reason Labor is behind in the polls was because the media is telling everyone to hate them.

A popular catchphrase I hear among the anti-Murdochs is "Thanks Murdoch, but we'll choose our own government." Um, you're doing that anyway. This is what I don't understand. You're not forced to read any one form of media. And even if you are, you're not forced to believe what it tells you.

If the media didn't reflect its readers, then the readers get fed up and stop reading or switch off. Audience is what gives money to the media, not which party is in government.

I think the reason this campaign is happening is because it's easier to blame one media outlet than the many people who have decided for themselves long ago that this government has to go.

Oh. You think the masses make informed decisions and research the facts. How cute.
 
I would even say Labor are a bad government, but the things the media are whining about are not the reasons they are bad.

edUPdd2.jpg


And right on cue!
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
I'm not saying they can't be biased against the government. The accusation was that the reason Labor is behind in the polls was because the media is telling everyone to hate them.

A popular catchphrase I hear among the anti-Murdochs is "Thanks Murdoch, but we'll choose our own government." Um, you're doing that anyway. This is what I don't understand. You're not forced to read any one form of media. And even if you are, you're not forced to believe what it tells you.

If the media didn't reflect its readers, then the readers get fed up and stop reading or switch off. Audience is what gives money to the media, not which party is in government.

I think the reason this campaign is happening is because it's easier to blame one media outlet than the many people who have decided for themselves long ago that this government has to go.

So your supposition is that sections of the media are biased against the government but that they are only reflecting the attitudes of their readers, who formed their viewpoints independently? I strongly disagree.

For example, there's a massive difference between someone who believes in small government and fiscal conservatism because they feel that the market is a superior distributor of resources than the government and a Daily Tele reading swinging voter who thinks the government should take money out of the private sector and hoard it in a low inflation environment because "deficit bad, surplus good". One has an ideological position, the other is misinformed. There are examples of this for all the major policy issues (broadband, asylum seekers, climate change etc...) and they exist on both sides of the spectrum but the majority of it favours the conservative side of politics, even more so when you factor in the inertial, small-target nature of the Coalition's 4 year long campaign.
 

elfinke

Member
I admire your confidence.

You're not the only person to tell me this! You just gotta have it.

Not trying to be smart, just genuinely curious: what do you think will happen in the next 9 days that will cause a swing back to Labor?

As others mentioned in response to this question page prior, I don't believe the polls are indicative of how the election is going to play out. Even the 53/47 results are in polls that have 2% margins of error. Ergo, a swing is not required (though 2% could also mean the real result is 55/45!)

Though another hung parliament result would be a lark, given each party leader is adamant they won't strike to deals to govern in a minority and there are no independents to suck up to this time around, R
etire
IP Windsor :(

That DailyTelegraph front page is hilarious. Damn that's a long bow.
 

Shaneus

Member
The economic policies are basically people voting to preserve their livelihoods and develop their communities economically. Queensland and WA both have vast swathes of land where people living there have very few options when it comes to earning a living.

The anti asylum seeker and anti Aboriginal attitudes are borne out of the isolation and homogeneity of their communities, as well as the fact that the general population in these areas have less education than the cities. We're talking about the whitest, least educated areas in Australia, which narrows people's worldviews somewhat, to the point where their preferred solutions to policy problems don't involve abstractions like social justice or depend so much on stuff like statistical analysis, but are pragmatic and concrete, here-and-now fixes.

Look at Bob Katter'a fixation on ending Woolworths and Coles' duopoly on food retail. He sees two dragons to fight and proposes to go up the mountain and kill them, rather than trying to address the conditions that made that mountain such an attractive place for dragons to congregate in the first place.

A farmer or grazier sees him or herself as a steward of their own land. After all, the farmer who fails to look after their own land exhausts it quickly and bankrupts their business, failing to pass it on to their own kids. This is why they resent these big city greenies who come in and tell them that because of aggregate overuse of the fresh water supply, everyone suffers and desertification and salination are taking place. The farmer resents this because to them, it's as Ann as the nose on Plain's face that the fastest way to get desertification and salination happening on their own land is to stop using water on it. What does this greenie know about farming?

It's the same attitudes that shape views, among white rural Australians, of the welfare state and the services it provides. As far as they're concerned, welfare is for the lazy and services are for the cities. In the here and the now, they don't see the intangible benefits of having a healthy welfare state, not in their own lives nor in those of their friends. As far as they're concerned, their hard earned tax dollars are being unfairly siphoned out of their own pockets and being given to the undeserving or to the cities.

This leads into the prevalence of anti Aboriginal attitudes. In the cities, Aboriginal people have more educational and employment opportunities, more support and more hope, so our exposure to the social problems facing their communities is somewhat lessened. In the country, and especially in more isolated places, these factors don't come into play, so a white country person's exposure to Aboriginal people can often be far less positive.

Perhaps on account of the isolation intrinsic to life as a farmer, people in rural areas tend to rate self-reliance as much higher on the list of virtues than a city person would. This attitude leads people to see one's success or failure in the face of adversity to be a reflection on one's own moral character. This means that they're a hardy and tenaceous lot out there. The trap here, however, is the inability to see the historical and systemic forces that perpetuate the problems in Aboriginal communities and instead see these problems as the culmination of a thousand individual moral failures of the affected Aboriginal people themselves.

Why should we give any special rights or even recognition, they reason, to a bunch of drunken, violent layabouts? They have every chance, they think, to lift themselves out of their situation, clean themselves up and get a job, but they fail to do so consistently. Nope, the thinking goes, they haven't earned the right to even be treated like equals.

Asylum seekers get it even worse, because not only are they coming and taking up tax dollars, but they're also foreign, which means they could be bringing problems into the country that haven't even been dreamed of yet.

TL;DR - The Queensland and Western Australian electorates love them some bootstraps and distrust city intellectuals on account of their pushing impractical pie-in-the-sky schemes onto their practical, self-reliant communities.
Quoting for new page. Also, this needs to get mentioned every time there is a "derp Australia is racist" thread.
 

HolyCheck

I want a tag give me a tag
The economic policies are basically people voting to preserve their livelihoods and develop their communities economically. Queensland and WA both have vast swathes of land where people living there have very few options when it comes to earning a living.

The anti asylum seeker and anti Aboriginal attitudes are borne out of the isolation and homogeneity of their communities, as well as the fact that the general population in these areas have less education than the cities. We're talking about the whitest, least educated areas in Australia, which narrows people's worldviews somewhat, to the point where their preferred solutions to policy problems don't involve abstractions like social justice or depend so much on stuff like statistical analysis, but are pragmatic and concrete, here-and-now fixes.

Look at Bob Katter'a fixation on ending Woolworths and Coles' duopoly on food retail. He sees two dragons to fight and proposes to go up the mountain and kill them, rather than trying to address the conditions that made that mountain such an attractive place for dragons to congregate in the first place.

A farmer or grazier sees him or herself as a steward of their own land. After all, the farmer who fails to look after their own land exhausts it quickly and bankrupts their business, failing to pass it on to their own kids. This is why they resent these big city greenies who come in and tell them that because of aggregate overuse of the fresh water supply, everyone suffers and desertification and salination are taking place. The farmer resents this because to them, it's as Ann as the nose on Plain's face that the fastest way to get desertification and salination happening on their own land is to stop using water on it. What does this greenie know about farming?

It's the same attitudes that shape views, among white rural Australians, of the welfare state and the services it provides. As far as they're concerned, welfare is for the lazy and services are for the cities. In the here and the now, they don't see the intangible benefits of having a healthy welfare state, not in their own lives nor in those of their friends. As far as they're concerned, their hard earned tax dollars are being unfairly siphoned out of their own pockets and being given to the undeserving or to the cities.

This leads into the prevalence of anti Aboriginal attitudes. In the cities, Aboriginal people have more educational and employment opportunities, more support and more hope, so our exposure to the social problems facing their communities is somewhat lessened. In the country, and especially in more isolated places, these factors don't come into play, so a white country person's exposure to Aboriginal people can often be far less positive.

Perhaps on account of the isolation intrinsic to life as a farmer, people in rural areas tend to rate self-reliance as much higher on the list of virtues than a city person would. This attitude leads people to see one's success or failure in the face of adversity to be a reflection on one's own moral character. This means that they're a hardy and tenaceous lot out there. The trap here, however, is the inability to see the historical and systemic forces that perpetuate the problems in Aboriginal communities and instead see these problems as the culmination of a thousand individual moral failures of the affected Aboriginal people themselves.

Why should we give any special rights or even recognition, they reason, to a bunch of drunken, violent layabouts? They have every chance, they think, to lift themselves out of their situation, clean themselves up and get a job, but they fail to do so consistently. Nope, the thinking goes, they haven't earned the right to even be treated like equals.

Asylum seekers get it even worse, because not only are they coming and taking up tax dollars, but they're also foreign, which means they could be bringing problems into the country that haven't even been dreamed of yet.

TL;DR - The Queensland and Western Australian electorates love them some bootstraps and distrust city intellectuals on account of their pushing impractical pie-in-the-sky schemes onto their practical, self-reliant communities.

As some one who spent time growing up in rural aus, and most of my family come from farming heritage.

spot on. well written and all correct.
 

HolyCheck

I want a tag give me a tag
It reminds me of when probably 4 or 5 years ago, my cousin excitedly SMS'd me that there was an asian busker in town.

The first asian he'd seen in his town of 5000 people in his 20 years of living there.
 
<3 Antony

Look at Bob Katter'a fixation on ending Woolworths and Coles' duopoly on food retail. He sees two dragons to fight and proposes to go up the mountain and kill them, rather than trying to address the conditions that made that mountain such an attractive place for dragons to congregate in the first place.

Just got to say that this is brilliant.
 

Dead Man

Member
All the more bitter tears for my bidet, now at 11:1!

Without wanting to cast dispersions or rough generalisations too far, I wonder how much correlation and cross-over there is between people who frequent TAB/Sportsbet/etc and vote Liberal, versus those who vote left?

Aspersions. Sorry.
 

senahorse

Member
At this point I just hope the swing to the coalition is not enough for them to gain control of the senate, it's unlikely but after the wipeout we witnessed in Qld nothing would surprise me.
 

wonzo

Banned
At this point I just hope the swing to the coalition is not enough for them to gain control of the senate, it's unlikely but after the wipeout we witnessed in Qld nothing would surprise me.
The most likely scenario is the Coalition having to negotiate with a small group of center-right independents/small parties, though that might change if Antony Green is correct and they actually cannibalize the Coalition's Senate Seat's thanks to all the messed up preferential deals.
 

Ventron

Member
At this point I just hope the swing to the coalition is not enough for them to gain control of the senate, it's unlikely but after the wipeout we witnessed in Qld nothing would surprise me.

I doubt it. There were too many Greens elected at the last election for this to be likely.
Also in that video Antony Green (who I man-love as a software engineer brotha) said the Libs could lose senate spots to Right minor parties.

The wipeout in QLD was due to a different voting system that used to help Labor but came back to bite them badly when Katter split their vote.
 
The Queensland wipe might not be as bad as that would indicate at the Fed level (also some of it was distaste for asset sales). Campbell's policies haven't been as sunshine as he promised. Its probably why he's been staying relatively quiet. Still expecting Queensland to skew right though.
 
I doubt it. There were too many Greens elected at the last election for this to be likely.
Also in that video Antony Green (who I man-love as a software engineer brotha) said the Libs could lose senate spots to Right minor parties.

The wipeout in QLD was due to a different voting system that used to help Labor but came back to bite them badly when Katter split their vote.

Was Katter's city pitch different to his country one? The only stuff I got from him in my electorate was a flyer saying Newmann supports gay marriage. Can't see that splitting Labor vote (unless they decided to vote LNP as a result).
 
Am I reading the crikey stuff right? Labor are likely to pick up a seat in Queensland. That would not have been my guess. Any clue why that is projected?
 
Am I reading the crikey stuff right? Labor are likely to pick up a seat in Queensland. That would not have been my guess. Any clue why that is projected?

The Crikey article itself comments on that and can't work it out.

Theories why it won't happen: They are apaprently subsamples from nation polls that show that (so they are likely not well distributed and there's a fairly sharp divide between Brisbane and the Sunshine/Gold Coast and the rest of the state).

Theories why it may happen: The mess of minor party preferences. Katter's actually preferencing Labor over the LNP. That could make a difference in some seats (since Katter may pinch LNP votes in rural areas and redirect them to Labor). Campbell Newman has done significant brand damage amongst the young urban voters who actually voted for him (more privatizing of hospitals and services, job cuts, and the specter of asset sales) which means the absolute wipe result is disappearing quickly. This is actually pretty normal for Queensland. We have no Upper House to act as a check so a party with a clear majority tends to go flat out on their goals. Swing voters get disillusioned when the change they wanted turned out to be the "wrong" change.
 

Dead Man

Member
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-29/workchoices-sudmalis/4920352

The Liberal candiate for Gilmore Ann Sudmalis has told an election forum she can't respond to a question about workplace policy until after the September election.

When quizzed, Ms Sudmalis reacted angrily and wouldn't say whether a Coalition government would re-introduce the controversial 'Work Choices' legislation.


Ms Sudmalis likened the question to fiction and archaeology.

"We are actually not talking about a Stephen King fiction here, we're not digging up bones," she said.

"Any workplace relations legislation is on the table after the election not before, so sorry I can't answer your question.

"It is exactly as it is right now right through to the election and it will be reviewed after the election and that has been made perfectly clear to everybody."
 
The Queensland wipe might not be as bad as that would indicate at the Fed level (also some of it was distaste for asset sales). Campbell's policies haven't been as sunshine as he promised. Its probably why he's been staying relatively quiet. Still expecting Queensland to skew right though.

I did get a letter from him in the mail today telling me he'd created thousands of jobs and lowered unemployment. *snorts* What a dickhead.

edUPdd2.jpg


And right on cue!

Sigh. Rudd actually had some good things to say in the debate last night. It was funny listening to Abbott's conclusion. Seems he can't make up his mind about whether to keep on with the "labor stinks" line or turn around and play the "they're so negative, I'm a victim" card. As a result his speech was all over the place. I don't know how many people picked up on the irony of "all this government wants to do is complain about me" though.
 
Disappointed he didn't answer the NSA question.

It was probably difficult for him to answer, to be fair :p I'm disappointed he didn't get to answer a lot of questions really. One hour isn't much. It's great that he did it though. I can't imagine Abbott even knowing what Reddit is.

Glad to be out of there tbh:s Reddit's layout confuses the heck out of me, and that upvote system kinda sucks for everything that isn't "K Rudd answering the most popular questions".
 

markot

Banned
Coalition to encourage public schools to go independent

In its key campaign announcement today, the Coalition promised extra money to encourage government schools to become independent.

Opposition education spokesman Christopher Pyne unveiled an Independent Schools Fund worth $70 million, to help about 1,500 public schools make the change.


"It's not the affluent schools that are embracing this," he said.

"It's actually the schools that can see the same kind of decision making power - how they would be able to change that school and that community."

Mr Pyne launched the policy with Mr Abbott at Penrith Christian school, which describes homosexuality as an abomination on its website.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-29/labor-claims-2410b-hole-in-coalition27s-budget-cuts/4922026

oh godddddddd
 

Dead Man

Member

You missed this part:

Mr Pyne launched the policy with Mr Abbott at Penrith Christian school, which describes homosexuality as an abomination on its website.

The Opposition Leader defended the use of the school as the policy launch venue, saying "obviously I don't agree with that statement".

"This is a good school and it's a school which has been supported by people like [local Labor MP] David Bradbury and [former Schools Minister] Peter Garrett and I respectfully disagree with lots of things that are said on that particular subject and obviously I disagree with that statement," Mr Abbott said.
 
Pretty sure public schools going independent is a good thing guys.
All I've heard is positive things. The Coalition didn't invent this, it's already happening.
 
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